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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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I am no mutineer!  Too old,  Now the format is here i shall support my team as normal, Regarding the middle 8, May the best teams win, and be promoted.

 

My post was pointing out to another poster where the main revenue comes from, and that the SL chairmen are well aware of it.

 

If this new system proves to be not what is hoped, I would certainly not rule out a SL breakaway at some future point,  The bottom line is the sport is about Money now, and it will dictate the direction it goes in.

 

It would actually be nice if this new Format was a roaring success, we live in hope.

I hope even sl would not  be stupid enough to go for a breakaway.It would be the ultimate betrayal to the game of rugby league in my book.

As a fartowner mr.g and knowing your history i hope you wouldn't agree to such a move.

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Good to hear it Robin.

 

I've always tried to be positive and optimistic about the game, even when as now, I think the new set-up is not the best. However, as a fan of the game, I'll do whatever I can in my limited way to make it work. I certainly won't boycott  the game or spend my life feeling hard done to and crying unfair, like some have on here. I  am happy to recommend positivity and optimism as it is generally easier more enjoyable and more pleasant than bearing a misplaced grudge for year after year after year.

 

It's the off season so we do tend to get a bit introspective. Come the season and I doubt if a single fan will refuse to go to a game because of the new structure. 

 

I was in favour of licencing because it seemed to offer a way out of the boom and bust that characterised our game.  That didn't happen so I'm now in favour a trying something new - it might make a tiny improvement and if it improves crowds all well and good.

 

We just have to face the facts; our game is short of money. Money doesn't solve everything as the billion pound business of football shows when their clubs can go bust but it does help a little. What we do lack of course is strength in depth. Looking at the table for 1972 apart from Fev coming second and Hull and Huddersfield well down the table not a huge lot has changed.

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My God, that's embarrassing and desperate.

Try this then from Adam Pearson

'What I think we will see is a higher standard of rugby league, more high intensity games and a stronger competition.

'The fans will get more value for money with more games and games that have more meaning throughout the year and that are better quality.

'The competition needed shaking up as there were too many mismatches. We needed to go down to 12 teams with promotion and relegation. The new system has been voted in and we welcome it now and get on with the job of making sure we are in that top eight each and every year.'

Ian Lenagan

'I think it's definitely progress. I come out of the talks with a positive view'

Marwan Koukash

'Lets make it work'

Pleasing to read such positivity from top high profile SL chairmen.

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Strong support for new-look league from Saints chairman Eamonn McManus

http://www.totalrl.com/web/saints-chief-backs-new-look-league-plans/

 

I hope that was a slip of the tongue from McManus and not a sign of the RFL's strategic thinking with reference to RL in England; immediately he forgets about a SL French side, 2 x Welsh semi-professional sides and the potential Toulouse club.

 

Still a massive improvement on what they receive now.

 

There are consequences to unevenly splitting money between the Championship. There is already a fairly substantial gap between the haves and have nots in that division, especially as there is a massive difference between £650k to £150k at that level where access to quality players is severely limited. This reform could increase those gaps further and inadvertantly destroy what actually is a very good competition in its own right. 

 

How do they receive now? In the future they will all receive £75k.

 

I believe it is £70k, which was recently reduced from a slightly higher figure. The Championship 1 clubs have been ignored as £5k is pittance.

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I hope even sl would not  be stupid enough to go for a breakaway.It would be the ultimate betrayal to the game of rugby league in my book.

As a fartowner mr.g and knowing your history i hope you wouldn't agree to such a move.

 

I doubt anyone would be asking my opinion to be honest,

 

I know where you are coming from here, and i can tell you that much of the stuff i have posted on this thread is not particularly what i would prefer, But also i am a realist, I get the feeling that you may be a Fartowner yourself ( just a guess ) and if so you have had your share of pain, if you are anything like my age.

