League 1 unsustainable?

[Cb2]

23 hours ago, EssexRL said:

A sobering thought and not implausible. I have to say I do wonder if my club will be around next season at least as a semi-pro one. RL will become more entrenched in the 'heartland' which is really only a handful of towns and cities in the north. If it was big across the region and in all the urban centres then that would be something but it isn't. When I go to somewhere like Darlington (where my partner is from), the profile of the game is about as high as it is in Dulwich!

None of this bodes well for the future of the game. (In London that future feels like a few amateur clubs dotted around the capital and, maybe, Broncos).

I’d say this is becoming more and more likely from what I hear - re Skolars. 

[EssexRL]

10 minutes ago, Cb2 said:

I’d say this is becoming more and more likely from what I hear - re Skolars. 

Yes, sadly.

[The Masked Poster]

On 01/09/2023 at 17:04, Spidey said:

The old summer conference only worked due to winter players & ru players wanting something to do in their off seasons. The investment needs to be with juniors and schools over a long period of time

I'd argue (purely from memory of course) that the RLC was at its peak circa 1998-2000. That's quite a long period of time and players could have been developed- (many not even born) - and clubs grown since then. But the will simply wasn't there.

I'm sure the argument was about money not being freely available and I'm sure there's something in that but how costly has the decision to not back the RLC been? I'd say it was pretty huge in terms of lost potential. And without sounding melodramatic, I think it will prove to be a real lost opportunity in years to come. 

[Sports Prophet]

2 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

I'd argue (purely from memory of course) that the RLC was at its peak circa 1998-2000. That's quite a long period of time and players could have been developed- (many not even born) - and clubs grown since then. But the will simply wasn't there.

I'm sure the argument was about money not being freely available and I'm sure there's something in that but how costly has the decision to not back the RLC been? I'd say it was pretty huge in terms of lost potential. And without sounding melodramatic, I think it will prove to be a real lost opportunity in years to come. 

Interesting. My thoughts of the RLC peak would have been around the 2003-07 mark. Admittedly, I only really remember it from around 01 or 02. The RLC National was going great although there was reasonable movement at the top level. Wasn’t it NL3 there for a few years under the old pro NL1 and 2 structure?

I remember some really inspiring names in there. Coventry, Fev Lions, Teeside Steelers, Stags, St Albans, Essex Eels, Manchester Knights, Sth London Storm as well as a sprinkling of NCL in B Dudley Hill, Sheffield and Hudd’s Underbank. With the regional divisions below, it had so much potential and is my memory of the game being at its national peak.

[The Masked Poster]

3 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Interesting. My thoughts of the RLC peak would have been around the 2003-07 mark. Admittedly, I only really remember it from around 01 or 02. The RLC National was going great although there was reasonable movement at the top level. Wasn’t it NL3 there for a few years under the old pro NL1 and 2 structure?

I remember some really inspiring names in there. Coventry, Fev Lions, Teeside Steelers, Stags, St Albans, Essex Eels, Manchester Knights, Sth London Storm as well as a sprinkling of NCL in B Dudley Hill, Sheffield and Hudd’s Underbank. With the regional divisions below, it had so much potential and is my memory of the game being at its national peak.

Some will naturally have fallen by the wayside but the greater number of clubs, the greater chance that more will survive. We could have had a fair number of decent amateur/semi pro clubs genuinely spread around the country. Instead clubs like Oxford and Hemel have pretty much disappeared. 

[Sports Prophet]

17 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

Some will naturally have fallen by the wayside but the greater number of clubs, the greater chance that more will survive. We could have had a fair number of decent amateur/semi pro clubs genuinely spread around the country. Instead clubs like Oxford and Hemel have pretty much disappeared. 

Have Hemel disappeared? That would be a bigger tragedy than Skolars going under.

[The Masked Poster]

1 hour ago, Sports Prophet said:

Have Hemel disappeared? That would be a bigger tragedy than Skolars going under.

They've not dissapeared as such, just a lot less visible. They were hardly Real Madrid mind. ..

[Ivarr the Boneless]

2 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Have Hemel disappeared? That would be a bigger tragedy than Skolars going under.

Can't agree. The loss of either club would be awful for Southern RL. There's too few kids playing the sport down south already, wipe out either junior set up and the issue exacerbates.

Skolars also play an important role in allowing lads with potential to develop up to Broncos performance levels whilst playing at step three. Look at Will Lovell - bombed out by Broncos, went to Skolars and now a mainstay of the Broncos set up again, or Jarred Basett. It's unlikely he would have stepped straight from West Warriors to second tier rugby. 

Without a professional Skolars it's quite possible the next Lovell or Bassett will be lost to union.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Ivarr the Boneless

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, Ivarr the Boneless said:

Can't agree. The loss of either club would be awful for Southern RL. There's too few kids playing the sport down south already, wipe out either junior set up and the issue exacerbates.

