New Grounds.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

11 hours ago, AB Knight said:

In 1997 at a Castleford match I was handed a leaflet outlining proposals to build a new ground in Whitwood. I stil have the damn thing somewhere. We are no further along, even though my fellow Cas fans get excited every time they see a construction worker walking round Glasshoughton wearing a hi vis vest and a hat hard on

The plans for a new stadium are just that - plans. It's all quiet on that front, it doesn't matter how many planning applications are passed or amendments made to the current junction, very little has progressed, everything has gone quiet and even the company rep who was updating us on the Cas forum on the new stadium hasn't said anything since 2016 I believe.

I've said it many times before, I think both clubs should sit down together and discuss a new joint stadium. I know we can't magic a new ground up out of nowhere, neither club is flash with cash, but surely with the full support of the council we'd be in a better place to see some progress. We are talking about 2 clubs, one averaging 5k and the other 8k (ish), with one club owning their current ground which could be used as part of any deal. You see non league football clubs in the 6th and 7th tiers of the football pyramid managing to build new stadiums, even though their crowds and budgets must be a fraction of Super League clubs

For those who think the clubs wouldn't survive if they moved out of their current areas, I believe a new stadium near the new police headquarters in Normanton would suit both clubs.

From The Jungle to the proposed new stadium, it's 2.1 miles. From Belle Vue to the proposed new Wakefield stadium near the M1, it's 5.5 miles. If a new ground could somehow be built in Normanton, it would be 4.0 miles (a mere extra 1.9miles) from the Jungle, and 5.0 miles from Belle Vue (half a mile less than the distance to the proposed new ground).

I don't think either club will go down that route though. But nor do I think either stadium will be built anytime soon.

Cas first announced that they were going to build a new ground in Glasshoughton while I was still at school in the mid 70s. Over 40 years and still waiting....so what's another 3 or 4 (if Axiom's promo video is to be believed)?

[Wholly Trinity]

On 5/9/2018 at 10:07 PM, hunsletgreenandgold said:

I'll accept you're a lot closer to this than I've been - just seems crazy that for all these 'agreements' that are seemingly in place, nothing is actually happening and indeed not likely to, at least for one of the clubs. 

In your opinion, who's to blame for where this mess currently stands? ( I assume you're better placed to talk about the Wakey situation than Cas) - is it the Club, developers, council? I'm sure there's elements from all three and possibly others but the current stalemate must be getting pushed by one side particularly?

Where to start?

Short version

A developer was given permission to build on greenbelt land in possibly the best location in the north of England for a distribution centre, on an underused junction of the M62, one junction from the M1. This was only granted, after a public inquiry and despite objections from local residents, Leeds City Council and Castleford Tigers!, because of the special circumstances of the need for community sports facilities and a 12k stadium suitable for SL. (This was when franchising was still around and they were the minimum standards). The sports facilities were supported by a 15000 signature petition. The stadium and other sports facilities were to owned and run by a community trust, set up by the council, and Trinity would be the anchor tenants. As community facilites, they would be available for use by anyone in the district (even Cas Tigers!). The club would pay peppercorn rent to the trust, but be responsible for insurance and maintenance.

The developer saw the opportunity to delay/avoid its responsibilities in the hope that the club would disappear and the need for a stadium would be removed and they could add an extra £10M to their profits.The SoS/Council were perhaps a little naive (with hindsight) by not making the s.106 more watertight and time bound. The agreement was that the stadium should be built when no more than 60 000 sq.m. of the site was built out.

More detail

Everything was going well, the road works were done and a huge cold storage was planned and built (now 2 buildings). It then transpired that these would not count towards the trigger point as they were done on a separate application because they were taller than the original planning allowed. The only person from the Community Trust who knew this to be the case was the then chairman who, for reasons only known to himself, didn't tell anyone else and no objections were made to this planning. WMDC said they'd taken legal advice on this loophole and there was nothing they could do. This legal advice was then shown to be non-existent following a freedom of information request.

