England v Tonga series

[meast]

6 minutes ago, Rovers13 said:

Not a clue but I’ve seen far better champ players never get a shot at SL. 

Maybe they didn't want to become a full time player?

[Rovers13]

2 minutes ago, meast said:

Maybe they didn't want to become a full time player?

Yeah good point tbf. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, GeordieSaint said:

To be fair, there is four halves: Smith, Williams, Lewis and Welsby (easily steps into 6). Centres is the weak spot. There is only 2 (King and Newman). 

Edit: Suppose Welsby can step up to centre as well.

Centre position is really problematic for us overall isn't it. I do think it is a big problem for attacking prowess - it may not be a huge problem for this series, but it will be in WC's or Ashes for example.

[Mojo]

16 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I definitely get the feeling that the delay in the squad announcment was due to some of preferred names pulling out (either individually or by their club) due to injury.

As for a team, if William is fit I think he will go with the below.  If Williams is unavailable then Welsby to 6 and Mikey Lewis (possibly Ashton) to full back:

1. Welsby

2. Young / Makinson

3. Newman

4. King

5. Johnstone

6. Williams

7. Smith

8. Hill

9. Clark

10. Burgess

11. Bateman

12. Whitehead

13. Radley

 

14. Walker

15. Lees

16. Mulhern / Dupree

17. McMeeken / Knowles

 

England's forward pack better be ready for Tongas forward pack. Tonga won't dominate them but the Tongan second rowers are one of the most talented bunch out of all the nations

[Dunbar]

1 minute ago, Mojo said:

England's forward pack better be ready for Tongas forward pack. Tonga won't dominate them but the Tongan second rowers are one of the most talented bunch out of all the nations

That is why I would go with McMeeken on the edge as I think he has the size to mix it with the Tongans.

[Dave T]

53 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I am making up that a thirteen hour round trip to the nearest game (excluding actual game time) makes it a no but one nearer and I’d likely have gone.

As lies go it’s not that exciting, really.

I must admit that my position is swaying towards going - just seeing the squad is a positive for me - I want to see Dom Young and some of the other NRL players wearing that England shirt.

[DoubleD]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

Well done for contradicting yourself then. Bizarre that you don't understand your own posts.

It's called a hollow argument, well done for demonstrating my point

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

Its not a strawman argument. If you think it is then you don't understand the term. As for the rest of your post you make a good case for describing why the venues are wrong. Well done.

40k turned up to the Emirates for a World Cup semi featuring England. For a standalone game vs Tonga, the crowd would be less than this. Do you know which London stadiums were available and the cost? It would be a loss leader, as much as I'd prefer to attend a game there. International rugby just isn't attractive enough.

Part of this is because we can't stick with a concept and the powers that be have messed about with the international game, treating with disdain as an afterthought. So we are where we are

[Dunbar]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Centre position is really problematic for us overall isn't it. I do think it is a big problem for attacking prowess - it may not be a huge problem for this series, but it will be in WC's or Ashes for example.

Yes and no.

If we had Farnworth, Wardle and Newman all fit and in form it could be a position of strength.  Just not enough depth of quality.  But apart from wing you could say that about almost every position for England.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

Yes and no.

If we had Farnworth, Wardle and Newman all fit and in form it could be a position of strength.  Just not enough depth of quality.  But apart from wing you could say that about almost every position for England.

I'm not a fan of Newman. I think Farnworth, Wardle, King are decent options, but agreed there aint too much depth around the league beneath that.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Dave T

[Damien]

14 minutes ago, Rovers13 said:

Not a clue but I’ve seen far better champ players never get a shot at SL. 

Far better than the Young Championship Player of the Year? He played barely 30 games in the Championship with the vast majority when he'd have been 21 and below, which is young for a prop. This is hardly a huge sample anyway but how many times did you actually see him play?

[Dave T]

Have the Saints halves retired, or injured, or not selected?

[RP London]

19 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

Why would I have missed the bit I typed myself? Bizarre assertion

It's a strawman argument. If people want to go and support their national team, they will make the effort. It's quite evident that most club supporters aren't interested in international rugby, which was also evident by the World Cup. So the self fulfilling prophecy will continue whereby we won't play any home internationals, bar the occasional game vs France at Leigh/Warrington

The international game is not there to give the club supporter another game to watch per se. It has many other uses than that and if we don't understand that then I think some people need to go and look at Twickenham on a Six Nations Saturday. One of the issues they have is getting those very same people to get to a club game the next weekend. 

We have well supported games in London, obviously without week in week out club supporters yet they, 9 times out of 10, have the best crowd in a series. But lets not go there. 