Skolars also play an important role in allowing lads with potential to develop up to Broncos performance levels whilst playing at step three. Look at Will Lovell - bombed out by Broncos, went to Skolars and now a mainstay of the Broncos set up again, or Jarred Basett. It's unlikely he would have stepped straight from West Warriors to second tier rugby. 

Without a professional Skolars it's quite possible the next Lovell or Bassett will be lost to union.

Fair enough. It’s hard to disagree with anything you’ve said.

[watcherofRL]

On 28/08/2023 at 11:32, crashmon said:

This thread was about the sustainability of League 1.  I gave an answer with that in context

As regarding RL in whole, in the NH is pretty much got no professional future,  SH no longer need a strong NH competition with the rise of Pacific Islands and the failure of the NH to expand out of the M62 has pretty much doomed it to being a small insignificant sport outside of australasia over the next 5-10 years.

Sad but true - maybe should just get on with it and change name of sport to Northern rugby league but that acronym has already gone

[watcherofRL]

On 01/09/2023 at 19:48, The Future is League said:

I don't see any clubs queueing up to join League 1, and why would they.

Why would any club even apply to join League 1 from this mythical place called the heartlands after the way the Manchester Rangers were treated, even if Manchester isn't counted as the heartlands, but is very near by. 

Why would any ambitious French team join want to join when they would be expected to pay the expenses of any visiting teams, and who knows what restrictions the RFL would put on any new clubs from the Midlands and the South, probably some sort of bond out of any clubs reach

The fact of the matter is that the RFL haven't a clue what to do about League 1

Or appear to care

[Cb2]

2 hours ago, Ivarr the Boneless said:

Can't agree. The loss of either club would be awful for Southern RL. There's too few kids playing the sport down south already, wipe out either junior set up and the issue exacerbates.

Skolars also play an important role in allowing lads with potential to develop up to Broncos performance levels whilst playing at step three. Look at Will Lovell - bombed out by Broncos, went to Skolars and now a mainstay of the Broncos set up again, or Jarred Basett. It's unlikely he would have stepped straight from West Warriors to second tier rugby. 

Without a professional Skolars it's quite possible the next Lovell or Bassett will be lost to union.

100% agree.

Skolars play a vital role in bringing juniors through and are a natural destination for players that don’t quite make it at Broncos (so many examples here) & with the players like Lovell & Macani who have gone back - I remember Dave Williams doing so a number of years ago as well. 
 

Sadly, I think it might be too late - without significant new investment or club sale I think Skolars are gone from League 1. 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

9 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Interesting. My thoughts of the RLC peak would have been around the 2003-07 mark. Admittedly, I only really remember it from around 01 or 02. The RLC National was going great although there was reasonable movement at the top level. Wasn’t it NL3 there for a few years under the old pro NL1 and 2 structure?

I remember some really inspiring names in there. Coventry, Fev Lions, Teeside Steelers, Stags, St Albans, Essex Eels, Manchester Knights, Sth London Storm as well as a sprinkling of NCL in B Dudley Hill, Sheffield and Hudd’s Underbank. With the regional divisions below, it had so much potential and is my memory of the game being at its national peak.

The big change happened when the NCL and community game moved from Winter to Summer. Before that, National League 3/Conference National was the biggest gig in town outside of the professional divisions. When NCL switched to Summer, Conference National then became NCL Division 3, much to the dismay of some of the clubs involved, as it meant that their profile was slashed overnight. Previously, NL3/Conf South had enjoyed a much higher profile, with lengthy match reports in the trade press, and results and league tables on the BBC. Then it all disappeared because the NCL was the higher profile competition of the two, and it no longer made sense to provide column inches to a competition that was now 4 levels below the pro game as opposed to just 1 level below.

[newbe]

Don't forget Hemel Stags won NCL 3, before they went to league1.  Held there own for 2 seasons, then the RFL changed the league structure.  That's why the expansion clubs struggled.

[Hemel Rugby League]

Hemel Stags are very much alive and well. Since leaving L1 in 2018 the club has had difficulties in re-establishing its adult section. However, this season the club made significant progress in the East Region competition where it finished second. Most significantly its entire squad was made up of players who had come through their junior ranks with the majority being under 20 years of age albeit there was one player in his 40's who played in Stags juniors in the 1990's. A far cry from the club's national leagues days when the majority of players were shipped in from well  beyond Hemel.

Hemel have remained a stronghold of junior rugby league with large numbers of players joining London Broncos Scholarship and Academy teams. Furthermore, this season saw Hemel as the dominant force in the creation of Girls RL in the region.

At the same time the facilities at Pennine Way have undergone significant and continuing improvement to make the stadium the envy of most other sporting clubs in the region.

