The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[oldrover]

Keep it going Terry 231 pages now.

 

Keep skirting around the problem

 

Not enough fans to run competitive SL clubs at any more than seven or eight clubs.

 

But worry not Mr. K suggests even Doncaster can become SL on 700 fans??

 

Perhaps in light of this cheap/dear season ticket thing maybe the way to get the funds in at Fev is to double the intended season ticket prices once your are in Superleague. At Donny the 700 could be asked to pay 15 times more for tickets so the revenue would equate to 10,500 fans?

 

Craiq has already told us financing at LSV will need only 5,000 fans to compete with the big boys. Money problems over all around the Championship SL wannabees,

 

But what about players? Here's Steve Gill CEO Castleford on the SKY deal.....

 

"There are fewer kids playing Rugby League in our area than ever"

 

He wants to get down to Doncaster where in about 12 years they have produced about one Superleague class professional in Ian Kirke.

 

I know that those who champion small clubs to be big clubs have to have extreme arguments to do so but come on. To try to make out all Donny have to do is raise ticket prices x15 and find 24 more Ian Kirke's is fantasy RL.

 

Which I suppose is a bit of fun. See ya on page 232.

steve gill's right, but out of last seasons u19s, how many did cas sign on, one. teams aren't prepared to take a chance on these kids now, hence tonks and baldwinson being allowed to leave leeds. i'm glad that john bastian is picking some of these lads up and putting the necessary work into them, cos when we no longer produce our own,it's gonna be cheap imports.

[Scubby]

probably the same as the last 100 pages on this thread nothing. And they are free by the way if you wish to know

 

I think some fans, especially from one club, should just chill out a bit and look forward to the season. They are coming across as having a bit of a chip on their shoulder here and that is not the case for many of the fans at that club. The decision has been made and we have to put up with it. I don't agree with it but it is done. There is a great season to look forward to.

[sweaty craiq]

Oh dear, you have Ponte holding your coat again!!

 

Here we go.....

 

Bradford £220

Wakefield £205

Leigh £160

Fev £159

 

Whose "cheap" again???

 

Bradford £75 and Wakey £100 in 2012 I recall

[sweaty craiq]

 

 

Craiq has already told us financing at LSV will need only 5,000 fans to compete with the big boys. Money problems over all around the Championship SL wannabees,

 

 

 

How does that create money problems? Seems the opposite to me

[DAZROVER1985]

I think some fans, especially from one club, should just chill out a bit and look forward to the season. They are coming across as having a bit of a chip on their shoulder here and that is not the case for many of the fans at that club. The decision has been made and we have to put up with it. I don't agree with it but it is done. There is a great season to look forward to.

Agreed, although I'm looking forward to next season quite a lot more

[Scubby]

Agreed, although I'm looking forward to next season quite a lot more

 

Me too mate. Believe it or not we are both on the same side, rooting for the same club. Some of the fans just need to reign it in a little or we will get stuck with the chippy tag. The club has changed so much more since the old days.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Scubby

[Vikingstorm]

To advance our game and our sport and our National team, we need more than what was offered by Wakefield last night.

 

It was not good enough.

 

 

I read the questions over Widnes and the attendance of 5000 plus against London- That was also not good enough , Nor where the excuses about being a small town

 

Inspirational people drive things forward. Like Koukash at Salford, Like McManus at Saints like Davy at Huddersfield and even though im not a fan like Leneghan at Wigan

 London has no inspirational Leader and Nor do several rugby league teams....We are reducing to 12 because we are not strong enough for 14.

 

Our game is fantastic though.....Teams need to step up to the plate- OR be replaced

[Father Ted]

It may well become a 12 team SL but with the re-structure to eight clubs with four bottom clubs playing the top four from the Championship it could become effectively an eight team SL.

Those eight clubs could pull away in ability, crowds, players signings and balance sheets from their other SL counterparts. This may make it almost impossible for the others to catch up.

[Ackroman]

.....here we go again...round and round and round

[The Parksider]

.....here we go again...round and round and round

 

You've clearly got no argument against this.

 

The OP has it bang on and it's worth him saying it again as long as people live in a dreamland that little clubs with no real junior game or fanbase will one day be Superleague clubs.

 

The OP is at a small club himself striving to be big and knows the score bang on so it's worth him saying it. There will not be lines of kids from outside the north queuing up to add to the player pool. Who we do have after 17 years of a free gangway are mainly remnants of failed expansion clubs.

 

The OP was bang on again when he lamented Widnes have four Junior RL clubs and they need to get the swathes of the Halton district who don't have RL in their hearts playing. Yet the game has given the opportunity to clubs like Leigh and Fev with less junior clubs than Widnes and far less fans than Widnes the chance to be superleague clubs.

