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RFL needs to reform access to SL for Co-Op C. Clubs


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#41 RidingPie

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 02:13 PM

Lobby

are you saying that if an NL1 (or 2) club got its marketing strategy bang on, with great links to the community, got it right on the pitch too and played an attractive brand of football that their crowds would still drop because they couldn't apply for SL for another 3 years?



#42 Wolford6

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 02:17 PM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 8 2010, 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
be careful with comparing a gain of SL fans to a loss of NL fans. It is the latter (like me) who are more likely to be a hardcore RL fan, subscriber to sky for RL only, watcher of internationals/cup finals, rather than the former who is more likely to be a casual fan/handwaver



During their worst-performing season for over thirty years, Bradford attracted an average crowd of over 8,000 casual fans/handwavers.

How many hardcore RL fans did Leigh attact when they had their one glorious season in Superleague, or even the season when they won the Challenge Cup?

You've got a good stadium and
- if your business plan was good enough
- if you could attract an average crowd of 5000 - 8000
- if your team was good enough to win something or reach a final at their current level

then you'd get a franchise.

Till then, you're just a small town in Wigan.

Nothing to see here, move along, move along

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#43 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 02:17 PM

QUOTE (West Country Eagle @ Sep 8 2010, 03:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That won't stop him.

REctangular stadia all round! Heckmondwyke for Super League! Etc


WCE - you seem like a bright lad. Do you honestly think that 2nd tier crowds will be much more than 1k with no hope of SL until 2015? This last couple of years has shown that the lack of the annual guaraneteed carrot is unpopular with fans. When Widnes get the nod next time, the remaining contenders will lose heart and we'll be left with bare bones. It'll be like watching amateur RL rather than your boyhood pro team.

Also how will the likes of Sheffield survive on these sub-1k crowds? Where will the money come from to play for exotic imports from PNG etc - because it ain't gonna be through the turnstyles

#44 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 02:18 PM

QUOTE (RidingPie @ Sep 8 2010, 03:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Lobby

are you saying that if an NL1 (or 2) club got its marketing strategy bang on, with great links to the community, got it right on the pitch too and played an attractive brand of football that their crowds would still drop because they couldn't apply for SL for another 3 years?


Absolutely spot on.

#45 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 02:22 PM

QUOTE (Wolford6 @ Sep 8 2010, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
During their worst-performing season for over thirty years, Bradford attracted an average crowd of over 8,000 casual fans/handwavers.

How many hardcore RL fans did Leigh attact when they had their one glorious season in Superleague, or even the season when they won the Challenge Cup?

You've got a good stadium and
- if your business plan was good enough
- if you could attract an average crowd of 5000 - 8000
- if your team was good enough to win something or reach a final at their current level

then you'd get a franchise.

Till then, you're just a small town in Wigan.

Nothing to see here, move along, move along

dry.gif


Bradford were still well clear of the bottom two so you cannot compare. I would be wary of gloating given the huge %drop in attendances at the landfill this year. By the way is your club saving to get its ground in order for the next round of licenses? The focus might be on Wakey and Cas this time but next time it'll be Bradford with the sheer lack of cover

What was Bradfords consistent attendance in the 80's up unti 1995 by the way?

#46 RP London

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 02:32 PM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 8 2010, 02:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Err no. Actually my post is applicable for all Co-Op clubs (bar Widnes who will get the nod)

I've no qualms about not going up NEXT YEAR, or even the year after, however what I simply cannot tolerate is a 5 year ##### wait in a no-mark competion with nowt to play for. So goodbye sky sports from next year onwards


as per form.. the bit in bold is just not true is it.. as the last 3 years have proved and you have said earlier.. you have to win something to be able to apply (or at least get to a grand final) if you cant do that then you cant apply.. as such there is something to play for.. but rather than that being youir sole concern you also need to get other things sorted off the field to make sure that you are viable when you get up...


(BTW you also lost out last time round.. sympathy goes to Widnes becuase of the way as a club they did and continued to respond to this. rather than Leigh's moneing and then continued on with the relegation last year of moqaning that they shouldnt have goen due to Tolouse etc etc.. and yet you put forward again the idea of clubs being ringfenced so that this can contiunue to happen yet fans of your own club could not cope with tis in champ one.. how the hell would they cope with it if a 14 team league had 3 ringfenced and you went down in 11th.. )

#47 RidingPie

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 02:34 PM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 8 2010, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Absolutely spot on.


can you prove this or is it one big supposition?