 

I do believe that the game is now all about money ( something backed up by Huddersfield's present position ) And i also believe ( maybe wrongly ) that the RFL have underperformed badly over the years, League has fallen badly behind other sports in every way other than on the field, as far as i can see, especially in sponsors  and TV money , I can see that not being able to expand the game beyond the homeland  other than Catalan,and London won't have helped, but nevertheless i feel they have not done as well as they should, just MO.

 

I well remember the days when i could afford to go to all home games, many away ones, Yorkshire cup games, Yorks/ Lancs/Cumbria games , and quite a few Aussie tour games. Those days are gone i'm afraid, there is a lot of competition for clubs today , and i think they have to deliver the best available to stand any chance at all. To deliver this they need big money, I think some of the top men amongst them are well aware of this, and although i believe they have Rugby league at heart ( they wouldn't be in it for profit ) i  think they will not be prepared to go on stumbling from one game saving scheme to the next for too long. 

 

I suppose what i am saying is that i don't believe ( nor do SL IMO ) that they arn't generating enough money to keep the game Elite at the top and also fund the lower league's as well, We have to remember some of them are putting a lot of money into the game , In reality few very successful money men put Millions into anything without wanting some say.

 

I personally don't think this is the way to go, but it doesn't mean i wouldn't be happy if it was a roaring success, It seems to me that a lot of the talk is about a lower level comp, and how competitive clubs would be at that level, I would prefer the talk to be more about how we can make it better , how we can keep the games top players here, and how we can close the gap on the Aussies, I don't see settling for lower level does that.

 

Being a Fartowner i have had 40 years of lower level and i am just very very glad K Davy did not settle for lower level, I realise how lucky we have been, and we should be trying to get more like him IMO, but they won't be queing up unless the game gets it's act together.  I hope the guy at Fev is the next, There is absolutely no denying the impact these people have, He could well transform Fev if he is prepared to go the distance, I for one hope he does.

Edited by GIANTSTRIDES

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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The money they will lose on crowds will be made back by not spending as much as they currently do on their salary cap. These so called poor SL clubs can now spend less on their cap if they get relegated. Also I'm sure most of them voted for this for that reason as they can't afford top flight rugby anymore. The so called poor SL clubs can now also spend less on their cap if they stay in the big 12 as I can't see wakey , bulls and London etc breaking into the top 8 anytime soon so they can spend say a mil on the cap and hope they can still fight off the top champ clubs its a win win for the poorer SL clubs IMO.

 

The Cas chief executive was ecstatic "The whole game will be better, I don't think it will ever change back" he said "There might be doubts now but in five or six years time people will realise it's a brilliant decision"

Brilliant as you say for a poor SL side who needs to reduce their spending, and will probably be very happy staying alive in the middle eight with several derbies against Wakey and Bradford.

 

Steve is excited about the Championship clubs "Like Featherstone and Sheffield Eagles" who he is likely to welcome to the jungle soon. He also says "this will create more competition".

 

I fully understand his position on this, for a financially stretched club fed up with their inability to compete in Superleague for so many years now creating a "who cares" attitude at the club, they will now be able to compete a step down.

 

A you say Gaz a win win for poorer Superleague clubs, however the flip side is how will they go on in the first 23 rounds if they re-adjust their Salary spending down to "A Mil(lion) pounds" as you suggest and become even less competitive in SL against the top eight???

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The Cas chief executive was ecstatic "The whole game will be better, I don't think it will ever change back" he said "There might be doubts now but in five or six years time people will realise it's a brilliant decision"

Brilliant as you say for a poor SL side who needs to reduce their spending, and will probably be very happy staying alive in the middle eight with several derbies against Wakey and Bradford.

 

Steve is excited about the Championship clubs "Like Featherstone and Sheffield Eagles" who he is likely to welcome to the jungle soon. He also says "this will create more competition".

 

I fully understand his position on this, for a financially stretched club fed up with their inability to compete in Superleague for so many years now creating a "who cares" attitude at the club, they will now be able to compete a step down.