The ground was owned by the Bank of Ireland after a land deal between the then owner and Sainsbury went pear-shaped at the start of the credit crunch, which led to the club going into administration. The next owner also took the club to the brink of a second administration within a couple of years due to very poor financial control. The current owners picked up the club and worked miracles to restore financial stability. The ground then came up for sale and the club were looking to buy it, but they were told by the council not to bid because the developer was going to buy it and they didn't want to increase the price. It turned out the developer didn't put in a bid and a third party got the ground and surrounding land for a bargain. (more naivety?).

The trust & club looked into taking legal action against the council for not enforcing the s.106. This was seemingly dropped when a new proposal was put forward involving the new owner and the current Belle Vue site.

The council asked for detailed heads of terms from the developer on how they were going to build the sports facilities. This turned out to be an unworkable, back of a fag packet plan, which was quickly rejected. The council promised to get tough with the developer and there were also suggestions that they would facilitate funding from capital expenditure to allow the development to start (a bit like the deal Leeds have for Headingley). The club offered to cover all interest payments up to the point when funding was made available from the original developer.

The new proposal was to redevelop the current stadium, rather than build on the planned site at Newmarket. It seemed like a great deal for the developer as it would be a smaller/cheaper stadium (10k) and would make more land available at the other site, but beggars can't be choosers and time was running out. Then it transpires that the council decided they would no longer work with the Community Trust they set up and wanted to work with a new trust which was to be set up by the previous chairman (remeber him?) and despite previously stating the opposite.

More pretty plans were drawn up by the new owner and it seemed just a matter of time until building began. Then it went quiet again. A fresh meeting was held (yesterday?) and now there are tentative noises about 'it's progressing, but it's complicated with many parties involved'.

The planning permission for the original Newmarket site reached the 5 year stage and renewed planning was put in. This time the trust was on the ball and made a coordinated objection based on the lack of progress on the s.106. The deadline for this passed some time ago, but was extended and we are still awaiting the outcome.

So, who knows what will happen or when.

It's a long and sorry tale for both clubs trying to get a new stadium for around 40 years now.

Ironically, even though the stadium at Cas is perceived to be more likely and imminent, it's actually in the same position the Newmarket site was 5 years ago, just waiting for a few more clients to sign up and then the building will start.

So, in answer to you question, "who is to blame?", take your pick: Developer/council/SoS/previous owners/previous trust chaiman/new land owner/the club... or any combination of them.

[AB Knight]

17 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I think the real problem with a joint new ground is that unless its in one of the two places (or 3 if we include Fev) it will be stuck out by itself. BV and Wheldon Road are suburban grounds with a good amount of stuff nearby already (pubs, eateries etc.) as well as of course the town centres themselves, which makes a large walk-up crowd possible and improves accessibility from public transport etc. Headingley is very similar and its also one of the reasons Newmarket would have been terrible. Unless its something on the scale of the Etihad complex in Manchester, a joint stadium could become a lame duck like Salford's ground. 

The location for Castleford's new ground is ideal, as ever it just needs building - either that or just rebuild Wheldon road bit by bit. For me, Wakefield either need to rebuild Belle Vue as per the latest plans, or look at other ventures with say either Wakefield Hockey club at college grove, Ossett United or even Sandal RU.

 

To the previous reply, yes I vaguely recall some Belle Vue redevelopment plans, but after a while they all merge into one in my head!

I don't think Castleford centre has that much going for it - the Glassblower perhaps plus a couple of run of the mill pubs and a handful of real ale pubs. The town centre is more or less shut on matchday with them being on Sunday. But I do see your point, I'm sure if a ground were to be built in Normanton the local pubs and clubs would benefit but I can't see it happening anyway.

