Rule Changes for 2024

[Spidey]

"Moving forward, there will be a clampdown on incorrect play the balls with players now being warned that they must make a genuine attempt to touch the ball with their foot."

How many times has this been tried and subsequently ignored?

[unapologetic pedant]

23 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

The problem is that we have let two opposing forces come into the game in order to somehow cancel each other out.

Our refs are like supply teachers who lose control of the class. If they let one child misbehave, they have no moral authority to stop others misbehaving.

[Dunbar]

18 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Our refs are like supply teachers who lose control of the class. If they let one child misbehave, they have no moral authority to stop others misbehaving.

I don't blame the ref's in any way.  I think they do a remarkable job under the circumstances.

[The Blues Ox]

48 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

The tackle is complete when the ball or ball-carrying arm touches the ground or when the ref calls "Held". The only one of these criteria that affords scope for interpretation is the "Held" call.

 

Your previous post said "join a tackle on the floor". I'd need to see an example to know what you mean by adding weight to a completed tackle on the floor. Prima facie, sounds like a clear flop.

Just looking for examples and using this years CC final. 3rd tackle of the game Hull KR number 10 falls off then dives back on 3rd man in, a marginal example but this is early in the game and will no doubt get worse as the pace of the game slows.
Next tackle after the penalty, KR 17 loses control of the tackle and goes back in, again I think its marginal but could be a new penalty under the new interpretation. Next tackle KR No. 10 again 3rd man in on player on the deck. 1st set Leigh have the ball we see the Asiata tackle before a Leigh player comes in late with the flop and it results in a penalty to Leigh for KR players running in. Im 3 minutes in at this point so not going to watch any more but expect the theme to continue.

I think a lot of a time it is marginal but I always get the impression the advantage is given to the defence in situations like this and its not as clear cut as ball carrying arm hitting the deck.

[ATLANTISMAN]

43 minutes ago, Spidey said:

"Moving forward, there will be a clampdown on incorrect play the balls with players now being warned that they must make a genuine attempt to touch the ball with their foot."

How many times has this been tried and subsequently ignored?

That's one great thing that the women's game have brought us.

Play the ball correctly 

[Click]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

"Moving forward, there will be a clampdown on incorrect play the balls with players now being warned that they must make a genuine attempt to touch the ball with their foot."

How many times has this been tried and subsequently ignored?

I genuinely cannot remember the last time the RFL has re-iterated having to use the foot for a proper PTB.

It has to be up there as a fan complaint for a number of seasons now.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Click

[Dunbar]

1 hour ago, Click said:

I genuinely cannot remember the last time the RFL has re-iterated having to use the foot for a proper PTB.

It has to be up there as a fan complaint for a number of seasons now.

From memory, the last time they cracked down on it was around 2020.

Jack Welsby got pinged for an incorrect play the ball in one of the first few rounds.

It showed two things.

1. That penalising one player in isolation has absolutely no effect. 

2. Welsby played the ball properly for the next 2 years showing that it actually works if you tell players that they will be penalised. 

There is only one solution here... persistence. 

[unapologetic pedant]

2 hours ago, The Blues Ox said:

Just looking for examples and using this years CC final. 3rd tackle of the game Hull KR number 10 falls off then dives back on 3rd man in, a marginal example but this is early in the game and will no doubt get worse as the pace of the game slows.
Next tackle after the penalty, KR 17 loses control of the tackle and goes back in, again I think its marginal but could be a new penalty under the new interpretation. Next tackle KR No. 10 again 3rd man in on player on the deck. 1st set Leigh have the ball we see the Asiata tackle before a Leigh player comes in late with the flop and it results in a penalty to Leigh for KR players running in. Im 3 minutes in at this point so not going to watch any more but expect the theme to continue.

I think a lot of a time it is marginal but I always get the impression the advantage is given to the defence in situations like this and its not as clear cut as ball carrying arm hitting the deck.

Should remember there's some allowance for momentum in the tackle from the moment the ball or ball-carrying arm reaches the ground. None of the Rovers tackles were clear flops. The involvement of the suspect tackler in each case is simultaneous with completion.

The Leigh one could have been a set restart. Even this would have been harsh since the ball-carrier was still moving when the second tackler came in.

The evidence has to be conclusive for the ref to penalize. When it's close, the ref calls the player out if he deems it late. 

BTW, unless I'm seeing things the Rovers 17 was 37.

[unapologetic pedant]

3 hours ago, Dunbar said:

I don't blame the ref's in any way.  I think they do a remarkable job under the circumstances.