 

Hans christian Anderson or the Brothers Grimm could not have done a better job.

 

The other day someone said Parky, why do you repeat your posts and thoughts ad nauseum. The reason I do is so many people repeat their thoughts that just around the corner crowds are going to boom, juniors are about to flock to the game, the small clubs will become large clubs and the world will wake up and realise RL is the game.

 

Why do so many of us do this?? Is it because we have good analytical brains and realise that if we want the old world of RL to survive, wishful thinking is actually the best plan??.

 

If you really really want to stop this "here we go again round and round" nonsense then you should encourage people to face some very very hard facts about Rugby League.

 

That's what business has to do to make the right decisions and what deeply saddens me is that the RFL clearly live in a KPMG inspired dreamland. The lot of them should be locked in a room to watch repeat after repeat of Wakefield.v.Bradford and the 4,000 fans viewing on from the sides of the dump until they resign.

[The Parksider]

It may well become a 12 team SL but with the re-structure to eight clubs with four bottom clubs playing the top four from the Championship it could become effectively an eight team SL.

Those eight clubs could pull away in ability, crowds, players signings and balance sheets from their other SL counterparts. This may make it almost impossible for the others to catch up.

 

That's my analysis Ted. Not often I agree with you and one wonders why this is happening.

 

For me it's a precursor to getting all the daft ideas that P & R is the future, small clubs will become big clubs, and big crowds will swell the games coffers out of everyone's system.

 

Then after 20 years wasted years of mucking about the game can plan something radical, to finally drag us out of the past.

[Steve Slater]

You've clearly got no argument against this.

 

The OP has it bang on and it's worth him saying it again as long as people live in a dreamland that little clubs with no real junior game or fanbase will one day be Superleague clubs.

 

The OP is at a small club himself striving to be big and knows the score bang on so it's worth him saying it. There will not be lines of kids from outside the north queuing up to add to the player pool. Who we do have after 17 years of a free gangway are mainly remnants of failed expansion clubs.

 

The OP was bang on again when he lamented Widnes have four Junior RL clubs and they need to get the swathes of the Halton district who don't have RL in their hearts playing. Yet the game has given the opportunity to clubs like Leigh and Fev with less junior clubs than Widnes and far less fans than Widnes the chance to be superleague clubs.

 

Hans christian Anderson or the Brothers Grimm could not have done a better job.

 

The other day someone said Parky, why do you repeat your posts and thoughts ad nauseum. The reason I do is so many people repeat their thoughts that just around the corner crowds are going to boom, juniors are about to flock to the game, the small clubs will become large clubs and the world will wake up and realise RL is the game.

 

Why do so many of us do this?? Is it because we have good analytical brains and realise that if we want the old world of RL to survive, wishful thinking is actually the best plan??.

 

If you really really want to stop this "here we go again round and round" nonsense then you should encourage people to face some very very hard facts about Rugby League.

 

That's what business has to do to make the right decisions and what deeply saddens me is that the RFL clearly live in a KPMG inspired dreamland. The lot of them should be locked in a room to watch repeat after repeat of Wakefield.v.Bradford and the 4,000 fans viewing on from the sides of the dump until they resign.

The hard facts are that there are only 8 or so "Super Clubs", the rest are no better than Fev, Fax, Leigh etc. It's not the fault of the Championship clubs. Will we ever get more than 8? Because I've a feeling that if one club steps up to the plate, another will fall into mediocrity.

[Griff]

P+R and Licensing both have the same problem.

 

Not enough clubs are up to the required mark.

 

Changing the structure of the game won't alter that.

[Jimmy B]

 

Not enough clubs are up to the required mark.

 

 

 

Wasn't this said by the dinasaurs in 1995 ?

Edited February 22, 2014 by Jimmy B

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Wasn't this said by the dinasaurs in 1995 ?

 

And It's still true today.

[Steve Slater]

P+R and Licensing both have the same problem.

 

Not enough clubs are up to the required mark.

 

Changing the structure of the game won't alter that.

No it won't, but if you ring fence the "also-rans" of Super League you condemn the rest to a lifetime of obscurity, and areas that have been famous for producing talent will have fewer youngsters playing the game. We need to find a way of bringing more through the gates at all clubs, not just at the top.

That way, the player pool will grow.

[Ackroman]

You've clearly got no argument against this.

 

The OP has it bang on and it's worth him saying it again as long as people live in a dreamland that little clubs with no real junior game or fanbase will one day be Superleague clubs.

 

The OP is at a small club himself striving to be big and knows the score bang on so it's worth him saying it. There will not be lines of kids from outside the north queuing up to add to the player pool. Who we do have after 17 years of a free gangway are mainly remnants of failed expansion clubs.