We complain about the French crowd being low but put it on on a Wednesday night somewhere that is either hard to get to or has had a large amount of international games in the past few months so reaching saturation level, yet lets put another game just down the road in the autumn too. 

You cannot keep fleecing the same people all the time. Club supporters may be interested in the international game but may well also be looking for something a little bit more than just a game at their stadium supporting a team in a different shirt.. 

We don't put on "events", we don't make it something different, something exciting and we don't stimulate the imagination.. Huddersfield, Hull, St Helens just sounds small time... Newcastle, London, Manchester, Leeds all just sound like something more is going on, something bigger.. also there is a whole day you can build around it, a night out with your mates, a weekend away involving a major international.. etc etc.. its not just another match down the road.. 

But thats just my opinion, but its not a new one, and its one that has been put on here a number of times and by a number of people.. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by RP London

[gingerjon]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I must admit that my position is swaying towards going - just seeing the squad is a positive for me - I want to see Dom Young and some of the other NRL players wearing that England shirt.

All things being equal, I’d go if there was a game in London. Anywhere north of that I’d personally struggle. I don’t expect everything to be organised to suit my needs but I do expect some attempt to be made for at least one of the three opportunities to go for a different audience to the others.

[Rovers13]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

Far better than the Young Championship Player of the Year? He played barely 30 games in the Championship with the vast majority when he'd have been 21 and below, which is young for a prop. This is hardly a huge sample anyway but how many times did you actually see him play?

Yet he got sat on his azz against the better teams in the league. 

[Dave T]

Just now, gingerjon said:

All things being equal, I’d go if there was a game in London. Anywhere north of that I’d personally struggle. I don’t expect everything to be organised to suit my needs but I do expect some attempt to be made for at least one of the three opportunities to go for a different audience to the others.

Without taking this down a different route - it is interesting that the two biggest England games in last year's WC were in Newcastle and London - both ignored for this year, both recently withdrawn from the RL pyramid.

[NRLandSL]

3 minutes ago, Mojo said:

England's forward pack better be ready for Tongas forward pack. Tonga won't dominate them but the Tongan second rowers are one of the most talented bunch out of all the nations

John Batemen is going to be very important for England, In my eyes he’s been the best backrower on defence in this NRL this year behind Nat Butcher, Seriously good defender.

Who do you reckon starts in the Tongan Back Row, they’ve got 5 superb secondrowers in Olaukauatu, Koloamatangi, Katoa, Wong and Frizell. It would seem criminal to even leave one of them out but they have to leave 3 out, crazy. Me personally I would say Olakauatu and Katoa start. I’ve heard Koloamatangi may well start at 9 and Wong is versatile whilst Frizell is experience off the bench.

[Mojo]

18 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I definitely get the feeling that the delay in the squad announcment was due to some of preferred names pulling out (either individually or by their club) due to injury.

As for a team, if William is fit I think he will go with the below.  If Williams is unavailable then Welsby to 6 and Mikey Lewis (possibly Ashton) to full back:

1. Welsby

2. Young / Makinson

3. Newman

4. King

5. Johnstone

6. Williams

7. Smith

8. Hill

9. Clark

10. Burgess

11. Bateman

12. Whitehead

13. Radley

 

14. Walker

15. Lees

16. Mulhern / Dupree

17. McMeeken / Knowles

 

Potential tongan team

1 Koula

2 Tupou

3 Penisini

4 Suli

5 Toa

6 Fainu

7 Katoa

8 Fonua-Blake

9 Havili

10 Fotuaika

11 Olaku'atu

12 Frizell

13 Kolomatangi

14 Lolohea

15 Tatola

16 Kaufusi

17 Eliesa Katoa

 

Monster forward pack and they lose nothing when the bench gets on.

Tongas weakness has always been the halves but that's not the case this time, Katoa has been a regular 7 for a full nrl season and he's played with this same squad last year. I'm picking Tonga to win this series 2-1

[Damien]

Just now, Rovers13 said:

Yet he got sat on his azz against the better teams in the league. 

How many times did you see him play as a Fev fan?

[Dunbar]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Have the Saints halves retired, or injured, or not selected?

Bit early for Dodd to retire.  He was probably in the discussion and should be for a long time.

Hard to tell with Lomax - has he pulled out, has Wane not selected him as a grudge for last year, has he not picked him on form.  All hard to tell.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, crashmon said:

A Lions Union tour should be on bucket list of everyone.  You don't need to like union to enjoy the experience.  Its really something else. Its hard to explain it, unless you have actually been part of one.

No thanks,

And I disagree vehemently with you that you don't have to like it to be there, why would I even consider spending thousands of £'s to finance something I don't want to be part of, I can't even be bothered pressing a button on my remote to watch this RUWC hence I have not even seen a minute of it, I also don't like football you obviously know how close I am (with your roots) to some of the biggest venues in the country me coming from Leigh as I do, but I have lost count of the number of times in my buisness life I have been invited to attend football games in the best of corporate hospitality but very politely declined.

