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The one thing that I think about when I've gone to Manchester is traffic. The M62 can take a large chunk of your time up and can be one of the more dangerous motorways.

When I've been to Hudds it's usually been getting away, especially for an international or potentially well attended game. The traffic lights and access back east aren't synchronised the best.

Maybe both these affect others travelling in, I don't know, but it's an issue for me.

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The one thing that I think about when I've gone to Manchester is traffic. The M62 can take a large chunk of your time up and can be one of the more dangerous motorways.

When I've been to Hudds it's usually been getting away, especially for an international or potentially well attended game. The traffic lights and access back east aren't synchronised the best.

Maybe both these affect others travelling in, I don't know, but it's an issue for me.

I always think the M62 and M60 are like the M25 a joke that was played upon all users under the guise of being a motorway rather than a carpark!

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The M25 is very useful outside the rush hour.

M3, M4 Heathrow etc etc etc. And they spoil the route to France. And I agree it's great between 2 and 4 in the morning! ;)

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To be fair on the transport issues thats why I personally think if wakey were to move from Belle Vue (although I personally prefer the redevelopment of Belle Vue as an option) they should move to a site close to the centre of Wakefield (around the Dewsbury Road area for example).

Its not saying that all fans travel by bus or train to games, but that by having a stadium that is easily accessible by public transport it makes getting to games easier and takes away some congestion from around the ground. If you want the club could even promote public transport to the game as a green initiative.

Either way being near to a train station and having good bus links might not increase crowd numbers, but it will certainly not harm them.

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The M25 is very useful outside the rush hour.

I have memories of leaving Peterborough at 4.30am to arrive at a job near Crawley at 6. Got there at 3pm due to consecutive accidents. One of the few times in my life I have neglected breakfast and went through every sweet in the glove box, fingernails and ended up chewing on the end of a pen for sustenance.

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offering free tickets alone is not marketing anyway.

 

Go on then how do Salford raise their crowds significantly by "Marketing" post Snape in the seventies crowds were 4,500, in the eighties their crowds in the top division fell to 3,500 the nineties saw a few hundred more and when they got in Superleague as a professional outfit the crowds went to 4,500 in the first stint. 4,500 in the second stint.

 

Move to the new ground put an extra 700 on the average. Nowt wrong with the ground.

 

I always thought a good marketing ploy was special offers where you adjust the price to get the floating fans/customers in. After all 10,000 turned up for the last game at the Willows against Catalans so Koukash cleverly offered them the chance to see the same fixture again for nothing.

 

But these 5.000 floaters said no thanks.

 

BOGOF includes giving product away? Is that not "Marketing"?

 

AFAIK they also gave away freebies on other occasions to as many kids as they could to encourage a new generation of fans to take an interest, maybe join a junior side, or get dad to take them to future games?

 

As I set out the culture of RL is sadly dying away around greater Manchester and you can add Oldham and Rochdale's demise in there with Swinton, Broughton and Trafford.

 

People passionate for the game are now using the facilities at the Etihad to try to revive the game though getting the kids playing again, and setting up new clubs, they are trying to rebuild the culture that in other towns and cities still keeps the game strong.

 

So please do set out your alternative "Marketing" ploy, to give an easy boost to the crowds in the short term whilst the amateurs and volunteers work hard to rebuild the game in and around the M60 

Edited by The Parksider

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To be fair on the transport issues thats why I personally think if wakey were to move from Belle Vue (although I personally prefer the redevelopment of Belle Vue as an option) they should move to a site close to the centre of Wakefield (around the Dewsbury Road area for example).

Its not saying that all fans travel by bus or train to games, but that by having a stadium that is easily accessible by public transport it makes getting to games easier and takes away some congestion from around the ground. If you want the club could even promote public transport to the game as a green initiative.

Either way being near to a train station and having good bus links might not increase crowd numbers, but it will certainly not harm them.

 

I agree with this idea in principle. However, as always, a compromise is needed because a lot of people travel to games by car and, if I'm not mistaken, there is precious little car parking near Belle Vue. Last time I went, I used the train from Malton to Leeds and on to Agbrigg, then walked to the stadium. I don't know how that would work on a Friday evening, but Wakefield prefer Sunday afternoons anyway.

 

So, good idea but some attention to car parking is needed as well.


Rethymno Rugby League Appreciation Society

Founder (and, so far, only) member.

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I agree with this idea in principle. However, as always, a compromise is needed because a lot of people travel to games by car and, if I'm not mistaken, there is precious little car parking near Belle Vue. Last time I went, I used the train from Malton to Leeds and on to Agbrigg, then walked to the stadium. I don't know how that would work on a Friday evening, but Wakefield prefer Sunday afternoons anyway.

So, good idea but some attention to car parking is needed as well.

Having gone to Leeds' there game last friday as well as on several other occasions, I know that Doncaster Rd (and so Belle Vue) is a nightmare both for parking and traffic, especially on evening matchdays. Although there are plenty of Buses and the ground is walkable in 20 mins from the City centre.