I was at Featherstone for the York-Swinton match, its a fantastic setup there and all done without SL funding. Does make me wonder what could've been achieved if all the Castleford supporters fundraised/crowdfunded and gradually did up Wheldon Road themselves. Then again its not every week a couple of relatively modern stands become available from another sports club. Id still like to know how exactly they went about bring those Scarborough stands over.

I used to live next door to College Grove when Wakefield FC played there, it was a compact but tidy ground, I think therein was the problem - no room to develop. I remember FC United, and I think Chester City or Halifax Town visited too and the area was jammed, those were crowds of probably 2k so there's no way you could have SL games there.

But going back to my original post, just how do football heavyweights like Telford and Flyde manage brand new shiny stadiums when surely their income is nowhere near that of Super League clubs?

Anyway good to see Yorks new ground progressing.

[AB Knight]

7 hours ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

Cas first announced that they were going to build a new ground in Glasshoughton while I was still at school in the mid 70s. Over 40 years and still waiting....so what's another 3 or 4 (if Axiom's promo video is to be believed)?

3 or 4 years or decades 

[fevtom]

41 minutes ago, AB Knight said:

To the previous reply, yes I vaguely recall some Belle Vue redevelopment plans, but after a while they all merge into one in my head!

I don't think Castleford centre has that much going for it - the Glassblower perhaps plus a couple of run of the mill pubs and a handful of real ale pubs. The town centre is more or less shut on matchday with them being on Sunday. But I do see your point, I'm sure if a ground were to be built in Normanton the local pubs and clubs would benefit but I can't see it happening anyway.

I was at Featherstone for the York-Swinton match, its a fantastic setup there and all done without SL funding. Does make

I used to live next door to College Grove when Wakefield FC played there, it was a compact but tidy ground, I think therein was the problem - no room to develop. I remember FC United, and I think Chester City or Halifax Town visited too and the area was jammed, those were crowds of probably 2k so there's no way you could have SL games there.

 

I used to go watch Wakefield FC at college grove all the time. It seemed like moving to Belle Vue killed them off. Wakefield’s problem seems to go wider than the rugby, it’s a big city and they have loads of sports teams but they’re all based out of different surrounding towns meaning they can’t share facilities without breaking ties with their local community.

[fevtom]

Just now, fevtom said:

I used to go watch Wakefield FC at college grove all the time. It seemed like moving to Belle Vue killed them off. Wakefield’s problem seems to go wider than the rugby, it’s a big city and they have loads of sports teams but they’re all based out of different surrounding towns meaning they can’t share facilities without breaking ties with their local community.

 

[Wholly Trinity]

21 minutes ago, fevtom said:

I used to go watch Wakefield FC at college grove all the time. It seemed like moving to Belle Vue killed them off. Wakefield’s problem seems to go wider than the rugby, it’s a big city and they have loads of sports teams but they’re all based out of different surrounding towns meaning they can’t share facilities without breaking ties with their local community.

Wakefield is a small city (76 000) and only has one professional sports club (Wakefield Trinity)

[fevtom]

47 minutes ago, Wholly Trinity said:

Wakefield is a small city (76 000) and only has one professional sports club (Wakefield Trinity)

I suppose it depends what definition of Wakefield you use, my council tax certainly goes to Wakefield council although in fairness, they don't seem to do anything round here!

Just checked wikipedia and the 76,000 figure doesn't even include areas like Outwood, which is pretty central. 

[PREPOSTEROUS]

Rough guessimate Wakefield will likely have a population of 100k including surrunding villages/suburbs who would still associate themselves with the city (ie not including anything east of Normanton).  

[fieldofclothofgold]

Ive  looked on Wikipedia and the 2011 census Wakefield 99,251 , but like you said its the outlying villages that makes it up 

[Leyther_Matt]

On 11/05/2018 at 6:02 AM, AB Knight said:

To the previous reply, yes I vaguely recall some Belle Vue redevelopment plans, but after a while they all merge into one in my head!

