Sun 22 Oct: International: England v Tonga (at Totally Wicked Stadium, St Helens) KO 2.30pm

[Barley Mow]

1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

There were a few on here saying how Moore was giving everything to the Tongan's to compensate for him being English - and universal criticism to award the first Tongan try.

Personally, I thought the ref was fair.  As I say, there was plenty going on in the ruck from both teams and they could both have been pinged more but the ref kept an absorbing game flowing for the most part.

The game stats tell and interesting story.  England made more metres on significantly fewer runs and a better distance per set than Tonga.  Despite Tonga having better post contact metres.

It tells me that the kicking game and kick chase from England was spot on and the line speed excellent.  In that circumstance, Tonga are hardly likely to be returning a faster play the ball.  Sometimes these things are down to the effectiveness of the players and not just how the game is reffed.

(It was less than half a second difference in play the ball speed, not a full second).

And yes, the play the ball in Super League is a disgrace, and this was how the tes was called.  But seeing as though the Pacific Championship is being played to NRL laws, it is a reflection of how parochial the sport.

I agree.

Both teams were messing around trying to slow the other team down - as is normal. What struck me was the way in which they were doing it:

- England (primarily made up of SL players) were laying on the tackle for longer - the typical way of slowing the attacking team in SL.

- Tonga (with more NRL players) were standing/laying in the ruck in front of the dummy half to slow/mess up the play-the-ball (as is more typical in NRL).

I do think that players in SL/the British game get away with laying on too much, but I didn't think that the game was refereed any differently to a SL game - I often shout 'six again' at the tele when I think players are taking the p###, and I don't think I did it any more yesterday than an average SL match.

Kristian Woolf has coached enough in the UK to expect the amount of laying on that there was and that referees allow. Indeed he was St Helens coach only last year and I'm sure this year wasn't the first that Saints were accused of using this tactic. I think he is playing a little dumb and I would have expected him to prepare the Tongan players for this and even let them know they might be able to get away with it a bit more. His comments about England getting an extra second seem to be mind games - there really weren't enough incidents getting pinged for any analysis to be worthwhile.

A RFL appointed ref was always going to run the match as he is used to doing. A ref from the NRL would run it as they are used to (even if they are a neutral Australian). There may be a very slight advantage to England having a RFL ref, but Tonga would have a similar advantage with a NRL ref.

[Northern Eel]

4 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Initially, in my opinion, the game came over on TV a little like a friendly- crowd seemed happy and light-hearted.  No sense of a titanic battle. Is that how it seemed to spectators, too?

It was muted. I was thinking about why this was during the game, as what was on the field was entertaining enough to whip up more enthusiasm than was evident. I really do think there's something around the brand that people don't (yet) buy into. International RL has had a chequered and infrequent status and until we can get to the stage where we can generate grudge-matches or repetitive 'two worlds collide' type games, it is going to continue to be a struggle.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

1 hour ago, Leonard said:

I think the issue is that the RFL is not putting on test matches in Guildford. 

Yet another missed opportunity 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

41 minutes ago, phiggins said:

Sounds like they didn't push the closing time back, in line with the kick off time being pushed back?

Actually yep that makes sense....heads should still roll........

But in fairness it meant I didn't have a pint so overall a good thing!

[Rovers13]

Just now, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Yet another missed opportunity 

Putting 2 tests back to back at hudds and Leeds is just stupid, their not far apart, one Lancashire one Yorkshire one London for me, if not london for whatever reason can’t get a stadium or too costly or whatever then Cumbria. 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

1 minute ago, Rovers13 said:

Putting 2 tests back to back at hudds and Leeds is just stupid, their not far apart, one Lancashire one Yorkshire one London for me, if not london for whatever reason can’t get a stadium or too costly or whatever then Cumbria. 

London or Coventry would be good but not Guildford 

[Cumbrian Fanatic]

1 minute ago, Rovers13 said:

Putting 2 tests back to back at hudds and Leeds is just stupid, their not far apart, one Lancashire one Yorkshire one London for me, if not london for whatever reason can’t get a stadium or too costly or whatever then Cumbria. 

As much as I'd love a test match in Cumbria, there simply is no stadium that could host one. The only one anywhere close is Carlisle United ground and that is simply not up to scratch 

[Rovers13]

1 minute ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

London or Coventry would be good but not Guildford 

No game in London I’m guessing is a cost cutting exercise as for life of me can’t think of any other reason why they wouldn’t use london for one test. 