Can you show me an NL1 or 2 club that has tightened its links to its community, got its marketing spot on, is playing attractive football AND has significantly declining crowds?

#48 West Country Eagle

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 02:37 PM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 8 2010, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
WCE - you seem like a bright lad. Do you honestly think that 2nd tier crowds will be much more than 1k with no hope of SL until 2015? This last couple of years has shown that the lack of the annual guaraneteed carrot is unpopular with fans. When Widnes get the nod next time, the remaining contenders will lose heart and we'll be left with bare bones. It'll be like watching amateur RL rather than your boyhood pro team.

Also how will the likes of Sheffield survive on these sub-1k crowds? Where will the money come from to play for exotic imports from PNG etc - because it ain't gonna be through the turnstyles


Sheffield Eagles have a business model that isn't overly dependent on crowds of a certain size. Since moving to DVS, they've always been able to offer potential sponsors and corporate hospitality types brilliant value compared to the other pro sports clubs in the region - Wednesday, United, Barnsley FC, and the Steelers. Although I'd imagine the market is tougher now than it was, what the Eagles offer those sorts of people is terrific value. I was told (a few years ago, admittedly) that the corporate side of the Eagles business was comparable to that of some Super League clubs. Remember, Sheffield is a big city - while it has always proved hard to get fans in week in, week out, the business community has always been supportive of the Eagles. Gary Hetherington was big on this - he realized it was the lifeblood of the club at that time.

The Eagles are also realistic about their position and their finances. They do not make turnover predictions based on possible gates. They do not survive with the assistance of a 'sugardaddy'. They have not staked everything on getting promoted to Super League. I know for a fact that SL is still their long term aim, but they are sensible and realistic enough to realize that the only way that will happen is if they do X, Y and Z.

The Eagles team is relatively inexpensive. They have lost out on certain players, and let others go, because their wage demands were too high. Many of these players found what they were looking for from other clubs, but these clubs are now struggling to pay the bills.

The Eagles are used to making their business work without much cash. Luckily they have a board of directors who are realistic and want League to succeed in Sheffield over decades, maybe longer, not the next three years.

I would love to see the Eagles in Super League again, of course, but it's got to be at a point where the club is in the right position to make a good go of it. That time will come in a few years, I'm sure. Until then, they will survive, slowly improve on and on the pitch, and continue doing what they see as vtal to the business: community, development and education work.

I agree in principle with your point that something needs to change, but automatic P&R isn't it. If we could get a fully professional (or at least largely fully professional) second tier, with similar but lower standards to SL, then the return of promotion and relegation is an option. At the moment it isn't.
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#49 RP London

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 02:42 PM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 8 2010, 02:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
WCE - you seem like a bright lad. Do you honestly think that 2nd tier crowds will be much more than 1k with no hope of SL until 2015? This last couple of years has shown that the lack of the annual guaraneteed carrot is unpopular with fans. When Widnes get the nod next time, the remaining contenders will lose heart and we'll be left with bare bones. It'll be like watching amateur RL rather than your boyhood pro team.

Also how will the likes of Sheffield survive on these sub-1k crowds? Where will the money come from to play for exotic imports from PNG etc - because it ain't gonna be through the turnstyles


so paragraph 1 we'll have crowds "not much more than 1k" then second paragraph "these sub-1k crowds" which is it ffs?

second paragraph answer.. the way we do now??

Get your marketing right, get the comp marketed right and people will still come.. mabe not the droves that you seem to think came before (that actually didnt) but still they will come..

give liscencing a chance you havent even given it a round yet..



#50 JohnM

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 03:04 PM

The world is changing and if Rugby League does not change with it, it will die. This applies equally well to International RL, Sl and all levels below that. The game at the International level is changing but has a long way to go. Sl is in a pretty good state, limited only by the sales and marketing creativity of some clubs.

In my opinion, there are very very few Championship clubs that could in their wildest dreams have a sustainable future in SuperLeage and Leigh is not one of them. The writing was on the wall for Leigh many many years ago even before Tim Street was playing. There are too many clubs with a long-term record of playing and commercial success close by, for one. The last thing we want is for yet another club to go bust in its attempts to buy its way in as this is always at the expense of the taxpayer, the players and the creditors. No more , please.

