Castleford stadium.

[Fevrover]

37 minutes ago, Griff said:

28? 

I apologise  - TWENTY FIVE . 

[Fevrover]

28 minutes ago, Ovenden Grunt said:

It only takes one game!

Don't yer think we know that lol .

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

On the flipside, maybe they are just demanding the bare minimum expected nowadays. 

Sticking a carpet/modern flooring in the lounges isn't gonna add thousands, but it should be done. 

Are we really that lacking in standards in RL? 

 

Having sat in the first row of seats behind the, ahem, "Directors' Box" at Cas I can confidently confirm that yes we are really that lacking in standards 

I remember watching Neil Hudgell walk up the rickety steps into it with Paul and other Directors, and have a quick look around, no doubt thinking... "...and so we spent 2 years constructing complicated EU grant applications, begging councillors for funds, squeezing money from every small "regeneration plan" pathway we could find until it all added up into enough money to build the new stand required by Super League licensing standards, when all we needed to do was move some seats around and publish some CAD images, so we could spend more than 25 years' TV money on nothing more than a few better players in order to finish 11th often enough?" 

It's just not good enough. never has been. Licensing should have had teeth. 

[Dave T]

10 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

 

Having sat in the first row of seats behind the, ahem, "Directors' Box" at Cas I can confidently confirm that yes we are really that lacking in standards 

I remember watching Neil Hudgell walk up the rickety steps into it with Paul and other Directors, and have a quick look around, no doubt thinking... "...and so we spent 2 years constructing complicated EU grant applications, begging councillors for funds, squeezing money from every small "regeneration plan" pathway we could find until it all added up into enough money to build the new stand required by Super League licensing standards, when all we needed to do was move some seats around and publish some CAD images, so we could spend more than 25 years' TV money on nothing more than a few better players in order to finish 11th often enough?" 

It's just not good enough. never has been. Licensing should have had teeth. 

Oh I absolutely know we are miles behind where we nerd to be, and that's why some standards are starting to be brought in, that have consequences. 

My point was more around people being critical of these. Surely we should applaud anything that drives improvements. I find it crazy that people would be critical of the system that is forcing Cas to actually do something. 

I accept the point that maybe the standards should be even higher, but the fact the current ones arent even being met shows how poor our standards are. 

[idrewthehaggis]

I once got all terse about the moribund state of Cas' and others grounds.

Now I do not. 

To me, it is an equation that values SL survival on the pitch rather than off.

Fair dos, snap Evalds and that Richardson (remember him?) off us Salfordians with bigger wages. Ah well.

But ultimately it is the supporters that suffers. It is they who are being short changed, patronized and treated as third case citizens with ram shackled stands, crumbling terraces, medieval toilets and fairground level hospitality, whilst the latter day "Gerald Weavers" comfortably plumps his backside on the new padded seats.

The sad matter is if you added up the cost of repairs over the decades it could have afforded brand new facilities in a host of RL stadiums. 

And surely these grounds break various modern Laws on accessibility, safety and hygiene. Come on kids, Cas aren't alone on this. Is it OK that the "disabled" section at Wakefield is a small wooden shed with dirty plastic chairs? Does a rotten Odsall tick all the necessary inclusive boxes? 

Now as I said, I sort dont blame the clubs entirely. Certainly not the fans. My finger points towards the cozy culpability of the RFL and perhaps IMG on not either imposing better standards and not directing additional resources so ye supporter can enjoy games in safe covered stands and retreat to a clean toilet?

That finger extends to town councils and developers.

Just get it built. 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by idrewthehaggis

[Griff]

Do you have costings for this or have you just made it up?

[Taffy Tiger]

19 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

 

Having sat in the first row of seats behind the, ahem, "Directors' Box" at Cas I can confidently confirm that yes we are really that lacking in standards 

I remember watching Neil Hudgell walk up the rickety steps into it with Paul and other Directors, and have a quick look around, no doubt thinking... "...and so we spent 2 years constructing complicated EU grant applications, begging councillors for funds, squeezing money from every small "regeneration plan" pathway we could find until it all added up into enough money to build the new stand required by Super League licensing standards, when all we needed to do was move some seats around and publish some CAD images, so we could spend more than 25 years' TV money on nothing more than a few better players in order to finish 11th often enough?" 

It's just not good enough. never has been. Licensing should have had teeth. 

Not sure about the highlighted part HKB . Cas have finished 7th,7th,9th,5th,3rd,1st,5th,5th and 4th in recent years . We may be guilty of spending most of TV money on players , but we have no choice as we are only self funding SL team, however I'm sure you will agree that our record is much better than '11th often enough' . 