 

A you say Gaz a win win for poorer Superleague clubs, however the flip side is how will they go on in the first 23 rounds if they re-adjust their Salary spending down to "A Mil(lion) pounds" as you suggest and become even less competitive in SL against the top eight???

 

That is why the proposed funding to the second tiers top clubs is key. They must be FT, and must run on the max cap (£900k?) that way if a club takes the gamble to save money they will end up in the second tier. I expect 6 full time clubs in the second tier in 2015

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I'm interested to see how the new format will work out.  At least we can try it for a couple of years and if it doesn't work out we can switch back to traditional P&R.

 

More important for me though is how the money is shared out.  The fact so little is given to clubs outside Superleague makes it difficult for any system to work properly.  Even though my club are in Superleague I'd be really happy if more of the funding was given to the next level down.  I think it would make the whole sport stronger.

 

An extra £100,000 for a Superleague club is nice but it's not going to radically change things.  In fact for a few of the biggest clubs they turn over much more than they need to pay the full salary cap, so you wonder why they want more money.  An extra £100,000 for a Championship club would transform the whole club.

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Try this then from Adam Pearson

'What I think we will see is a higher standard of rugby league, more high intensity games and a stronger competition.

'The fans will get more value for money with more games and games that have more meaning throughout the year and that are better quality.

'The competition needed shaking up as there were too many mismatches. We needed to go down to 12 teams with promotion and relegation. The new system has been voted in and we welcome it now and get on with the job of making sure we are in that top eight each and every year.'

Ian Lenagan

'I think it's definitely progress. I come out of the talks with a positive view'

Marwan Koukash

'Lets make it work'

Pleasing to read such positivity from top high profile SL chairmen.

 

Terry, as per the reports from Martyn, the Superleague clubs were split straight down the middle and half of them wanted a 12 club SL and a door half shut. As per the report Monday the clubs had to agree something and unite whilst the season came on track and TV negotiations started.

 

So I can't swallow a load of PR guff as above and I don't think you should either. But it's up to you if you want to take that opinion.Outside of the agreement to hide their massive differences they can't silence the players or individuals as The Future is League reports above.

 

The first major problem is the game is full of hidden discontent about this, already bubbling to the surface. The second is Mark Aston's remarks....

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I'm interested to see how the new format will work out.  At least we can try it for a couple of years and if it doesn't work out we can switch back to traditional P&R.

 

More important for me though is how the money is shared out.  The fact so little is given to clubs outside Superleague makes it difficult for any system to work properly.  Even though my club are in Superleague I'd be really happy if more of the funding was given to the next level down.  I think it would make the whole sport stronger.

 

Well that's not the evidence. Giving most of the money to an Elite has secured a TV contract for 17 years and increased the paying audience at grounds by thousands. It's professionalised the game to a decent level, and allowed it not to fall too badly behind union.

 

If we worked to your principle and say split the money 37 ways we'd have 37 Championship level clubs, we'd lose the crowds, we'd lose players and lose the TV audience and the contract. You are right the TV money distribution stops the new formulae working as it should see next post...

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That is why the proposed funding to the second tiers top clubs is key. They must be FT, and must run on the max cap (£900k?) that way if a club takes the gamble to save money they will end up in the second tier. I expect 6 full time clubs in the second tier in 2015

 

I'd agree with you, but I fear a £900K second eight squad will be so much weaker than a Elite SL £1.65M squad. The middle eight may work as a competition but breaking the big eight may be nigh on impossible.

 

Here's Mark Aston the legend.......

 

"At least they have made a decision, It remains to be see if it does mean promotion and relegation - I actually don't believe that"

 

If the funding is not right it means a 8 club Suprleague and a two tier championship. Mark Continues:-

 

"It depends on how the money is shared out if one team has double that of another then you would still surmise that the teams getting the most would win"

 

The Swiss model was used by Martyn as a warning, what was not AFAIK reported about this model was whether there was a huge financial gap between the top Swiss football clubs and the rest. If there wasn't then the warning from their experience may be stronger. Anyway....Mark again..