 

The OP was bang on again when he lamented Widnes have four Junior RL clubs and they need to get the swathes of the Halton district who don't have RL in their hearts playing. Yet the game has given the opportunity to clubs like Leigh and Fev with less junior clubs than Widnes and far less fans than Widnes the chance to be superleague clubs.

 

Hans christian Anderson or the Brothers Grimm could not have done a better job.

 

The other day someone said Parky, why do you repeat your posts and thoughts ad nauseum. The reason I do is so many people repeat their thoughts that just around the corner crowds are going to boom, juniors are about to flock to the game, the small clubs will become large clubs and the world will wake up and realise RL is the game.

 

Why do so many of us do this?? Is it because we have good analytical brains and realise that if we want the old world of RL to survive, wishful thinking is actually the best plan??.

 

If you really really want to stop this "here we go again round and round" nonsense then you should encourage people to face some very very hard facts about Rugby League.

 

That's what business has to do to make the right decisions and what deeply saddens me is that the RFL clearly live in a KPMG inspired dreamland. The lot of them should be locked in a room to watch repeat after repeat of Wakefield.v.Bradford and the 4,000 fans viewing on from the sides of the dump until they resign.

 

..now we have the thread merged my comment looks somewhat out of context. We didn't need a new thread, hence what I put so back off.

[Ackroman]

No it won't, but if you ring fence the "also-rans" of Super League you condemn the rest to a lifetime of obscurity, and areas that have been famous for producing talent will have fewer youngsters playing the game. We need to find a way of bringing more through the gates at all clubs, not just at the top.

That way, the player pool will grow.

 

Pretty much all sports have an elite few who can win the title. The rest are also rans. The fact is though that these clubs have a right to compete with each other, not be segregated arbitrarily. In many, many examples, clubs focus on being the best at where they are at. At least with P&R this allows for limited ambitions to be realised. Just because the same club cannot win the title does not make it less worthy a cause to invest in or achieve.

 

To continually focus on a elite top 8 as an argument to put down ambition is boring. How many of us are considered in the elite in what we do? How many of us are achieving our potential? Surely the second measure is more valuable to our motivation and true worth than focussing on something beyond our reach. How many of us stop in bed because we can't be elite? It would be worthless to try if all investment fell to the feet of those considered elite, and not within reach of those who can better themselves.

 

This is why I find the argument over elite v underchiever or whatever you wish to call it, vacuous, disingenuous and frankly it bores the pectorials off me.

[LordCharles]

The hard facts are that there are only 8 or so "Super Clubs", the rest are no better than Fev, Fax, Leigh etc. It's not the fault of the Championship clubs. Will we ever get more than 8? Because I've a feeling that if one club steps up to the plate, another will fall into mediocrity.

If the hard facts are that there are 8 super clubs then as a sport we should do something like this if we want to move forward.

Give say 10 approximately £2,250,000 each a season (£22.5 million), only allow one overseas player per squad to promote the opportunities for English players and the best youth in the country.

Overseas players are classed as anyone who has not been resident in the UK for the last 5 years, so even if you have a passport for the UK, your uncle was born in Scotland or your great grandmother grew up in the valley's etc etc etc you are classed as a quota player.

From that 10 teams you have a maximum of 10 overseas players in total, you play 18 league fixtures, plus playoff fixtures and have a cup comp, a rep comp series and a regular international schedule.

The door is shut, P&R never returns and everybody else plays in a Championship comp on equal financial terms and a part time basis!!!

That includes the French because in reality the European SL is hardly a reflection of a European contingent and a European interest!!!!

Wigan

Wire

Saints

Leeds

Huddersfield

Hull

Salford

The other 3 spots are up for grabs, but surely need to be based on the long term financial stability and backing a club has in place and it's fan base, ie the capability to realistically generate 10k home gates week in and week out.

Even if it means creating new clubs such as a Cas/ Wakey merger or turning Salford in to Greater Manchester (Salford,Swinton,Oldham) or just Humberside (FC/KR), Huddsfax is another!

Edited February 23, 2014 by LordCharles

[keighley]

If the hard facts are that there are 8 super clubs then as a sport we should do something like this if we want to move forward.

Give say 10 approximately £2,250,000 each a season (£22.5 million), only allow one overseas player per squad to promote the opportunities for English players and the best youth in the country.

Overseas players are classed as anyone who has not been resident in the UK for the last 5 years, so even if you have a passport for the UK, your uncle was born in Scotland or your great grandmother grew up in the valley's etc etc etc you are classed as a quota player.

From that 10 teams you have a maximum of 10 overseas players in total, you play 18 league fixtures, plus playoff fixtures and have a cup comp, a rep comp series and a regular international schedule.