In the coming weeks the Pennine Way Sports Stadium will be the centre of community rugby league in the South with the London Origin Series being staged there along the the Harry Jepson Final; the SCL Final; and representative matches involving London, the East, Midlands and the South West

All of this is happening as a by-product of the Stags pulling out of League 1. The club much prefers its current situation rather than the one where it seemed to be judged on its place in the League 1 table, a competition that as long ago as 2014 was doomed.

Finally, a note on Will Lovell. Will was rejected by London Broncos for a place in their Academy squad but he was able to stay in the sport and get a second chance  thanks to the existence of the North London Stags - a team created by Hemel Stags in association with London Skolars to compete in the National U18 Youth League. After one season Skolars saw no future in the team and withdrew from the partnership and the Stags continued alone.

 

 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

On 05/09/2023 at 15:57, EssexRL said:

A sobering thought and not implausible. I have to say I do wonder if my club will be around next season at least as a semi-pro one. RL will become more entrenched in the 'heartland' which is really only a handful of towns and cities in the north. If it was big across the region and in all the urban centres then that would be something but it isn't. When I go to somewhere like Darlington (where my partner is from), the profile of the game is about as high as it is in Dulwich!

None of this bodes well for the future of the game. (In London that future feels like a few amateur clubs dotted around the capital and, maybe, Broncos).

Yeah I am not hopeful Skolars will be there either...shame 

[ATLANTISMAN]

1 hour ago, Hemel Rugby League said:

Hemel Stags are very much alive and well. Since leaving L1 in 2018 the club has had difficulties in re-establishing its adult section. However, this season the club made significant progress in the East Region competition where it finished second. Most significantly its entire squad was made up of players who had come through their junior ranks with the majority being under 20 years of age albeit there was one player in his 40's who played in Stags juniors in the 1990's. A far cry from the club's national leagues days when the majority of players were shipped in from well  beyond Hemel.

Hemel have remained a stronghold of junior rugby league with large numbers of players joining London Broncos Scholarship and Academy teams. Furthermore, this season saw Hemel as the dominant force in the creation of Girls RL in the region.

At the same time the facilities at Pennine Way have undergone significant and continuing improvement to make the stadium the envy of most other sporting clubs in the region.

In the coming weeks the Pennine Way Sports Stadium will be the centre of community rugby league in the South with the London Origin Series being staged there along the the Harry Jepson Final; the SCL Final; and representative matches involving London, the East, Midlands and the South West

All of this is happening as a by-product of the Stags pulling out of League 1. The club much prefers its current situation rather than the one where it seemed to be judged on its place in the League 1 table, a competition that as long ago as 2014 was doomed.

Finally, a note on Will Lovell. Will was rejected by London Broncos for a place in their Academy squad but he was able to stay in the sport and get a second chance  thanks to the existence of the North London Stags - a team created by Hemel Stags in association with London Skolars to compete in the National U18 Youth League. After one season Skolars saw no future in the team and withdrew from the partnership and the Stags continued alone.

 

 

Have seen Will Lovell a few times this season he has come on leaps and bounds good player:)

 

Paul

[Archie Gordon]

5 hours ago, Ivarr the Boneless said:

Can't agree. The loss of either club would be awful for Southern RL. There's too few kids playing the sport down south already, wipe out either junior set up and the issue exacerbates.

Skolars also play an important role in allowing lads with potential to develop up to Broncos performance levels whilst playing at step three. Look at Will Lovell - bombed out by Broncos, went to Skolars and now a mainstay of the Broncos set up again, or Jarred Basett. It's unlikely he would have stepped straight from West Warriors to second tier rugby. 

Without a professional Skolars it's quite possible the next Lovell or Bassett will be lost to union.

The interchange of players between Broncos and Skolars has dried up - it's all one way now and everything below the Broncos, including the community game, has suffered because of Broncos moving to PT. 

Lovell and Bassett are RL players - without Skolars they'd still be playing RL. Union is not really where players are lost to. But it's hard to see what's next for Skolars without the expected cash injection - they serve no purpose as an uncompetitive semi-pro side.

[Archie Gordon]

1 hour ago, Hemel Rugby League said:

...

In the coming weeks the Pennine Way Sports Stadium will be the centre of community rugby league in the South with the London Origin Series being staged there along the the Harry Jepson Final; the SCL Final; and representative matches involving London, the East, Midlands and the South West

...

The RFL should be trumpeting this activity (maybe they are). My next 3 Saturdays are booked up.

[Ivarr the Boneless]

45 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

 

Lovell and Bassett are RL players - without Skolars they'd still be playing RL. Union is not really where players are lost to. But it's hard to see what's next for Skolars without the expected cash injection - they serve no purpose as an uncompetitive semi-pro side.