 

"At the moment the part timers  are going to struggle, the gap is too big" It's money that counts not format. "The set up from 2015 does not actually signal the chance for championship clubs to get promoted".

 

As it stands the top 8 clubs can smile about the decision because they will get better fixture lists and may get bigger crowds and cement their top 8 places. The bottom SL clubs are released from financial misery and can stay afloat reducing their spending - but may have to take some hammerings in the first 23 SL rounds, the top Championship clubs currently get nothing out of the format as Mark says.

 

The argument is not about format at all IMVHO it's about, as Padge always says "money".

Edited by The Parksider
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I'd agree with you, but I fear a £900K second eight squad will be so much weaker than a Elite SL £1.65M squad. The middle eight may work as a competition but breaking the big eight may be nigh on impossible.

Here's Mark Aston the legend.......

"At least they have made a decision, It remains to be see if it does mean promotion and relegation - I actually don't believe that"

If the funding is not right it means a 8 club Suprleague and a two tier championship. Mark Continues:-

"It depends on how the money is shared out if one team has double that of another then you would still surmise that the teams getting the most would win"

The Swiss model was used by Martyn as a warning, what was not AFAIK reported about this model was whether there was a huge financial gap between the top Swiss football clubs and the rest. If there wasn't then the warning from their experience may be stronger. Anyway....Mark again..

"At the moment the part timers are going to struggle, the gap is too big" It's money that counts not format. "The set up from 2015 does not actually signal the chance for championship clubs to get promoted".

As it stands the top 8 clubs can smile about the decision because they will get better fixture lists and may get bigger crowds and cement their top 8 places. The bottom SL clubs are released from financial misery and can stay afloat reducing their spending - but may have to take some hammerings in the first 23 SL rounds, the top Championship clubs currently get nothing out of the format as Mark says.

The argument is not about format at all IMVHO it's about, as Padge always says "money".

The Halifax chairman has a different outlook towards the change. He has said

"It’s what we wanted; we believe it provides the game with a platform from which to move forward,” and “You could have a bad year this year and still be able to move forward, but it will be a lot easier to progress and get ready for 2015 if you are successful this season.”

People from the same division having a different out look with regards to the changes. It may be Aston is against it as his club has shown they have been the best for the past couple of years with a very small salary cap. These changes could impact that.

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The Cas chief executive was ecstatic "The whole game will be better, I don't think it will ever change back" he said "There might be doubts now but in five or six years time people will realise it's a brilliant decision"

Brilliant as you say for a poor SL side who needs to reduce their spending, and will probably be very happy staying alive in the middle eight with several derbies against Wakey and Bradford.

Steve is excited about the Championship clubs "Like Featherstone and Sheffield Eagles" who he is likely to welcome to the jungle soon. He also says "this will create more competition".

I fully understand his position on this, for a financially stretched club fed up with their inability to compete in Superleague for so many years now creating a "who cares" attitude at the club, they will now be able to compete a step down.

A you say Gaz a win win for poorer Superleague clubs, however the flip side is how will they go on in the first 23 rounds if they re-adjust their Salary spending down to "A Mil(lion) pounds" as you suggest and become even less competitive in SL against the top eight???

The poorer SL clubs know they can't make the eight parky. They won't be too bothered about becoming less competetive their main aim IMO will just be to avoid the drop and spend within their means. If a champ club tries to sign a sinfield etc the poor SL club could see that as a threat to their top tier status so with them only spending x amount on their cap the extra will help them kill any threat from a champ club too. Like I say parky I think this system suits the poorer SL clubs more than any other clubs.

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I'd agree with you, but I fear a £900K second eight squad will be so much weaker than a Elite SL £1.65M squad. The middle eight may work as a competition but breaking the big eight may be nigh on impossible.

Here's Mark Aston the legend.......