[Rovers13]

Just now, Cumbrian Fanatic said:

As much as I'd love a test match in Cumbria, there simply is no stadium that could host one. The only one anywhere close is Carlisle United ground and that is simply not up to scratch 

Yeah I was just racking my brain tbh where in Cumbria could host one, Newcastle then but yeah Leeds hudds back to back was silly imo. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, phiggins said:

But in the case of the first Tonga try, the Tonga player doesn't run into the defensive line, never even gets ahead of the passer. but the two defenders go to him instead. It's just poor defence, that shouldn't be rewarded with a penalty.

This just isn't true. 

https://ibb.co/thdTtGP

The image won't embed, but the Tonga player has teh ball behind the runner, who is 2 or 3 metres ahead of him. 

So I'm mot sure why you say he isn't ahead of the passer - the evidence is in the link. He was. 

[JonM]

18 minutes ago, Northern Eel said:

It was muted. I was thinking about why this was during the game, as what was on the field was entertaining enough to whip up more enthusiasm than was evident. 

I think one thing already alluded to is that Tonga are pretty popular - there's no grudge or rivalry. People would happily support Tonga vs Australia or NZ. So the Tongan team was applauded onto the pitch, the anthem was not booed, many of the players are well liked by the fans, the Tongan fans with their flags and sound system were getting big smiles off everyone. 

The other possible reason is that there were an unusually large number of small kids and families in attendance. Probably hundreds of primary school aged kids visible from my seat.

[gingerjon]

Should say that I thought that the atmosphere came over well on the TV - helped by the BBC commentary getting quite excitable at times.

[Rovers13]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Should say that I thought that the atmosphere came over well on the TV - helped by the BBC commentary getting quite excitable at times.

Yeah the commentary made me chuckle sometimes how excited they got lol. But that’s how it should be sky commentators bore me to death lol. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Rovers13

[phiggins]

12 minutes ago, Dave T said:

This just isn't true. 

https://ibb.co/thdTtGP

The image won't embed, but the Tonga player has teh ball behind the runner, who is 2 or 3 metres ahead of him. 

So I'm mot sure why you say he isn't ahead of the passer - the evidence is in the link. He was. 

I can't access that link on my work computer. When I said passer, I meant the half back, who had the option of the second row (who was the dummy runner that Smith and King tackled) or the full back. It went out the back to the full back. At the point of contact with King and Smith, the second row is level(ish) with his half back, and it's more a case of the defensive line has moved up to him rather than the other way around.

I said in a later post, that it could be pulled up for crossing, as the full back catches the ball inside the runner.

[Rovers13]

1 minute ago, phiggins said:

I can't access that link on my work computer. When I said passer, I meant the half back, who had the option of the second row (who was the dummy runner that Smith and King tackled) or the full back. It went out the back to the full back. At the point of contact with King and Smith, the second row is level(ish) with his half back, and it's more a case of the defensive line has moved up to him rather than the other way around.

I said in a later post, that it could be pulled up for crossing, as the full back catches the ball inside the runner.

Is that why Leigh did so well you were convincing the ref from the stands as I was adamant it was obstruction but now you keep making me watch it again

[JonM]

6 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Should say that I thought that the atmosphere came over well on the TV - helped by the BBC commentary getting quite excitable at times.

The on-field pieces were done in front of us. I found it quite amusing to see Jamie Peacock having his brow mopped by the make up lady before he stepped in front of the camera. Also how long they kept Shaun Wane hanging round before his interview.

[Big Picture]

3 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

That's good to hear.

Fox Sports finally put up a report 5 hours ago. I had assumed that the blackout was due to them not having the rights and the tour falling outside the CBA.

NRL 2023: England vs Tonga, international rugby league, Jack Welsby, results, highlights, video, schedule, Kristian Woolf, news, Tolu Koula (foxsports.com.au)

Is Fox League available in NZ, though? I hope the big Tongan diaspora in NZ were catered to and were able to catch the game.

Even if they could get Fox League's feed in NZ, the time there is two hours ahead of Sydney so it would have started at 2:30 AM Monday there.   Hardly any of them would be up to see it then.

[Dunbar]

2 hours ago, phiggins said:

But in the case of the first Tonga try, the Tonga player doesn't run into the defensive line, never even gets ahead of the passer. but the two defenders go to him instead. It's just poor defence, that shouldn't be rewarded with a penalty. 

