Nick Gregson - Widnes/Swinton bad blood

[Griff]

1 hour ago, The Blues Ox said:

I think the bolded part might be where the problem lies, its like 99.9% certain that officials at Swinton knew this was happening but for whatever reason have allowed it to go on. So if they suspend Kilshaw he's going to call them out on it and ask why they did not tell him that they thought it were inappropriate and to stop doing it(Like he should need telling that anyway but...).

I very much doubt that the officials got to see the tip sheet.

The players did though and I'm not surprised that one of them eventually broke ranks. Wherever we go, there's almost always someone who played for us or someone who's a former team mate of one of our players. It's a relatively small pool of players 

[Mark]

On the Swinton section of this website, someone has put on a very detailed review of the Widnes Injuries and Gregsons involvment in the game, having viewed them none actually look bad or that anyone was targeted with something dirty, maybe a bit of a swinging arm on one of the incidents (not Gregson) but when you look at Hatton scoring, Butty does the same to him. 

[The Phantom Horseman]

35 minutes ago, Mark said:

On the Swinton section of this website, someone has put on a very detailed review of the Widnes Injuries and Gregsons involvment in the game, having viewed them none actually look bad or that anyone was targeted with something dirty, maybe a bit of a swinging arm on one of the incidents (not Gregson) but when you look at Hatton scoring, Butty does the same to him. 

Rather misses the point doesn't it though? The accusations aren't being made at the Swinton players and their actions, it's the actions of the Swinton coaching staff that are under the microscope.

[Mark]

3 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

Rather misses the point doesn't it though? The accusations aren't being made at the Swinton players and their actions, it's the actions of the Swinton coaching staff that are under the microscope.

Not when you look at the comments on the Widnes sites, its that we set out to injure players and the high amount of injuries were down to our challenges. Looking at that they weren't, the noose is wrong, don't think anyone is arguing about that but I suspect the coaches will be saying we just told them to run at the injured shoulder which is fine. 

[The Phantom Horseman]

12 minutes ago, Mark said:

Not when you look at the comments on the Widnes sites, its that we set out to injure players and the high amount of injuries were down to our challenges. Looking at that they weren't, the noose is wrong, don't think anyone is arguing about that but I suspect the coaches will be saying we just told them to run at the injured shoulder which is fine. 

It's clearly the tip sheets and the noose/images of blood etc that are the major issue here. Looking at Gregson's tweet, the following players have made negative posts expressing shock/concern/disgust about it:

Chris Hankinson, Ben Johnston, Gregg McNally, Richie Mathers, Jose Kenga, George Flanagan, Dale Ferguson, Jack Hansen, Richard Moore, Cam Leeming, Ryan King, Omari Caro, Reece Hamlett, Ronan Michael, Matt Costello, Ronan Dixon, Brad Gallagher, Lewis Else, Samy Kibula, Gareth Owen, Will Hope, Ian Thornley (there may be others that I have missed).

Most of the above are vastly experienced and mostly Championship players and thankfully it seems clear that this kind of extreme "motivation" is far from the norm.

[JonM]

1 hour ago, Mark said:

Not when you look at the comments on the Widnes sites, its that we set out to injure players and the high amount of injuries were down to our challenges. Looking at that they weren't, the noose is wrong, don't think anyone is arguing about that but I suspect the coaches will be saying we just told them to run at the injured shoulder which is fine. 

I'm a Widnes fan and was at the game - and full disclosure of bias - had a very very low opinion of Alan Kilshaw's approach to coaching RL already. Obviously we had 5 players injured and out of the game, and two others who appeared to have picked up injuries during the match and who stayed on the pitch, we looked to me to have effectively finished with 10 fit players on the pitch. So quite an unusual number of injuries for one match, including two dislocated shoulders and two head injuries.