Of course, it can be done: because of its embracing of and drive to comply with the SL licence criteria, because of the workmanlike way it has gone about things, and because it has an enviable record of success in within living memory, (and so able to bring back lapsed fans) Widnes, (like as Hull KR has already shown is possible), is well able to have a sustainable future in SL. And that is what the licensing criteria , or broadly-based P and R is about.

Give it a few years and other spots will start to look at this approach. Give it another few years and Lobby will still be worshiping Jude the Apostle, the patron saint of desperate cases and lost causes.

Edited by JohnM, 08 September 2010 - 03:07 PM.


#51 shrek

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 03:13 PM

QUOTE (JohnM @ Sep 8 2010, 04:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Give it a few years and other spots will start to look at this approach.


I think your right on that front, it can only be a matter of a few years before we have a football breakaway in Europe, the gulf in the Premier League is getting to big, these billionaire owners aren't going to be wanting to play the likes of Blackpool, Wigan and WBA, for them, once they've sampled the big European nights I bet thats all they long for and the wads of cash that go with it.

With regards to the ongoing debate about dwindling crowds in the Championship, has anyone actually bothered to ask people in anything like a meaningful way why they arn't going? To you it maybe P&R, they simply might not think that 12 to 15 quid to watch part time sports men is actually that good a deal, or maybe god forbid, they just fell out of love with rugby altogether, people change, circumstances change.

#52 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 03:14 PM

QUOTE (RidingPie @ Sep 8 2010, 03:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
can you prove this or is it one big supposition?

Can you show me an NL1 or 2 club that has tightened its links to its community, got its marketing spot on, is playing attractive football AND has significantly declining crowds?


Barrow

#53 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 03:20 PM

QUOTE (JohnM @ Sep 8 2010, 04:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The world is changing and if Rugby League does not change with it, it will die. This applies equally well to International RL, Sl and all levels below that. The game at the International level is changing but has a long way to go. Sl is in a pretty good state, limited only by the sales and marketing creativity of some clubs.

In my opinion, there are very very few Championship clubs that could in their wildest dreams have a sustainable future in SuperLeage and Leigh is not one of them. The writing was on the wall for Leigh many many years ago even before Tim Street was playing. There are too many clubs with a long-term record of playing and commercial success close by, for one. The last thing we want is for yet another club to go bust in its attempts to buy its way in as this is always at the expense of the taxpayer, the players and the creditors. No more , please.

Of course, it can be done: because of its embracing of and drive to comply with the SL licence criteria, because of the workmanlike way it has gone about things, and because it has an enviable record of success in within living memory, (and so able to bring back lapsed fans) Widnes, (like as Hull KR has already shown is possible), is well able to have a sustainable future in SL. And that is what the licensing criteria , or broadly-based P and R is about.

Give it a few years and other spots will start to look at this approach. Give it another few years and Lobby will still be worshiping Jude the Apostle, the patron saint of desperate cases and lost causes.


What is your opionion on Saints huge losses this season? Is a huge loss acceptable (and maybe being close to going bust), but going bust (but by a small amount) not acceptable.

By the way I don't recall Leigh going bust, so why they are used as an example i'm not sure. One thing for sure is that there has been a big increase in clubs going bust/insolvent in the co-op leagues SINCE licensing. So although the top14 are feasting off sky cash (apid for by many non-SL fans) lower league clubs get very little

#54 The Parksider

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 03:23 PM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 8 2010, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Parky - This post is however not attacking the SL concept ince 1996 so your post is irrelevant. P&R was only shelved a couple of years ago so really the before/after point for comparison should be the last licensing decision.

I don't recall a huge increase in SL crowds since the licensing decision

Why do you rabbit on about Dewsbury. Actually in my example they are one of the poorest supported clubs who are have been at the bare bones level of around 1k for many years. Those sorts of crowds are the future in Co-op 1 unless something is done.



co-op 1 averaged 1,700 last year. Dewsbury average 1200. If the average in NL1 drops to Dewsbury levels then 5,500 NL fans will be lost to the game.