[Taffy Tiger]

On 12/09/2023 at 19:05, DEANO said:

Nothing will change. Cas we’re told 20 some years ago to improve their stadium if they wanted to remain in sl 

We were , but times have changed. Too many teams were going into heavy debt as a result of trying to meet new stadia requirements and so RFL changed the criteria . Cas no longer had to upgrade WR . We still don't have to upgrade WR , but if we don't then it will cost us a point , which when combined with the point we can't get for location , would leave us with only 18 achievable points out of the 20. With that in mind , we have no choice but to put into place Plan B, if Planning Permission isn't forthcoming (I still believe it will be though , hopefully) . IMG have set criteria for teams to get the extra point , and Cas , to their credit , have found a Plan B that can achieve this . 

I fully take on board that this isn't perhaps what IMG were intending to happen with their new system , but this kind of thing will always happen in situations like this where points are awarded for specific attributes . You can't blame Cas , in fact you could say that we have been very resourceful in finding an alternative way around the stadium situation. Indeed , in moving seats to Princess Street stand , this will also reduce capacity of ground , hence more points (well fractions of a point) for utilisation of stadium.

That said , Cas fans would love to see new stadium plans come to fruition , and I do agree that £2M would be much better spent in upgrading the ground , all Cas fans would agree , but needs must I'm afraid.

 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

49 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

Not sure about the highlighted part HKB . Cas have finished 7th,7th,9th,5th,3rd,1st,5th,5th and 4th in recent years . We may be guilty of spending most of TV money on players , but we have no choice as we are only self funding SL team, however I'm sure you will agree that our record is much better than '11th often enough' . 

I’ll agree with you, data is what it is. However that makes it even worse: You didn’t even need to spend what you did to survive, so you could maybe have afforded more ground improvements with a slightly cheaper squad and still stayed up!

 

 

[Taffy Tiger]

53 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I’ll agree with you, data is what it is. However that makes it even worse: You didn’t even need to spend what you did to survive, so you could maybe have afforded more ground improvements with a slightly cheaper squad and still stayed up!

 

 

In hindsight I think you may be right , however , as it turned out we needed to spend even more at the end of the season to try to secure SL status . Unfortunately we don't have any rich owners to put any money into the club . Please don't think that is a dig at any team whose owners/directors put money into the team , that is exactly how it should be , we just have it the wrong way around , as we are repaying our benefactor at above market rate . Sadly , that has been the case now for some years . There are talks of a new owner , and in an ideal world , together with upgrading of ground , if these can both happen , that would put us in a very strong position going forward. Until then it's a case of getting by however we can I'm afraid .

[DEANO]

Absolute tosh. When sky bought the game those were the rules they implemented. Some clubs have been denied access due to their stadiums 

[idrewthehaggis]

2 hours ago, Taffy Tiger said:

We were , but times have changed. Too many teams were going into heavy debt as a result of trying to meet new stadia requirements and so RFL changed the criteria . Cas no longer had to upgrade WR . We still don't have to upgrade WR , but if we don't then it will cost us a point , which when combined with the point we can't get for location , would leave us with only 18 achievable points out of the 20. With that in mind , we have no choice but to put into place Plan B, if Planning Permission isn't forthcoming (I still believe it will be though , hopefully) . IMG have set criteria for teams to get the extra point , and Cas , to their credit , have found a Plan B that can achieve this . 

I fully take on board that this isn't perhaps what IMG were intending to happen with their new system , but this kind of thing will always happen in situations like this where points are awarded for specific attributes . You can't blame Cas , in fact you could say that we have been very resourceful in finding an alternative way around the stadium situation. Indeed , in moving seats to Princess Street stand , this will also reduce capacity of ground , hence more points (well fractions of a point) for utilisation of stadium.

That said , Cas fans would love to see new stadium plans come to fruition , and I do agree that £2M would be much better spent in upgrading the ground , all Cas fans would agree , but needs must I'm afraid.

 

At least you are being honest and your post vindicates mine in stating Cas - and others - precariously think they have to postpone an upgrade to balance staying in SL or having functioning facilities. 

Just to say Salford City FC managed to construct a wholly new modular 5k capacity stadium for £5m and for the same amount the 2000 members of FC United of Manchester drew together funds from their fan base and various grant as/loan to construct a completely brand novel ground.

