"Jihadi Bride" story

[Niels]

2 hours ago, ckn said:

But she's one of *them*.  And she wears that stuff.  That must count for something, mustn't it?

Until I see a police or non-politician government source say what other crimes she's committed, or alleged to have commited, her sole crime is joining ISIS, a proscribed criminal organisation, as a child.

She is one of ours though. That's why there is the debate.

Clothes are irrelevant. At immigration tribunals the appellants don't get extra points for wearing western dress ☺

 

 

[Bob8]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

I believe there are thousands on these 'watch-lists' - what do you suggest doing with them all?

This directly relates to internment. The upside is that it was good for the feelings of some people who really wanted and really good for the IRA. I do not think that is worth it, but others on this thread disagree. 

[Griff9of13]

6 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

This directly relates to internment. The upside is that it was good for the feelings of some people who really wanted and really good for the IRA. I do not think that is worth it, but others on this thread disagree. 

The IRA themselves always said that internment was the best recruiting sergeant they ever had.

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

OK I will play your game, yes.

Excellent.

The BBC reported the figure of people on what might be termed a watch-list as "more than 20,000". And here's the Guardian saying that in 2018 more white people than non whites were arrested for terrorism offences: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/13/white-people-make-up-largest-proportion-of-terror-arrests-figures-show.

Now, granted, that's clearly a very small percentage of the overall sympathiser situation. The IRA was never very large but it had millions of people who thought that a united Ireland was a valid concern. So we have to assume the same now. The EDL and its splinters aren't big but there are thousands of people cheering on Tommy Robinson; similarly, very few people want to detonate themselves for jihad but there will be a lot more who'd welcome the caliphate.

We're probably into the several hundred thousand.

So, in any practical sense, the idea that we can overcome a complex problem by just pushing people out of the country is ... fanciful. And that's before you get to large groups of now angry jihadis and gammons now being able to do what they want beyond the reach of any law ...

So, what would I do?

I'd massively increase investment in deprived communities across the country. It's not always the case but poverty and desperation are strongly linked to extremist positions. I'd also increase social, recreational and education provision. At the same time, I'd increase resources for Prevent. (I'd also remove religious entities from being able to run state schools.)

I'd also increase the on-the-beat police presence and restore community policing levels.

And stay in the EU.

[gingerjon]

 

[Niels]

13 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

 

Notice the language and propaganda.

The one in favour of her return is quoted as being eloquent and knowledgeable about the subject. The one against "The referee" reponds in cliches 

Ironic really as Pochettino " the character"  in favour of of her return is the one who is getting agitated and later admits he has gone too far. 

[gingerjon]

Just now, Niels said:

Notice the language and propaganda.

Nah.

It was just moderately amusing.

[Niels]

35 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Nah.

It was just moderately amusing.

I saw it again on Match of the day 2.

I think it was a goal kick as the ball hit the Burnley player's legs last ☺

[tonyXIII]

8 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

It is a situation I believe that has been allowed to escalate,  I remember as a kid we all respected policemen and the authourity they carried, soft, pusstfoot namby pamby ways started to eradicate that respect to the couldn't care less attitude many have today.

It's a bit late and a bit off-topic, but what began to wear down my respect for the police were the actions of, among others, the Flying Squad and the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad, not the actions of some "namby-pambies".

I still by-and-large respect the police, who do a very difficult job and, largely, do it honestly and well with minimal resources. But, by God, my faith was sorely tested by those cowboys.

 

[Griff9of13]

1 hour ago, tonyXIII said:

It's a bit late and a bit off-topic, but what began to wear down my respect for the police were the actions of, among others, the Flying Squad and the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad, not the actions of some "namby-pambies".

I still by-and-large respect the police, who do a very difficult job and, largely, do it honestly and well with minimal resources. But, by God, my faith was sorely tested by those cowboys.

 

And let's not forget that wonderful force, South Yorkshire Police.

[getdownmonkeyman]

Reading through this thread, with all its differing opinions makes you realise this is quite the complex situation. 

Who would have thought this to be the case.