Contrastingly however, the centre of Wakefield has free parking after 6 in most places and as many will have appreciated has a disproportionately large number of Pubs and Restaurants. Surely Wakey must realise the benefits they can bring to the Centre of Wakefield commercially if the were to move and build this into their matchday package?

The crowd at Wakefield for the game against Leeds was low yes and tbh I think a lot of that was due to the abysmal weather and the fact that only 50% of the stadium is covered. Having a good ground in a good location is therefore highly important.

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Potentially, Salford (assuming we stay in Super League) will have a potential 20 games at the AJ Bell next year (1 friendly, 11 regular season home games, 4 super eight and one semi-final, 3 challenge cup). Why not have a season ticket which covers all of these games and market it as the '40:20' whereby you're paying £40 to watch a potential 20 fixtures. Surely this would appeal to all supporters who might just be casual attenders to the AJB, but if you could sell 10,000 of these, an overall loss in gate revenue over the season would surely be more than compensated by sales of merchandise and other matchday products, as well as an improvement on the pitch with the heightened support.

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Potentially, Salford (assuming we stay in Super League) will have a potential 20 games at the AJ Bell next year (1 friendly, 11 regular season home games, 4 super eight and one semi-final, 3 challenge cup). Why not have a season ticket which covers all of these games and market it as the '40:20' whereby you're paying £40 to watch a potential 20 fixtures. Surely this would appeal to all supporters who might just be casual attenders to the AJB, but if you could sell 10,000 of these, an overall loss in gate revenue over the season would surely be more than compensated by sales of merchandise and other matchday products, as well as an improvement on the pitch with the heightened support.

This needs to be sustainable, and your plan just isn't.

 

current 15 games with an average of 4k at £10 per person average gives £600k income, versus your £400k income. My numbers also allows for a few more games.

 

You would lose £200k, but you are right that the ancillary sales could be higher. 

 

If 10k people spend £50 in the shop (a price of a shirt) then the income may be cancelled out, but not profit - I would suggest there is more profit in ticket sales than merchandise.

 

Of course there are knock on benefits in your plan, but tbh Rugby League is probably priced too cheaply as it is without giving tickets away for £2 per game.

 

There are loads of people out there prepared to spend decent amounts of money on entertainment, they are doing it all the time. We need to make going to the Rugby League at the AJ Bell an exciting event to go to.

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It would have been London's second highest crowd in their last Super League season if that many had turned up. They got 1,002 against Catalans. Paris got 500 against Sheffield for the lowest ever crowd

 

Played on a Wednesday night if memory serves me right


Sex and Money are like Oxygen

They're not important until you're not getting enough.

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People jumping on the bandwagon, just like that string about championship teams the week all the struggling teams happened to be at home.

Salford haven't had healthy crowds for decades. Marwan's made em look silly recently, they have got nothing to play for (as they wouldn't in any league structure after that rightful deduction). Given how hard the ground is for home fans, and Huddersfields form and Andersons sackin, unsurprising the crowd was low. Get the ram playing well, Marwan to keep quiet, and that bridge opened across from the Trafford Centre, and the crowds will be healthier

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Go on then how do Salford raise their crowds significantly by "Marketing"

How would I know? Its not my job but your assertion that marketing has no bearing in business today is pretty bizzare.

I know that a heart bypass operation is essential for some people but it doesn't mean I'm going to carry one out. Salford et al need an equivalent guru to raise their profile and crowds. Otherwise they won't be around

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How would I know? Its not my job but your assertion that marketing has no bearing in business today is pretty bizzare.

I know that a heart bypass operation is essential for some people but it doesn't mean I'm going to carry one out. Salford et al need an equivalent guru to raise their profile and crowds. Otherwise they won't be around

"So straight 'way the brave little feller

Not showing a morsel of fear

Took 'is stick with the'orse's 'ead 'andle

And pushed it in Wallace's ear" ;)

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How would I know? Its not my job but your assertion that marketing has no bearing in business today is pretty bizzare.

I know that a heart bypass operation is essential for some people but it doesn't mean I'm going to carry one out. Salford et al need an equivalent guru to raise their profile and crowds. Otherwise they won't be around

Clearly, marketing is huge.  

 

If Parksider is more referring to advertising and special offers, then I am inclined to agree.  There are plenty of sports teams who do not understand that what people are giving up as well as money is time and there are plenty of way in which people can see themselves enjoying themselves with a few free hours.  Free tickets are of limited use and bill boards etc are of very limited use.

 

Instead, it does have to be some way in which the club seems important enough to them that is is worth spending a few hours on as well as money.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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How would I know? Its not my job but your assertion that marketing has no bearing in business today is pretty bizzare.

I know that a heart bypass operation is essential for some people but it doesn't mean I'm going to carry one out. Salford et al need an equivalent guru to raise their profile and crowds. Otherwise they won't be around

If you need a bypass you probably ed up hard. 