So if in the Shock City it can be done, then so it can be achieved in the beating heartland of RL,

[Taffy Tiger]

23 minutes ago, DEANO said:

Absolute tosh. When sky bought the game those were the rules they implemented. Some clubs have been denied access due to their stadiums 

True Deano but iirc too many clubs were struggling financially in trying to afford new/suitable stadia . As a result of that the RFL decided that this wouldn't be a factor going forward , although minimum standards did , and still do have to be met , as per IMG criteria ie minimum capacity , seating etc . I think that this has also probably always been the case to a certain extent , but London played at The Hive when they were promoted and that was deemed as the standard necessary .

[Taffy Tiger]

1 minute ago, idrewthehaggis said:

At least you are being honest and your post vindicates mine in stating Cas - and others - precariously think they have to postpone an upgrade to balance staying in SL or having functioning facilities. 

Just to say Salford City FC managed to construct a wholly new modular 5k capacity stadium for £5m and for the same amount the 2000 members of FC United of Manchester drew together funds from their fan base and various grant as/loan to construct a completely brand novel ground.

So if in the Shock City it can be done, then so it can be achieved in the beating heartland of RL,

Good post idth , and I agree that the new grading criteria is taking away some of the focus on what is needed to grow the game . Salford did well , but Cas just can't afford any upgrades on our own , and so we are relying on the money form the Axiom development . There is money promised and waiting for an upgrade , should it be given planning permission . I don't think £5M for a new 5k ground is feasible nowadays , and  5k capacity wouldn't be big enough for Cas .

[DEANO]

1 hour ago, Taffy Tiger said:

True Deano but iirc too many clubs were struggling financially in trying to afford new/suitable stadia . As a result of that the RFL decided that this wouldn't be a factor going forward , although minimum standards did , and still do have to be met , as per IMG criteria ie minimum capacity , seating etc . I think that this has also probably always been the case to a certain extent , but London played at The Hive when they were promoted and that was deemed as the standard necessary .

Nah don’t buy it. Clubs shouldn’t have been struggling financially whilst they had their own little closed shop. That’s when they should have been upgrading their grounds 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

2 hours ago, Taffy Tiger said:

In hindsight I think you may be right , however , as it turned out we needed to spend even more at the end of the season to try to secure SL status . Unfortunately we don't have any rich owners to put any money into the club . Please don't think that is a dig at any team whose owners/directors put money into the team , that is exactly how it should be , we just have it the wrong way around , as we are repaying our benefactor at above market rate . Sadly , that has been the case now for some years . There are talks of a new owner , and in an ideal world , together with upgrading of ground , if these can both happen , that would put us in a very strong position going forward. Until then it's a case of getting by however we can I'm afraid .

Yeah I do sympathise. David Hughes has put £22m into London Broncos since he took over from Branson, and they’re on the edge of the playoffs in the Championship. No assets, no lasting infrastructure, after 25 years’ effort.

With hindsight you’d do things differently. He could have built a permanent stadium for that (10 years ago anyway). But we live in the moment eh.

Although all that being said I did once have an hour long discussion with his CEO back in the day about what marketing we could do with the £200k they were going to instead spend on an aging Henry Paul, so to be honest it’s not like they weren’t told really… 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Hull Kingston Bronco
Typo

[WakefieldCityLoyal]

4 hours ago, Taffy Tiger said:

We were , but times have changed. Too many teams were going into heavy debt as a result of trying to meet new stadia requirements and so RFL changed the criteria . Cas no longer had to upgrade WR . We still don't have to upgrade WR , but if we don't then it will cost us a point , which when combined with the point we can't get for location , would leave us with only 18 achievable points out of the 20. With that in mind , we have no choice but to put into place Plan B, if Planning Permission isn't forthcoming (I still believe it will be though , hopefully) . IMG have set criteria for teams to get the extra point , and Cas , to their credit , have found a Plan B that can achieve this . 

I fully take on board that this isn't perhaps what IMG were intending to happen with their new system , but this kind of thing will always happen in situations like this where points are awarded for specific attributes . You can't blame Cas , in fact you could say that we have been very resourceful in finding an alternative way around the stadium situation. Indeed , in moving seats to Princess Street stand , this will also reduce capacity of ground , hence more points (well fractions of a point) for utilisation of stadium.

That said , Cas fans would love to see new stadium plans come to fruition , and I do agree that £2M would be much better spent in upgrading the ground , all Cas fans would agree , but needs must I'm afraid.

 

Can the 2m council money be used for a temporary upgrade, thought it was community/ grassroots facilities.

 

[dboy]

People shouldn't take their eyes from the fact that the "successful" clubs aren't self-sufficient - if Sky go tomorrow, they go just the same as everyone else. If fact they are MORE exposed.