The door is shut, P&R never returns and everybody else plays in a Championship comp on equal financial terms and a part time basis!!!

That includes the French because in reality the European SL is hardly a reflection of a European contingent and a European interest!!!!

Wigan

Wire

Saints

Leeds

Huddersfield

Hull

Salford

The other 3 spots are up for grabs, but surely need to be based on the long term financial stability and backing a club has in place and it's fan base, ie the capability to realistically generate 10k home gates week in and week out.

Even if it means creating new clubs such as a Cas/ Wakey merger or turning Salford in to Greater Manchester (Salford,Swinton,Oldham) or just Humberside (FC/KR), Huddsfax is another!

That's just so ambitious. A whole sport of just 10 northern teams, ring fenced forever. That should really appeal to Sky who want to sell dishes throughout England. It should really expand the fan base to astronomical proportions and should produce a wide variety of interesting fixtures of wide geographical spread.

It should also encourage entrepreneurs to put their money into the game, the only question is where would they invest since there are only ten teams and they will already have their money men in place.

London will be gone, any chance of Wales or the midlands will be gone, France will be gone.

That is so forward looking and full of optimism for the games future, I don't know why we havn't done it years ago. A 10 team sport. What a great idea ? Small and irrelevant is the way to the future.

[bobbruce]

If the hard facts are that there are 8 super clubs then as a sport we should do something like this if we want to move forward.

Give say 10 approximately £2,250,000 each a season (£22.5 million), only allow one overseas player per squad to promote the opportunities for English players and the best youth in the country.

Overseas players are classed as anyone who has not been resident in the UK for the last 5 years, so even if you have a passport for the UK, your uncle was born in Scotland or your great grandmother grew up in the valley's etc etc etc you are classed as a quota player.

r!

So if one of the burgesses or Tomkins wanted to return to SL after a couple of years in the NRL they count as an overseas player?.

[nadera78]

That's just so ambitious. A whole sport of just 10 northern teams, ring fenced forever. That should really appeal to Sky who want to sell dishes throughout England. It should really expand the fan base to astronomical proportions and should produce a wide variety of interesting fixtures of wide geographical spread.It should also encourage entrepreneurs to put their money into the game, the only question is where would they invest since there are only ten teams and they will already have their money men in place.London will be gone, any chance of Wales or the midlands will be gone, France will be gone.That is so forward looking and full of optimism for the games future, I don't know why we havn't done it years ago. A 10 team sport. What a great idea ? Small and irrelevant is the way to the future.

London are gone, Wales is gone, the midlands never started, France has been blocked.

[keighley]

London are gone, Wales is gone, the midlands never started, France has been blocked.

London are gone, Wales is gone, the midlands never started, France has been blocked.

Last time I looked there were two teams in London, two in Wales and one in France with plans in hand to give Toulouse a Championship place. There have been plans to give Coventry a CC1 place for a couple of years.

With p and r, sort of, scheduled to return, all these teams can theoretically make SL.

[The Parksider]

P+R and Licensing both have the same problem.

 

Not enough clubs are up to the required mark.

 

Changing the structure of the game won't alter that.

 

That's as good a simple analysis as I've ever had.

 

If changing the structure of the game won't alter the clubs then isn't it obvious that the solution is to change the structure of the clubs?

 

All our clubs are continually trying to be what they were in 1995 only full time professional outfits.

 

As they stand so many can't get a crowd to sustain this (4,000 at Wakey, 5,000 at Cas, 5,000 at Widnes) so many can't develop players (couple of Wakey lads playing in SL as first picks, handful of Warrington and Salford/Manchester lads equally playing as first picks).

 

So what did Uncle Maurice propose???

 

Here we go again around and around..................

[The Parksider]

If you ring fence the "also-rans" of Super League you condemn the rest to a lifetime of obscurity, and areas that have been famous for producing talent will have fewer youngsters playing the game. We need to find a way of bringing more through the gates at all clubs, not just at the top.

That way, the player pool will grow.

 

Your right IMVHO to warn against ring fencing failures.

 

But perhaps we should look at your "areas that have been famous for producing talent".......

 

Leeds

Calder

Bradhuddersfax

Hull

Wigan

Widnes

Manchester/Salford

St.Helens

Warrington

South of France

 

Why not ring fence a club for each of those areas then we will ensure that places that produce players and attract fans through the turnstiles are not "condemned to a lifetime of obscurity".

 

Totally logical stuff, but those who want to preserve all the small clubs of yesteryear, clubs who put off people attending their games, clubs who don't produce players but feed off clubs who do, will baulk at this and find an argument for preserving the status quo, i.e. throwing money at preserving the past rather than investing in the future.

Edited February 23, 2014 by The Parksider