[Mister Ting]

1 minute ago, getdownmonkeyman said:

Reading through this thread, with all its differing opinions makes you realise this is quite the complex situation. 

Who would have thought this to be the case.

Agreed. Now I'm slightly more up to speed, my natural grunt has slightly abated. I expect to be close to falsetto by the end of this week.

[Kayakman]

10 hours ago, Griff9of13 said:

The IRA themselves always said that internment was the best recruiting sergeant they ever had.

Bobby Sands brought in more recruits and garnered more international sympathy than many can understand; even to this very day.

[Kayakman]

12 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

It is a situation I believe that has been allowed to escalate,  I remember as a kid we all respected policemen and the authourity they carried, soft, pusstfoot namby pamby ways started to eradicate that respect to the couldn't care less attitude many have today.

Or, as Cicero eloquently stated so often, it could just be the realities of becoming older and wiser?

Ahhh.....the innocence of youth when everything seemed so simple and pure.

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Or, as Cicero eloquently stated so often, it could just be the realities of becoming older and wiser?

Ahhh.....the innocence of youth when everything seemed so simple and pure.

I would go along with that train of thought if you were in a darkened room sitting back and contemplating all that has gone before and reliving those experiences you have encountered on life's journey. 

Then when you step out into the real world things take on a very different perspective, granted there are those parts which are bright shiney and clean and aesthetically pleasing, but I find when we start to scratch away at the surface the undertone is somewhat different as to be the way things once were, it is such a complex issue and one which is most probably personal to the individual. Some things are better today but not everything, I could go into thousands of examples in which I would choose the old values everytime but there is no point in doing so, I am in my 6th decade on this planet and that will do me just fine, I really feel for those in their 1st, 2nd and 3rd decades and wondering what will come for them society wise, technology will no doubt abound but I cannot even begin to think how attitudes will develop, in my opinion (and yes it is personal) it is on a slippery slope and the incline is getting steeper and is gathering speed of bad values much more quickly. Not everthing was good back then, society had some very bad ways and indeed individuals but not in the proportions we have today which seems to be gathering pace year on year.

In a nutshell, I am much happier being at this position in my lifetime than being born much later and wondering what it be like living in those times to come, alas I will never know the answers.

[Kayakman]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I would go along with that train of thought if you were in a darkened room sitting back and contemplating all that has gone before and reliving those experiences you have encountered on life's journey. 

Then when you step out into the real world things take on a very different perspective, granted there are those parts which are bright shiney and clean and aesthetically pleasing, but I find when we start to scratch away at the surface the undertone is somewhat different as to be the way things once were, it is such a complex issue and one which is most probably personal to the individual. Some things are better today but not everything, I could go into thousands of examples in which I would choose the old values everytime but there is no point in doing so, I am in my 6th decade on this planet and that will do me just fine, I really feel for those in their 1st, 2nd and 3rd decades and wondering what will come for them society wise, technology will no doubt abound but I cannot even begin to think how attitudes will develop, in my opinion (and yes it is personal) it is on a slippery slope and the incline is getting steeper and is gathering speed of bad values much more quickly. Not everthing was good back then, society had some very bad ways and indeed individuals but not in the proportions we have today which seems to be gathering pace year on year.

In a nutshell, I am much happier being at this position in my lifetime than being born much later and wondering what it be like living in those times to come, alas I will never know the answers.

Never say never Harry!  The truth is out there...you just have to focus my friend....FOCUS.

[gingerjon]

Normal ...

 

[Dave T]

36 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Normal ...

 

This is the issue with mob mentality. People make stupid decisions and the worst human traits come out.

I am still interested in what actual crime she has committed and the normal punishment for that crime in the UK.

[JohnM]

14 minutes ago, Dave T said:

This is the issue with mob mentality. People make stupid decisions and the worst human traits come out.

I am still interested in what actual crime she has committed and the normal punishment for that crime in the UK.

I'd like to set your mind at rest. For as long as I can remember, the Home Office has hardly ever done what it has said it would do.