That said, I don't think it was at all a dirty game, and I definitely wouldn't point to any specific incident where I thought a Swinton player had deliberately set out to injure someone. I think there were some high tackles which went unpunished in a way that probably wouldn't have happened in the first few weeks of the season and similarly, tacklers were given complete freedom to "work" the tackled player on the ground, but again I didn't see anything that looked like a deliberate attempt to cause harm at any point.

I did hear Darren Abram shouting instructions from the stand to the Swinton players to target particular Widnes players and the same coming from the dugout, and IMO the Swinton coaching staff's behavior throughout was incredibly unprofessional, with aggressive comments towards the touch judges and the Widnes coaching staff. Of course, the small crowd at Swinton makes it easier to hear that kind of stuff, but it's not something I've ever really noticed elsewhere in the pro game as opposed to at amateur level.

[sweaty craiq]

Targeting weakness is a basic coaching action, asking a player to take someone out illegally stopped about 30 years ago

[Griff]

17 hours ago, Bomb Jack said:

So. If someone gets injured in a game, and stays on the pitch, they can rightly be targetted. 

Like Alan Prescott was in 1958?  He said himself that the Aussies could have got him off the field at any time but they had too much respect for each other.

[wasginger]

9 hours ago, RP London said:

I have never denied it happened but I refer you back to paragraph 2 of the post that I made that you quoted:

"Things happening in the past does not make them right now nor did it make them right in the past."

 We're never going to agree on this. In the past it may not be right to you, but that was how the game was played. I'll give you an example of how easy it was to take someone out of the game. Scrums in the past, if a forward was having a good game, one of the opposition second row would hit either one of the front 3 or one of the second rows. If done right goodnight vienna. Of course he'd arranged it with one member of his own front row to move his head to oine side, so he got a clear punch in. Anyway enough of my All Our Yesterdays. No offence meant with my reply.

[Griff]

8 hours ago, Mark said:

....

I suspect the coaches will be saying we just told them to run at the injured shoulder which is fine. 

Oh. Is it?

[Keep The Faith]

30 minutes ago, Griff said:

Oh. Is it?

No offence happens every game if it’s a weak link within a match 

as certain ex players have said it’s part of the game but they don’t agree with the other things that have been posted etc 

[The Blues Ox]

12 hours ago, Griff said:

Oh. Is it?

Yeah.

[Expatknight]

I thought we had moved on from the thuggery that used to be prevalent in our game, as was depicted in ‘This Sporting Life’ all those years ago, there is no place for it in the modern game, if there ever was. I don’t think anyone on here is really saying it is ok to set out to deliberately injure another player, any normal person would see that is plain wrong, but it would appear, from some of the comments, that is what has been alluded to by the coaches in this instance, they must be mad if that is the case, as far as the picture goes, what can you say?

 

[RP London]

14 hours ago, wasginger said:

 We're never going to agree on this. In the past it may not be right to you, but that was how the game was played. I'll give you an example of how easy it was to take someone out of the game. Scrums in the past, if a forward was having a good game, one of the opposition second row would hit either one of the front 3 or one of the second rows. If done right goodnight vienna. Of course he'd arranged it with one member of his own front row to move his head to oine side, so he got a clear punch in. Anyway enough of my All Our Yesterdays. No offence meant with my reply.

No offence taken, I really dont disagree with you and all you are doing is telling a story, i've been in the same sort of game myself against a few clubs.. but I refer you to my previous answer but simplify it.. just because it happens doesn't make it right. Its not a go at anyone but its the "in my day" type stuff that clouds the issue.. it isnt right now and it wasnt right then, yes it happened, but it wasnt right..

In the same way, outside of sports, the tax laws allow for all sorts of things to be done, it doesnt make them right.

Edited July 11, 2024 by RP London

[LeytherRob]

 

Salford have pulled Kai Morgan back from Swinton 1 week into a 2 week loan deal and the Warrington players who played las week are also absent from Swintons squad for this weekend, so it looks like the SL clubs have taken a stand on this.