Not so sure. If there's no semi pro RL and a union side offers a few hundred a week?

Oxford certainly lost a few to union. A local union side was paying up to 1k a match in regional rugby  Some Oxford players were on less than a tenth of that with national travel. Others played both codes and were lost due to injuries sustained late in the union season. One was lost to England RU 7's squad on a full time contract 

The lack of a semi pro side would also make league less appealing to young lads on the fringes of professional status at rugby with dual code opportunities.

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Ivarr the Boneless

[Archie Gordon]

4 minutes ago, Ivarr the Boneless said:

Not so sure. If there's no semi pro RL and a union side offers a few hundred a week?

Oxford certainly lost a few to union. A local union side was paying up to 1k a match in regional rugby  Some Oxford players were on less than a tenth of that with national travel. Others played both codes and were lost due to injuries sustained late in the union season. One was lost to England RU 7's squad on a full time contract 

The lack of a semi pro side would also make league less appealing to young lads on the fringes of professional status at rugby with dual code opportunities.

 

Some certainly go to union but not that many. Bassett, an example you gave, would still be at WW if not a semi-pro. And there is semi-pro rugby available - it's just via the Broncos now, rendering Skolars as an L1 outfit a bit surplus to requirements. 

[del capo]

2 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

The big change happened when the NCL and community game moved from Winter to Summer. Before that, National League 3/Conference National was the biggest gig in town outside of the professional divisions. When NCL switched to Summer, Conference National then became NCL Division 3, much to the dismay of some of the clubs involved, as it meant that their profile was slashed overnight. Previously, NL3/Conf South had enjoyed a much higher profile, with lengthy match reports in the trade press, and results and league tables on the BBC. Then it all disappeared because the NCL was the higher profile competition of the two, and it no longer made sense to provide column inches to a competition that was now 4 levels below the pro game as opposed to just 1 level below.

The NCL finally gave up on the British winter in 2011 but the RFL had already by then set up summer heartland competitions of a sort. The NCL move provoked the vast majority of  winter community clubs to follow suit thereafter..

The ' Big Change ' had started though much earlier , caused primarily by the constant chopping and changing within the RFL's  non pro playing structures , the basic unstable nature of the competitions and the clubs themselves , not helped by the short terminism of  central planning and  funding, removal of development officers etc. A lot of clubs sought to run before they could walk, falling over as a consequence. League 1  , their destination target is of course a standard on the park ( if not off it ) generally higher than the NCL. and when these clubs collided with their northern  counterparts the results caused a loss of the Emperors clothes and with that the profile. And we must never forget that there is no pyramid structure into the semi professional ranks - it's an invitation only members club up there......

Unless you have a lot of money invested  and assured for a very long time there are no short cuts to the top. And their is no success without roots and significant membership. Clubs like Coventry, Nottingham and yes Hemel have  learned that lesson. with a  healthy future to look forward to. Others can  do the same.

But they are entitled to relevant and meaningful administration from the Powers that be with competition structures that support  their aspirations.  The recent  and latest re-organisation of the Southern playing offers should help as there now seems to be a sense of what is needed and realistically can be delivered.

We have to be optimistic. Time will tell

 

[OriginalMrC]

My prediction and it's not based on any real facts is that over the next couple of years Skolars will go, Cornwall will go and Midlands Hurricanes will relocate again to a venue further North. North Wales Crusaders will hopefully hang in there as Wales only representative. We'll end up with the only semi pro/pro club in the South of England being the basket case that is Broncos. 

On the plus side I can see a strengthening of the amateur game in the South. It's a area of real potential growth and the RFL should be looking at this whole participation numbers continue to shrink in the North. 

 

 

[Ivarr the Boneless]

59 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

Some certainly go to union but not that many. Bassett, an example you gave, would still be at WW if not a semi-pro. And there is semi-pro rugby available - it's just via the Broncos now, rendering Skolars as an L1 outfit a bit surplus to requirements. 

We may have to agree to differ but I don't view a player capable of playing step two getting stuck in basically recreational rugby as much better for Southern RL than losing them to RU.

I'd also query whether the semi pro RL set up down south is going to / does rival RU in terms of either money or playing standards. 

You certainly won't see every southern based semi pro capable RL player jump but with such a small pool the loss of small numbers would be damaging. I fear the biggest issue would be medium to long term as fewer dual code lads of a good standard opt for league.

[Archie Gordon]

A couple of people have now spoken positively about the community game in the South, and its growth potential. The SCL has gone from 14 teams to 8 in just a few years. Those 8 aren't all in good shape. I'm not seeing any kind of plan to arrest the decline never mind build it up.

To be clear, I think the game *can* grow. But it needs a plan. It can't be left to individual clubs (or even just individuals) to find their own way.