[tonyXIII]

John. Hi! I just tried to send you a 'welcome back' message but the system says you can't receive messages. Is your inbox full? Whatever, welcome back and I hope you are well.

[Bob8]

25 minutes ago, tonyXIII said:

John. Hi! I just tried to send you a 'welcome back' message but the system says you can't receive messages. Is your inbox full? Whatever, welcome back and I hope you are well.

He is a popular man.

Glad to see he is a well one too!
Welcome back!

[kiyan]

Standard British legal precedent is that people ( even British Citizens) should be tried and punished  in the country they ( allegedly) committed crimes.  Surely this case should be tried in Syria and if she is found guilty of trying to over throw the government, she should face whatever sentence they have in their penal code.

eg If a 19 years old goes to US, gets drunk and recklessly causes a death by encouraging other 19 year olds to drink? - now in the UK drinking at 19 is not illegal so they have committed no crime here!  Should we demand they are sent back here ( an have no punishment) or would we expect that they should obey  the laws in the country they were in and if they didn't, they should face justice there?

What is the difference here?  She may well not have broken any current UK laws, but she certainly has broken plenty in the country she decided to go to!  I don't think her citizenship should be revoked but she should stand trail there!  ( which is exactly what I think should happen to ANY British Citizen who goes to a country where alcohol/homosexuality/drugs/etc are illegal and they break the law there!) You know the consequences, if you are not prepared to accept them, then do not go there/do it!

[JohnM]

7 hours ago, tonyXIII said:

John. Hi! I just tried to send you a 'welcome back' message but the system says you can't receive messages. Is your inbox full? Whatever, welcome back and I hope you are well.

Tony, thanks, and yes, my in-box truly is full. Apparently it is a side effect of the codeine painkillers I'm on. I'm taking pills to clear the blockage as it were. 

[Dave T]

5 hours ago, kiyan said:

Standard British legal precedent is that people ( even British Citizens) should be tried and punished  in the country they ( allegedly) committed crimes.  Surely this case should be tried in Syria and if she is found guilty of trying to over throw the government, she should face whatever sentence they have in their penal code.

eg If a 19 years old goes to US, gets drunk and recklessly causes a death by encouraging other 19 year olds to drink? - now in the UK drinking at 19 is not illegal so they have committed no crime here!  Should we demand they are sent back here ( an have no punishment) or would we expect that they should obey  the laws in the country they were in and if they didn't, they should face justice there?

What is the difference here?  She may well not have broken any current UK laws, but she certainly has broken plenty in the country she decided to go to!  I don't think her citizenship should be revoked but she should stand trail there!  ( which is exactly what I think should happen to ANY British Citizen who goes to a country where alcohol/homosexuality/drugs/etc are illegal and they break the law there!) You know the consequences, if you are not prepared to accept them, then do not go there/do it!

Which laws has she broken in Syria and what punishments would she get for those crimes there?

[bobbruce]

6 hours ago, kiyan said:

Standard British legal precedent is that people ( even British Citizens) should be tried and punished  in the country they ( allegedly) committed crimes.  Surely this case should be tried in Syria and if she is found guilty of trying to over throw the government, she should face whatever sentence they have in their penal code.

eg If a 19 years old goes to US, gets drunk and recklessly causes a death by encouraging other 19 year olds to drink? - now in the UK drinking at 19 is not illegal so they have committed no crime here!  Should we demand they are sent back here ( an have no punishment) or would we expect that they should obey  the laws in the country they were in and if they didn't, they should face justice there?

What is the difference here?  She may well not have broken any current UK laws, but she certainly has broken plenty in the country she decided to go to!  I don't think her citizenship should be revoked but she should stand trail there!  ( which is exactly what I think should happen to ANY British Citizen who goes to a country where alcohol/homosexuality/drugs/etc are illegal and they break the law there!) You know the consequences, if you are not prepared to accept them, then do not go there/do it!

True up to an extent but I’m sure I remember us in the past refusing to extradite someone for punishment. Usually if the punishment like the death penalty for example is against our beliefs.