In general, neither do I. Likewise, the head of a school is ultimately responsible for hapless supply teachers.

However, in the midst of our PTB debacle, there have been instances where refs penalize a player who slightly stumbles whilst playing the ball correctly. Then on the next play, they let an opponent chuck the ball through their legs. I'd like to think officials would be keen to avoid such flagrant injustice.

[Dunbar]

13 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

In general, neither do I. Likewise, the head of a school is ultimately responsible for hapless supply teachers.

However, in the midst of our PTB debacle, there have been instances where refs penalize a player who slightly stumbles whilst playing the ball correctly. Then on the next play, they let an opponent chuck the ball through their legs. I'd like to think officials would be keen to avoid such flagrant injustice.

But this is the interpretations that we are refereeing to today.

Blaming the referees for this is like (in your analogy) blaming the teachers for Ofsted regulations. Just as teachers have to work to the guidelines laid out, so do referees.

[ATLANTISMAN]

34 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

But this is the interpretations that we are refereeing to today.

Blaming the referees for this is like (in your analogy) blaming the teachers for Ofsted regulations. Just as teachers have to work to the guidelines laid out, so do referees.

Agree all very simple PLAY THE BALL CORRECTLY:) 

[unapologetic pedant]

On 24/11/2023 at 13:09, JonM said:

Can anybody explain what Callum Walker is referring to as "hands on the ball-by-ball carriers"? I can't make any sense of it even ignoring the presumably wrongly autocorrected punctuation.

https://www.totalrl.com/how-the-six-again-will-look-in-2024-following-major-change-to-the-rule/

This "hands on the ball-by-ball carriers" phrase appears in the RFL article covering the "new" interpretations.

No wonder we can't spread the game abroad. Bad enough for native English speakers. God help aspiring Greek or Serbian refs trying to translate and make sense of our rules.

Does anybody at the RFL check a text before it goes up on their site? And why do journalists just regurgitate verbatim such obvious gobbledygook?

[LeeF]

On 24/11/2023 at 14:03, unapologetic pedant said:

Must mean hands on the ball by defenders after the tackle is complete.

We can officially turn the lights out if the RFL have banned ball-carriers from having their hands on the ball.

It has to be hands on the ball by defenders in an attempt to slow down the PTB.
 

It is a return to how it was supposed to be a few years ago and may be a source of penalties early in the season as it is hands on the ball that is one of the biggest factors in the mess called the PTB at the moment. 

[Impartial Observer]

Getting the players to PTB correctly will have the effect of slowing the game down and reducing collosion speeds with the aim I presume of reducing concussions 

[bobbruce]

2 hours ago, Impartial Observer said:

Getting the players to PTB correctly will have the effect of slowing the game down and reducing collosion speeds with the aim I presume of reducing concussions 

It will slow the game down slightly if the attacking side are forced to ptb correctly. I actually think that will increase collision speeds as you be more likely to be running at a set defense coming onto you. 

[LeeF]

15 hours ago, bobbruce said:

It will slow the game down slightly if the attacking side are forced to ptb correctly. I actually think that will increase collision speeds as you be more likely to be running at a set defense coming onto you. 

The defending team will have less time to set if the other tackle interpretations are enforced. No late man in or hands on the ball with reduce time to get back the 10m and set.

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by LeeF

[LeeF]

Reading the admittedly poorly worded article from the RFL I think the real aim is to have a much more controlled and cleaner PTB.
 

No late involvements; no hands on the ball; no contact with the floor when playing the ball; making a genuine attempt to play the ball etc do tidy the ruck up providing they are enforced.

Also, none of this is new. It’s definitely a return to the time of the previous head of the referees who was very keen on those aspects. 

[Lowdesert]

40 minutes ago, LeeF said:

Reading the admittedly poorly worded article from the RFL I think the real aim is to have a much more controlled and cleaner PTB.
 

No late involvements; no hands on the ball; no contact with the floor when playing the ball; making a genuine attempt to play the ball etc do tidy the ruck up providing they are enforced.

Also, none of this is new. It’s definitely a return to the time of the previous head of the referees who was very keen on those aspects. 

It is indeed but it’s a shame that actual effort to put this mess right has taken so long.  I am skeptical that these changes will be maintained but hope I am wrong.

[LeeF]

38 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

It is indeed but it’s a shame that actual effort to put this mess right has taken so long.  I am skeptical that these changes will be maintained but hope I am wrong.

The match officials will do as instructed. How the players, coaches, journalists and TV presenters react will be the determining factors.
 