The trouble with saying any contact should be a penalty, is the same problem we have with any attempts to change or clarify the rules in that players will take the mickey and just decieve the ref to try and win penalties.

I can't remember if he got ahead of the passer, but there are two key things to look for in a lead runner.

1. He gets through the line and doesn't obstruct defensive movement.

2. The pass is caught outside the lead runner.

On the first one, he didn't get through the line.  But I believe this is because both King and Smith made a conscious effort to make contact with him. Smith wasn't trying to drift and was obstructed, he went in to make a tackle.  That is a defensive decision, not obstruction. 

[Cumbrian Fanatic]

Just watched the tries on England RL on Facebook and that ball from Welsby looks even better on television than it did live. Looking forward to watching the full match on a bigger screen 

[phiggins]

1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

I can't remember if he got ahead of the passer, but there are two key things to look for in a lead runner.

1. He gets through the line and doesn't obstruct defensive movement.

2. The pass is caught outside the lead runner.

On the first one, he didn't get through the line.  But I believe this is because both King and Smith made a conscious effort to make contact with him. Smith wasn't trying to drift and was obstructed, he went in to make a tackle.  That is a defensive decision, not obstruction. 

That's exactly how I saw it. If the try was to be disallowed, it would be point 2 that needed to be looked at, but it would have been a let off after a very poor defensive decision.

[Rovers13]

2 minutes ago, Cumbrian Fanatic said:

Just watched the tries on England RL on Facebook and that ball from Welsby looks even better on television than it did live. Looking forward to watching the full match on a bigger screen 

It was a beauty of a pass sheer class tbh. 

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I can't remember if he got ahead of the passer, but there are two key things to look for in a lead runner.

1. He gets through the line and doesn't obstruct defensive movement.

2. The pass is caught outside the lead runner.

On the first one, he didn't get through the line.  But I believe this is because both King and Smith made a conscious effort to make contact with him. Smith wasn't trying to drift and was obstructed, he went in to make a tackle.  That is a defensive decision, not obstruction. 

On point 2 - let's accept it's a bad defensive read from Smith (I disagree personally but let's park that), does this negate illegal play (crossing) because the ball was absolutely caught inside the lead runner? 

I don't think I've ever seen crossing ignored and blamed on the defence is why I ask. 

[Bedford Roughyed]

2 hours ago, Leonard said:

Same here. Off to Botafogo for dinner

Went there before watching Muse at the stadium in the summer.  I enjoyed it.  Nice food.  

[Lowdesert]

11 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

I think the main things that were noticeable to me were Moore not picking up on barely an English foot attempting to play the ball (apart from some of our NRL contingent) compared to Tonga. We know SL is lazy with that but can’t be let go at international level imo. Then, as per Woolf’s alleged ‘analysis’ in his presser - it did feel like Tonga were being called off tackles and/or giving away repeat sets for less holding down than England. Woolf reckons a full second difference on average - I’d be interested to see that analysis. There was a pretty blatant obstruction/crossing that nearly saw Burgess go over. As I say, these are all common game issues but you invite this level of scrutiny when the referee not only referees in a league where most of one team play, but is also from that country. Surely wouldn’t have been hard to get an Aus/NZ ref.

 

edit: not unsurprisingly the first NRL article I’ve seen about the game focuses on AFB and Woolf not been happy about the calls they did/didn’t get. I know teams moan when they lose but I myself raised this because I think there’s some merit in them feeling slightly aggrieved. The worry now is whoever refs next week will have all this going on in their mind, no matter how professional they are. 
https://www.nrl.com/news/2023/10/23/i-dont-feel-like-they-beat-us-tonga-lament-mistakes-in-first-test-defeat/

Some good points mate but if we’re looking for perfection humans are the wrong species to deliver it.

I thought Moore did ok.  He could have quite easily sent off the Tongan forward for his running in at the melee late in the game.  No mention of that in the nrl press or from Woolf.

id say we are making the game all about the referees and not the players.  Do we really need the referee to tell players when to roll away?  Are coaches absolving themselves of any responsibility to coach playing to the Laws?The control of the ruck should be absolutely down to the Laws of the game not an ‘interpretation’ imo.

[Dunbar]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

On point 2 - let's accept it's a bad defensive read from Smith (I disagree personally but let's park that), does this negate illegal play (crossing) because the ball was absolutely caught inside the lead runner? 

I don't think I've ever seen crossing ignored and blamed on the defence is why I ask. 

I think he caught the ball directly behind the lead runner.