[Griff]

9 hours ago, LeytherRob said:

 

Salford have pulled Kai Morgan back from Swinton 1 week into a 2 week loan deal and the Warrington players who played las week are also absent from Swintons squad for this weekend, so it looks like the SL clubs have taken a stand on this.

This - and the sheer number of players commenting on Facebook - suggest that this is less common practice than some posters would have us believe 

[The Blues Ox]

2 hours ago, Griff said:

This - and the sheer number of players commenting on Facebook - suggest that this is less common practice than some posters would have us believe 

Im not sure that many posters have suggested what is alledged to have gone on is common practice have they? Huge difference between normal cheat sheets which most teams use in one form or another and a picture of someone with a noose around their neck. Just the same as there is a huge difference in someone shouting to try and injury a player compared to noticing someone has a knock and saying lets play at them.

[Damien]

6 hours ago, Griff said:

This - and the sheer number of players commenting on Facebook - suggest that this is less common practice than some posters would have us believe 

I don't think anyone has said putting a noose around a picture of a player is common practice and as far as I can see everyone has condemned it.

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

I don't think anyone has said putting a noose around a picture of a player is common practice and as far as I can see everyone has condemned it.

I wasn't commenting on the noose.

[Damien]

38 minutes ago, Griff said:

I wasn't commenting on the noose.

You replied to a post saying SL clubs have taken a stand on this and that this is less common practice than some posters would have us believe. What do you think they have taken a stand on if it's not the noose element (which certainly isn't common practice and which has caused the widespread condemnation)?

[Griff]

16 minutes ago, Damien said:

You replied to a post saying SL clubs have taken a stand on this and that this is less common practice than some posters would have us believe. What do you think they have taken a stand on if it's not the noose element (which certainly isn't common practice and which has caused the widespread condemnation)?

Nooses weren't mentioned in the post to which I replied.

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Griff said:

Nooses weren't mentioned in the post to which I replied.

I mean it's quite clear. You replied to post about SL clubs taking a stand (which I presume you agreed with) and said that this suggests this is less common practice than what posters would have us believe. As every poster has condemned the noose element, so it obviously can't be that when you refer to what posters would have us believe, what do you think SL clubs have taken a stand on and what are you suggesting is different than what posters would have us believe?

[Griff]

35 minutes ago, Damien said:

I mean it's quite clear. You replied to post about SL clubs taking a stand (which I presume you agreed with) and said that this suggests this is less common practice than what posters would have us believe. As every poster has condemned the noose element, so it obviously can't be that when you refer to what posters would have us believe, what do you think SL clubs have taken a stand on and what are you suggesting is different than what posters would have us believe?

See your doctor about your unhealthy obsession.

[Dunbar]

On 10/07/2024 at 15:20, Griff said:

Like Alan Prescott was in 1958?  He said himself that the Aussies could have got him off the field at any time but they had too much respect for each other.

You seem to have quite an idealised view of how Rugby League players will or won't exploit weaknesses.

During a tv game, when a player is struggling in the defensive line with an obvious injury it is common for the co-commentator (always an ex player) to say they will be targeted by the attacking side.

There are a lot of grey areas in Rugby League, but this one seems fairly straightforward to me.  Is it OK to try and injure a player, no.  Is it OK to try and exploit a weakness in what is a very physical sport, yes.

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

You seem to have quite an idealised view of how Rugby League players will or won't exploit weaknesses.

During a tv game, when a player is struggling in the defensive line with an obvious injury it is common for the co-commentator (always an ex player) to say they will be targeted by the attacking side.

There are a lot of grey areas in Rugby League, but this one seems fairly straightforward to me.  Is it OK to try and injure a player, no.  Is it OK to try and exploit a weakness in what is a very physical sport, yes.

It happens in all sports too. Using your strengths and exploiting weaknesses is how teams/individuals win in any sport. As far as I can see everyone has condemned the unsavoury aspects of this, such as the noose drawing, and draw the line at foul play or intent to injure. No one has condoned that. Cheat sheets and fairly exploiting weaknesses is absolutely fair game though.