If the first 2 don’t adapt but whinge, usually loudly, and the last 2 encourage and support them then the instructions will be watered down based on past experience. 

Now if the RFL, for once, dig their heels in and ride out the early season penalty fests and keep players & coaches in line by enforcing their own disciplinary guidelines we, ie the fans/ paying public, will get a much better game to watch. Weeks 3 and 4 of the season will be key. 

[phiggins]

25 minutes ago, LeeF said:

The match officials will do as instructed. How the players, coaches, journalists and TV presenters react will be the determining factors.
 

If the first 2 don’t adapt but whinge, usually loudly, and the last 2 encourage and support them then the instructions will be watered down based on past experience. 

Now if the RFL, for once, dig their heels in and ride out the early season penalty fests and keep players & coaches in line by enforcing their own disciplinary guidelines we, ie the fans/ paying public, will get a much better game to watch. Weeks 3 and 4 of the season will be key. 

Can just see it now, journalists and pundits talking about how the refs should let the game flow. When in reality, if they decide not to ping infrigements, the end result is the opposite of the game flowing. Just becomes a scrappy mess. The first half of the Catalans - Saints play off game was a prime example.

[Dunbar]

30 minutes ago, LeeF said:

Now if the RFL, for once, dig their heels in and ride out the early season penalty fests and keep players & coaches in line by enforcing their own disciplinary guidelines we, ie the fans/ paying public, will get a much better game to watch. Weeks 3 and 4 of the season will be key. 

For the actual play the ball (rather than the defensive misdemeanours) I fear the new interpretations have already got the get out clause built in.

Making an effort to play the ball is entirely subjective and if there is a vocal negative response to early penalties the ref's will probably just become more and more lenient (consciously or subconsciously) on this effort until we penalise very little and drift back to where we are now.

And this is by no means a criticism of the ref's - just that they have been thrown under the bus by not being allowed to just penalise an improper play the ball and somehow have to judge how much of an effort a player has made.

[LeeF]

35 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

For the actual play the ball (rather than the defensive misdemeanours) I fear the new interpretations have already got the get out clause built in.

Making an effort to play the ball is entirely subjective and if there is a vocal negative response to early penalties the ref's will probably just become more and more lenient (consciously or subconsciously) on this effort until we penalise very little and drift back to where we are now.

And this is by no means a criticism of the ref's - just that they have been thrown under the bus by not being allowed to just penalise an improper play the ball and somehow have to judge how much of an effort a player has made.

I don’t disagree but the pressure to relax will come from the coaches & players with their cheerleaders in the press. From memory the wording is very similar to a few years ago when the PTB was much cleaner etc.

Now if only coaches would do their job and actually coach players to follow the laws and the players followed that coaching. 

[Dave T]

I think there needs to be a bit of a mentality change tbh. We seem to have got ourselves a touch obsessed with the game being fast and anything that affects that is seen as something bad and needs to be removed from the game. I think we have got ourselves into a slightly sticky spot and we should be making sure we always look at the bigger picture and the match as a whole. 

We see penalties as such a negative on the game, and I'm not really sure they are. They are a part of the game as much as any other part of the game. I don't necessarily think a game with a lot of penalties is automatically a bad game, but that is something that is frowned upon. We've gone down the route of ignoring infringements (incorrect ptb's, holding down, flops, crossing, staying in the ruck etc) just because we are worried about the ref blowing their whistle. I'm not somebody who just thinks it's as easy as telling the ref to blow for everything, but there is an element of that. Instead we have just legalised offences. For me it has had a big impact on the game. I'm pleased to see them trying to rectify some of this now, but until we fix the culture and the obsession with no stoppages, we will just keep ending up back in that spot.

Possibly the weirdest example of this is the crossing thing, where we force somebody to take a dive to avoid a penalty. It's a really bad look for the game imo.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Dave T

[LeeF]

I can already hear Barry & Terry exploding as someone is sent off 

 

 

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

And this is by no means a criticism of the ref's - just that they have been thrown under the bus by not being allowed to just penalise an improper play the ball and somehow have to judge how much of an effort a player has made.

But this is the crux of it Dunny, if it is an improper play the ball then the ref should have no other option than to penalise, if the ref doesn't believe it is an infringement then no matter what the wording is he will allow play on.

Basically every rule is still open to how the ref sees it, in this case does the player make an effort to play it properly YES or NO is the refs consideration, It will be fine as long as the ref is consistent in his adjudication, if he sways from applying his judgement consistently and it seems to be benefitting one of the teams more than the other then we have problems.