"At least they have made a decision, It remains to be see if it does mean promotion and relegation - I actually don't believe that"

If the funding is not right it means a 8 club Suprleague and a two tier championship. Mark Continues:-

"It depends on how the money is shared out if one team has double that of another then you would still surmise that the teams getting the most would win"

The Swiss model was used by Martyn as a warning, what was not AFAIK reported about this model was whether there was a huge financial gap between the top Swiss football clubs and the rest. If there wasn't then the warning from their experience may be stronger. Anyway....Mark again..

"At the moment the part timers are going to struggle, the gap is too big" It's money that counts not format. "The set up from 2015 does not actually signal the chance for championship clubs to get promoted".

As it stands the top 8 clubs can smile about the decision because they will get better fixture lists and may get bigger crowds and cement their top 8 places. The bottom SL clubs are released from financial misery and can stay afloat reducing their spending - but may have to take some hammerings in the first 23 SL rounds, the top Championship clubs currently get nothing out of the format as Mark says.

The argument is not about format at all IMVHO it's about, as Padge always says "money".

Yes it is about money, but not just what we have but what more we can attract

Currently club A has no guaranteed path to SL, is difficult to market to fans and investors/philanthropists - this new system gives hope to fans and a guarantee of promotion to the latter for a sum under £1m subject to on field performance, that is now a realistic objective imo because what's a million to a wealthy man/woman or a group of such

As a result cash will come into the game the second tier becomes a flowing river and not the stagnant pond it is now

I can't see Fev having a problem finding that sum, Leigh won't and I believe fax also

Aston knows Sheffield are a big fish in a tiny pond and haven't the fan base to go further, they have probably maxed grants and education funding to keep all the overseas at the club so this is as good as it gets playing out of a ploughed field with fans behind a glass screen

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"At the moment the part timers  are going to struggle, the gap is too big" It's money that counts not format. "The set up from 2015 does not actually signal the chance for championship clubs to get promoted".

 

As it stands the top 8 clubs can smile about the decision because they will get better fixture lists and may get bigger crowds and cement their top 8 places. The bottom SL clubs are released from financial misery and can stay afloat reducing their spending - but may have to take some hammerings in the first 23 SL rounds, the top Championship clubs currently get nothing out of the format as Mark says.

 

dont quite follow the logic , currently part timers struggle anyway but the new cash proposals will help 4/5 teams to go full time where as at the moment the cash difference is massive 
how does the the new proposals "not signal the chance for clubs to get promoted" - the chance is quite obviously there , finish in the top four of the championship then finish in the top 3 of the mini league or get 4th/5th and beat a team in a one off and you are there , 

it may seem to suit the top 8 but not all of them voted in favour did they , agreed some of the struggling clubs may see it as a way off stepping down but bradford arent exactly rejoicing at the prospect are they 

and the season after why should they be taking hammerings , after all they will be on the same funding as the other clubs 

sorry but Messrs Sadler and Ashton are talking rubbish

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Is there a potential problem with the existing player contracts?

 

I believe there are, usually, Standard Clauses in there relating to a player being able to move to another Super League club (or even be released by a club) should they not be in Super League/the highest tier.

 

So when teams finish ninth to twelth after Round 23 and drop to Tier 2, will all their players be available for 'free'?

 

The above is not a statement of fact, I was just wondering?!

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Is there a potential problem with the existing player contracts?

I believe there are, usually, Standard Clauses in there relating to a player being able to move to another Super League club (or even be released by a club) should they not be in Super League/the highest tier.

So when teams finish ninth to twelth after Round 23 and drop to Tier 2, will all their players be available for 'free'?

The above is not a statement of fact, I was just wondering?!

The split wouldn't change the funding the club gets for that season so it shouldn't affect the contract. If they don't qualify for SL this may have an impact for the following season.
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My worry is that regular SL fixtures for a club like Wigan against the likes of Castleford, Wakefield (say these clubs yo yo for a couple of seasons) in time may be viewed as games against lower division opposition - the team they put out and the variation in home crowds for those fixtures may also start to reflect this.

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