I don't think Castleford centre has that much going for it - the Glassblower perhaps plus a couple of run of the mill pubs and a handful of real ale pubs. The town centre is more or less shut on matchday with them being on Sunday. But I do see your point, I'm sure if a ground were to be built in Normanton the local pubs and clubs would benefit but I can't see it happening anyway.

I was at Featherstone for the York-Swinton match, its a fantastic setup there and all done without SL funding. Does make me wonder what could've been achieved if all the Castleford supporters fundraised/crowdfunded and gradually did up Wheldon Road themselves. Then again its not every week a couple of relatively modern stands become available from another sports club. Id still like to know how exactly they went about bring those Scarborough stands over.

I used to live next door to College Grove when Wakefield FC played there, it was a compact but tidy ground, I think therein was the problem - no room to develop. I remember FC United, and I think Chester City or Halifax Town visited too and the area was jammed, those were crowds of probably 2k so there's no way you could have SL games there.

But going back to my original post, just how do football heavyweights like Telford and Flyde manage brand new shiny stadiums when surely their income is nowhere near that of Super League clubs?

Anyway good to see Yorks new ground progressing.

Telford probably aren’t a great example as the club went bust largely thanks to the cost of the rebuild and had to reform as AFC Telford. Fylde’s new gaff is thanks to a generous benefactor and similarly Salford’s rebuild (a former home of Swinton) was thanks to the cash of the Class of ‘92. 

[Stirlin]

How the new York stad will look when finished , the John Lewis , Next and M&S are all up and running as are the eaterys to the left. Behind that lot is Monks Cross shopping centre with all the usual suspects so if your Mrs/Mr is not into RL they can shop while you watch the game.

[fieldofclothofgold]

I love York as most people do .I hope this new stadium is within easy reach of the city 

[DEANO]

2 hours ago, fieldofclothofgold said:

I love York as most people do .I hope this new stadium is within easy reach of the city 

About an hours walk from city centre. 15 mins to 2 hrs by car depending on traffic ?

[jpmc]

1 hour ago, DEANO said:

About an hours walk from city centre. 15 mins to 2 hrs by car depending on traffic ?

Yes but how close is the stadium to a train station

[Gav Wilson]

1 hour ago, DEANO said:

About an hours walk from city centre. 15 mins to 2 hrs by car depending on traffic ?

Give over Deano. Huntington is nowhere near that bad.

[Gav Wilson]

14 minutes ago, jpmc said:

Yes but how close is the stadium to a train station

About 2.5 miles mate. There will be a shuttle bus service to the park & ride and back on matchdays. 

[DoubleD]

6 hours ago, Stirlin said:

How the new York stad will look when finished , the John Lewis , Next and M&S are all up and running as are the eaterys to the left. Behind that lot is Monks Cross shopping centre with all the usual suspects so if your Mrs/Mr is not into RL they can shop while you watch the game.

Any bars?

[cookey]

With John Lewis and Marks and Spencer as tenants,access will be first class.As usual,rl fans desperately trying to find a negative,for the sport they claim to support.

[AB Knight]

I don't think the location of the York stadium will be that much of an issue. Yes, people will struggle to walk there from the city centre so that might knock a few off the gate, but likewise at the current ground at a push I reckon there are only 50 free spaces on streets within the area, that surely discourages some fans from attending at the moment.

Hopefully the club, York council and local businesses can work together and have shuttle buses linked up with some of the 6 park and ride sites dotted around the city ( (1 site is adjacent to the new stadium)  - we have the largest park and ride scheme in the UK, buses running every 10mins.

There are all kinds of possibilites, at the moment season tickets at the Knights are £140. Let's assume for the 2020 season York are in the new stadium and in the Championship (fingers crossed!). There could be a scheme as follows:

1. Season ticket £200. Gives you 25% discount on park and ride travel.

2. Season ticket + travel £230. Allows you free travel on the park and ride travel on a matchday.

3. Season ticket+travel+attractions £300. Free park and ride plus half price entry to local attractions on matchday (York Dungeon, Minster, Jorvik etc).