I wouldn't even bother watching the RUWC if England got to the final - provided someone told me or I saw it on the news - so please don't go all nationalistic on me saying I don't care about my country. I have been on 3 RL tours down under, not missed many RL internationals in this country in the last 50 years and been to loads of England Cricket Internationals at various venues in varying formats World Cups, 5day tests, one day-ers, 20/20's and even financed corporate for buisness guests at RL and Cricket matches, it's just that I like what I like.

[Rovers13]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

How many times did you see him play as a Fev fan?

Widnes were on tv they played us etc, he’s a similar type of player as gadwin who is in champ and I know which one id rather have. 

[RP London]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

All things being equal, I’d go if there was a game in London. Anywhere north of that I’d personally struggle. I don’t expect everything to be organised to suit my needs but I do expect some attempt to be made for at least one of the three opportunities to go for a different audience to the others.

people tend to forget that the population is now quite transient (well I say now its been this way for a long time but no one at the RFL seems to have cottoned on).. a lot of Northern folk have moved down South and while they may not get to wimbeldon every week (for whatever reason) they still support their home town clubs and they would go to watch internationals. 

Add to that the aussies and kiwis that come over

add to that those that grew up in the 80s when league was on the telebox and fell in love with the game.. 

Hence an international game in London normally draws well.. plus some of us use it as an excuse to go down, see friends, have a family weekend there with the other half going to the theatre etc.. 

[Mojo]

Just now, NRLandSL said:

John Batemen is going to be very important for England, In my eyes he’s been the best backrower on defence in this NRL this year behind Nat Butcher, Seriously good defender.

Who do you reckon starts in the Tongan Back Row, they’ve got 5 superb secondrowers in Olaukauatu, Koloamatangi, Katoa, Wong and Frizell. It would seem criminal to even leave one of them out but they have to leave 3 out, crazy. Me personally I would say Olakauatu and Katoa start. I’ve heard Koloamatangi may well start at 9 and Wong is versatile whilst Frizell is experience off the bench.

Olaku'atu is definitely guaranteed to start. He's a freak and one on one he's almost impossible to stop. Kolomatangi should be the lock he's got a good passing game and can read the defensive line well. I would have Frizell on the other second row spot just ahead of Kaufusi but you can't go wrong with both. Katoa off the bench for me is better because he's a very aggressive and busy type player that they can plug off the bench. David Fifita's not even part of the team because of injuries but they look like they don't miss him one bit!

[meast]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not a fan of Newman. I think Farnworth, Wardle, King are decent options, but agreed there aint too much depth around the league beneath that.

I may be the only one, but I always like the look of Deon Cross at Salford, not sure if he'd be classed as international class, I'm sure if he played for certain clubs he would be though?

Maybe someone like that could end up being a really good fit?

I agree about Newman, He's not better than most others but people seem to think he's some sort of Mal Meninga, plus his attitude is awful.

[DoubleD]

3 minutes ago, RP London said:

The international game is not there to give the club supporter another game to watch per se. It has many other uses than that and if we don't understand that then I think some people not to go and look at Twickenham on a Six Nations Saturday. One of the issues they have is getting those very same people to get to a club game the next weekend. 

We have well supported games in London, obviously without week in week out club supporters yet they, 9 times out of 10, have the best crowd in a series. But lets not go there. 

We complain about the French crowd being low but put it on on a Wednesday night somewhere that is either hard to get to or has had a large amount of international games in the past few months so reaching saturation level, yet lets put another game just down the road in the autumn too. 

You cannot keep fleecing the same people all the time. Club supporters may be interested in the international game but may well also be looking for something a little bit more than just a game at their stadium supporting a team in a different shirt.. 

We don't put on "events", we don't make it something different, something exciting and we don't stimulate the imagination.. Huddersfield, Hull, St Helens just sounds small time... Newcastle, London, Manchester, Leeds all just sound like something more is going on, something bigger.. also there is a whole day you can build around it, a night out with your mates, a weekend away involving a major international.. etc etc.. its not just another match down the road.. 

But thats just my opinion, but its not a new one, and its one that has been put on here a number of times and by a number of people.. 

I agree, I'd prefer more exciting venues, but this was a series which was organised late, we don't know the availability and cost of stadiums. 40k turning up to a World Cup semi involving England at the Emirates was undoubtedly disappointing. The game has continually shot itself in the foot with regards to the international scene but people choosing not to support the international game is not going to have the desired effect, it will have the opposite and be counterproductive