I think the Superleague clubs will easily make that increase now we have Salford's ground, Widnes coming in, possible grounds at Cas and Wakey and hopefully Bradford alone will put a few thousand back on their crowds.

I agree something should be done - but it should be done about NL1 - it should be a 14 club competition with standards, well run and marketed and if that happens I see no reason crowds won't actually stay at current levels.

It would surely be a pleasure to follow leigh in such a division rather than have a three year giant financial loss stint in SL? Or are you not telling us something about the personal wealth of your club directors??

#55 The Parksider

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 03:27 PM

QUOTE (JohnM @ Sep 8 2010, 04:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In my opinion, there are very very few Championship clubs that could in their wildest dreams have a sustainable future in SuperLeage and Leigh is not one of them.


John,

Take Widnes (an SL club in all but name) and Toulouse of - who else were you thinking of in the "few" comment??

#56 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 03:31 PM

Threads started by Lobbygobbler to do with franchising:

RFL needs to reform access to SL for Co-Op C. Clubs (08/09/10)
Bradford and Odsal (19/08/2010)
Stadium Criteria for SL (28/07/10)
2 year P&R cycle idea (for heartland teams) (30/03/10)
What will happen after the current 3 year license system? (22/12/09)
RL Expansion in England, Why is it failing at the semi-pro level (10/11/09)
RFL need to be consistent with licensing/P&R (15/09/09)


Seven in a year, so looking at more than one every two months. Mate, people are getting pretty bored of it! If you've got something new to add to it, why not bring up one of these threads and add to it again?

Can I make a request to the moderators to merge all of these threads into a "Lobbygobbler Licensing Complaint (merged)" thread so we don't have to trawl through the same ###### over and over?
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#57 JohnM

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 03:42 PM

Widnes and possibly Toulouse under special conditions.

I think its a question as much as anything of location for starters. I'm thinking of clubs that have clear country around them, with a relatively high population in the travel-to-work area, without the magnetic pull of existing big clubs. even though this might rule Barrow in, I don't think there is a big enough sustainable fan, spectator and and sponsor base. Then the club has to be attractive enough for players to relocate there and the club has to have good,sound management at all levels.

I also happen to think that many clubs have had many years to get this right, so should not be surprised at calls to start new clubs from scratch in new areas.

#58 RP London

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 03:53 PM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 8 2010, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What is your opionion on Saints huge losses this season? Is a huge loss acceptable (and maybe being close to going bust), but going bust (but by a small amount) not acceptable.

By the way I don't recall Leigh going bust, so why they are used as an example i'm not sure. One thing for sure is that there has been a big increase in clubs going bust/insolvent in the co-op leagues SINCE licensing. So although the top14 are feasting off sky cash (apid for by many non-SL fans) lower league clubs get very little

when a club goes bust it is historical it isnt the last year per se.. it is poor management for a long time.. liscencing has not caused this.

umpteen sports are talking about this..l it has been spoken about in RU for some time, Northern Irish football did a similar thing last year in a different way granted but still its a liscencing..

The problem is the jump from semi pro to pro on all levels on field and off field that causes issues dropping down AND stepping up, liscening is there to try and ease this a little and to concentrate the champ clubs' minds on getting the businesses up to the level where by they can close this gap and reopen p&r or expand the Super League to incorporate all who can be involved.

#59 RP London

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 03:59 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Sep 8 2010, 03:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
co-op 1 averaged 1,700 last year. Dewsbury average 1200. If the average in NL1 drops to Dewsbury levels then 5,500 NL fans will be lost to the game.

I think the Superleague clubs will easily make that increase now we have Salford's ground, Widnes coming in, possible grounds at Cas and Wakey and hopefully Bradford alone will put a few thousand back on their crowds.

I agree something should be done - but it should be done about NL1 - it should be a 14 club competition with standards, well run and marketed and if that happens I see no reason crowds won't actually stay at current levels.

It would surely be a pleasure to follow leigh in such a division rather than have a three year giant financial loss stint in SL? Or are you not telling us something about the personal wealth of your club directors??


spot on.

#60 West Country Eagle

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 04:02 PM

Lobby, would you be happy in the Coop Championship if we could guarantee Leigh fans two matches against Wigan a season? That's all most Leigh fans seem to care about.
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