Warrington, Saints, Wigan, Hudds, Hull FC - all technically bankrupt - they remain by whim of a sugar-daddy.

The only way the game of RL survives and thrives, is the likes of Leneghan and McManus stop wanting to be the biggest fish in a small pond, and start acting for the benefit of all.

Davy puts in excess of £2m per year into Giants to keep them solvent - that's bonkers!

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by dboy

[Taffy Tiger]

57 minutes ago, DEANO said:

Nah don’t buy it. Clubs shouldn’t have been struggling financially whilst they had their own little closed shop. That’s when they should have been upgrading their grounds 

I do see your point , but Cas have no money other than that from TV and generated income . All money went on players at the time as the ground didn't seem a priority , although we were always looking for an opportunity to move/upgrade . The 'closed shop' of franchising was meant to allow teams to build and I agree that Cas benefited more than most from this system at the time . We were yo-yoing from SL to Championship , but the franchise system gave us 6 years to rebuild for the future . We reaped the rewards , getting to a Wembley Final in 2014 , and then , on the back of the strong foundation built during the franchise years , a league leaders shield and a Grand Final , something that would have been impossible for Cas pre franchising. If we had have had a rich owner then the ground would have been sorted out long ago , but failing that we had to prioritise and the ground was put to the bottom of the list . I absolutely sympathise with those clubs who made the effort to improve their stadia , especially those who still weren't allowed a SL place , and I can understand their frustration when they see WR now and then (little or no change) . It will cost us in the long run though if we aren't able to make the necessary changes . I also understand that I am coming at this from a Cas point of view as well , and as such I am bound to make the case for my club . That said the plight of other clubs does not go unnoticed or fall on deaf ears, and I am sure that were the shoe on the other foot , I would see things differently . 

[M j M]

11 hours ago, DEANO said:

Absolute tosh. When sky bought the game those were the rules they implemented. Some clubs have been denied access due to their stadiums 

Sky didn't "buy" the game nor did they insist on any rules being implemented.

[watcherofRL]

On 13/09/2023 at 08:58, Toby Chopra said:

True, but the difference is in 2019 and 2021 they weren't the favourites, they lost the promotion finals to the regular season table-toppers as expected on both occasions.

This year, over the whole season, Fev are clearly the best team, they just have to make sure they don't get mugged on the day like Toronto did in 2018. And this year's London team ain't near as good as that one.

Can only refer to the team that is playing and not herald back to other years and the quality of players - as seen, those players go on to play in other champ sides with only a few moving and remaining in super league. Each team has its day - London we’re relegated on the highest points seen in years and wakey stayed up- a couple of the players from London are part of the wakey team that are now rejoining the champ! Let’s see what happening come the MPG

[watcherofRL]

On 13/09/2023 at 12:05, Fevrover said:

So by your reckoning our pitch which as served us well for over 100 years isn't fit for SL ? But because Castleford have a flat pitch ( but garbage ground) they are ok ?

Neither are any good/worthy 

[RL Tragic]

Why do t they just build one brand spanking new stand with the 2M . 

[dboy]

Something's afoot. Eastwood Consulting Engineers, appointed by the developer, have responded to the Environment Agencies requirements, saying they can't afford to do them.

That letter has now been taken down from the planning portal!!

[dboy]

Fortunately, I downloaded it last night: here are some of the key bits;

"In  order  to  raise  finished  floor  levels  above  the maximum  flood  level  should  defences  fail, approximately 1.5 m of raising would be required. This would result in the development failing to meet accessibility criteria and lead to an increase in flood risk elsewhere. 

In addition, raising of finished floor levels would require the creation of new compensatory voids to accommodate the displaced volume of flooding. If this were to be included on the site it would result in the significant de-scoping  of  the major  upgrades  provided  (such  as  removal  of  the training pitch, loss of car parking and removal of the fan zone) thereby undermining the principle of the proposals to provide upgraded stadium and training facilities. Having the fans seated at a  higher  level would  undermine  the  intimate  atmosphere  of  the  historic  stadium,  one  of  the features it is famous and valued for. 

Raising  finished  floor  levels  would  also  raise  construction  costs  which  have  been  carefully assessed to provide the maximum benefits and to meet the Superleague stadium criteria. Any increase in construction costs would mean that the other upgrades to the facilities would need to  be  descoped  resulting  in  Wheldon  Road  failing  to meet  the  required  stadium  standards. Raising of finished floor levels is therefore deemed unviable."

The letter is basically toned to say "we can't afford to do the amendments, so please just ignore them".