Don't up hard.

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Potentially, Salford (assuming we stay in Super League) will have a potential 20 games at the AJ Bell next year (1 friendly, 11 regular season home games, 4 super eight and one semi-final, 3 challenge cup). Why not have a season ticket which covers all of these games and market it as the '40:20' whereby you're paying £40 to watch a potential 20 fixtures. Surely this would appeal to all supporters who might just be casual attenders to the AJB, but if you could sell 10,000 of these, an overall loss in gate revenue over the season would surely be more than compensated by sales of merchandise and other matchday products, as well as an improvement on the pitch with the heightened support.

This is basically another take on the pledge that the Bradford Bulls offered in 2011/2012.

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How would I know? Its not my job but your assertion that marketing has no bearing in business today is pretty bizzare.

 

If you have decided it's pretty bizarre, then you must know why you said this?

 

It's probably because you have grossly twisted the point.

 

Nobody and certainly not me has ever said marketing has no bearing in business today

 

To use the usual quote "you made that up" :tongue:

 

Clearly, marketing is huge.  

 

If Parksider is more referring to advertising and special offers, then I am inclined to agree.  There are plenty of sports teams who do not understand that what people are giving up as well as money is time and there are plenty of way in which people can see themselves enjoying themselves with a few free hours.  Free tickets are of limited use and bill boards etc are of very limited use.

 

Instead, it does have to be some way in which the club seems important enough to them that is is worth spending a few hours on as well as money.

 

Thank you Bob!!

 

There are 22 appointees who are beavering away at Headingley to keep existing fans and get new fans and business into the club in the various commercial, marketing, corporates and business development departments.

 

Let's go back to the point made that Leeds fail because ultimately they don't get 20,000 crowds as an average and ultimately don't then go on to "sell out".

 

I trust Mr. Hetherington and his team to try all the various ways of marketing the club to keep and increase the fan base. The counter argument is that they are a big failure and are not adopting a series of marketing strategies that we can all come up with on here and would work if only they weren't so useless and actually tried them.

 

So useless that they have lost 1,200 fans this last 10 years.

 

My take is that they are very good marketeers, but they can't do much about their local derby being removed from them, they can't do much about the game losing stars to Australia, they can't do much about their own team failing badly nowadays in the WCC the big crowds used to follow.

 

They can do their best in terms of marketing but there is a limit and I just think they do their best up to the limits and there is no evidence they do not, certainly not the arbritary targets that started the debate.

 

There's a certain naivety that marketing to get more fans is the b'all and end all, but Leeds also run a very good marketing team getting the corporates in, and a good commercial marketing team getting the advertisers in.

 

22 of them in all, I'm sure if there are other things they could do that were effective they'd employ person 23. They don't and so i take the view Hetherington probably has it right and 20,000 crowds is a daft figure and getting there by logo's, free tickets and personal calls from Paul Caddick isn't really on.

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People jumping on the bandwagon, just like that string about championship teams the week all the struggling teams happened to be at home.

Salford haven't had healthy crowds for decades. Marwan's made em look silly recently, they have got nothing to play for (as they wouldn't in any league structure after that rightful deduction). Given how hard the ground is for home fans, and Huddersfields form and Andersons sackin, unsurprising the crowd was low. Get the team playing well, Marwan to keep quiet, and that bridge opened across from the Trafford Centre, and the crowds will be healthier

 

Back on topic, good post recognising what's needed to get the fans they do have to keep on coming  

 

He`s tied in via the CVA for 15 + years 

 

That's great to know Mr. Carpet.

 

How long is Mr. Green going to be around Mick??

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Case study on Sale Sharks.

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-sale-sharks-increased-revenue-from-crowd-more-than-jeremy-butler?articleId=7791644136230205559

 

We shouldn't just assume that clubs are doing everything they can at the moment. If they are, then we have reached a peak (that is lower than our true peak) - and that would be depressing.

 

Other than Catalan, is there a single club in UK RL that is delivering it's peak crowds at the moment?

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Case study on Sale Sharks.

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-sale-sharks-increased-revenue-from-crowd-more-than-jeremy-butler?articleId=7791644136230205559

 

We shouldn't just assume that clubs are doing everything they can at the moment. If they are, then we have reached a peak (that is lower than our true peak) - and that would be depressing.

 

Other than Catalan, is there a single club in UK RL that is delivering it's peak crowds at the moment?

Interesting reading. Maybe RL Clubs, if they already haven't should read this. The empowerment of ticket selling companies, something you alluded to previously, is a must for me.

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Interesting reading. Maybe RL Clubs, if they already haven't should read this. The empowerment of ticket selling companies, something you alluded to previously, is a must for me.

Things like this are telling, and probably pretty common:

 

We had been guilty of sending out a weekly newsletter to all of our sign ups containing one sales message. This led to season ticket holders and match ticket purchasers being asked to buy tickets for a game they were already attending

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