Likewise similar offers could be offered on an individual matchday ticket to make it attractive to away fans.

Just a few ideas, the Knights have worked wonders with the promoting and marketing so I'm sure they'll be on it. Exciting times!

 

[Bulliac]

50 minutes ago, AB Knight said:

I don't think the location of the York stadium will be that much of an issue. Yes, people will struggle to walk there from the city centre so that might knock a few off the gate, but likewise at the current ground at a push I reckon there are only 50 free spaces on streets within the area, that surely discourages some fans from attending at the moment.

Hopefully the club, York council and local businesses can work together and have shuttle buses linked up with some of the 6 park and ride sites dotted around the city ( (1 site is adjacent to the new stadium)  - we have the largest park and ride scheme in the UK, buses running every 10mins.

There are all kinds of possibilites, at the moment season tickets at the Knights are £140. Let's assume for the 2020 season York are in the new stadium and in the Championship (fingers crossed!). There could be a scheme as follows:

1. Season ticket £200. Gives you 25% discount on park and ride travel.

2. Season ticket + travel £230. Allows you free travel on the park and ride travel on a matchday.

3. Season ticket+travel+attractions £300. Free park and ride plus half price entry to local attractions on matchday (York Dungeon, Minster, Jorvik etc).

Likewise similar offers could be offered on an individual matchday ticket to make it attractive to away fans.

Just a few ideas, the Knights have worked wonders with the promoting and marketing so I'm sure they'll be on it. Exciting times!

 

Being away from the centre may actually increase gates.

My recollection from our visit to Bootham Crescent was that parking was a nightmare, as was our coach journey to the ground, I honestly don't know how our driver got round some of those narrow bends on the way in and out . Ancient narrow streets and a 'touristy' centre don't really make ideal partners for a sports ground.

[fevtom]

I quite liked the location of Bootham Crescent (i've only attended for the football), but this is mainly because I like getting the train and having a few drinks before/after whatever match i'm going to see, especially if it's somehwere I don't visit often. I would imagine easier road access and more parking would be beneficial to the majority of supporters though and is certainly needed if York have ambitions of seriously increasing their gates.

[AB Knight]

Yes, plus the new ground is situated near the A1237 ring road - if they ever make that into 2 lanes then access direct from the A64 will be easy.

I think Bootham Crescent is one of the most difficult grounds to get parked at for RL, and I've been to most grounds. There are of course pay and display car parks not too far away (these are listed on the Knights website) but a lot of away supporters assume you can just turn up 15mins before kick off and find a spot. As Bulliac says, that's really not the case.

Roll on the Community Stadium in 2019!

[Stirlin]

On 15/05/2018 at 9:25 PM, DoubleD said:

Any bars?

There will be a 'Fanzone' DD and would assume this will include watering holes.

[Mattrhino]

On 10/05/2018 at 11:56 AM, Tommygilf said:

I think the real problem with a joint new ground is that unless its in one of the two places (or 3 if we include Fev) it will be stuck out by itself. BV and Wheldon Road are suburban grounds with a good amount of stuff nearby already (pubs, eateries etc.) as well as of course the town centres themselves, which makes a large walk-up crowd possible and improves accessibility from public transport etc. Headingley is very similar and its also one of the reasons Newmarket would have been terrible. Unless its something on the scale of the Etihad complex in Manchester, a joint stadium could become a lame duck like Salford's ground. 

The location for Castleford's new ground is ideal, as ever it just needs building - either that or just rebuild Wheldon road bit by bit. For me, Wakefield either need to rebuild Belle Vue as per the latest plans, or look at other ventures with say either Wakefield Hockey club at college grove, Ossett United or even Sandal RU.

 

A joint stadium in glasshouton would be next to xscape with much more variety of pubs and eateries than around the current stadiums.