SL needs to bring back franchising

[gingerjon]

32 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So a club like say , Leigh have a target of players to produce ? 

I believe a reserve grade is compulsory next year?

That's a standard. So any club that didn't run a reserve team comprising X number of home grown (defined accordingly) players with X number of coaching hours (the WSL do this for their standards) and X number of community hours (ditto) would fail to meet the requirement and could not compete in the division.

As an example.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

I believe a reserve grade is compulsory next year?

That's a standard. So any club that didn't run a reserve team comprising X number of home grown (defined accordingly) players with X number of coaching hours (the WSL do this for their standards) and X number of community hours (ditto) would fail to meet the requirement and could not compete in the division.

As an example.

So they have to produce their reserves ? 

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So they have to produce their reserves ? 

A certain number.

As an example.

[GUBRATS]

24 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

A certain number.

As an example.

So how many years do you get to achieve this ? , I'd suggest 6 

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So how many years do you get to achieve this ? , I'd suggest 6 

You get as many years until the standard is introduced - whatever the standard is - and once it has been introduced you get ZERO years to achieve it because you don't get to play at that level without it.

And if that's too difficult then I've a tiny violin I can lend you.

[Mister Ting]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Standards-based P&R, like they have from top to bottom of the football pyramid.

And whilst we're at it, a pyramid from top to bottom.

Pyramids are for Egypt, Central America and Soccerball.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

You get as many years until the standard is introduced - whatever the standard is - and once it has been introduced you get ZERO years to achieve it because you don't get to play at that level without it.

And if that's too difficult then I've a tiny violin I can lend you.

Fair enough , is that all or is there something else ?

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

7 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

You get as many years until the standard is introduced - whatever the standard is - and once it has been introduced you get ZERO years to achieve it because you don't get to play at that level without it.

And if that's too difficult then I've a tiny violin I can lend you.

Would these standards apply to every club or, to paraphrase George Orwell, are 'some clubs more equal than others'?

And the real biggie.... are these standards going to be set at the level of the lowest present incumbent or are they going to be set high enough to ensure some clubs actually have to put in some effort to meet them and those that do are truly of a  'super' league standard?

 

[gingerjon]

22 minutes ago, Mister Ting said:

Pyramids are for Egypt, Central America and Soccerball.

They all seem like pretty successful forebears to emulate.

[gingerjon]

16 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

Would these standards apply to every club or, to paraphrase George Orwell, are 'some clubs more equal than others'?

And the real biggie.... are these standards going to be set at the level of the lowest present incumbent or are they going to be set high enough to ensure some clubs actually have to put in some effort to meet them and those that do are truly of a  'super' league standard?

 

I'd put them just out of reach of the 'middle' of the pack. Then the majority would need to make some proper and sustained effort.

But then I am just putting out examples of what I think would be best practice. I haven't sat down and thought this through in ages.

[Mister Ting]

4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

They all seem like pretty successful forebears to emulate.

Only soccerball thrives. Soccer is to sport what English is to language. If anything, soccer stands a better chance of being the sporta franca than English remaining the lingua franca.

However, that doesn't mean that every sport should have the same league structure as soccer. Even basketball, soccer's closest rival, has different league structures.

[Cardypaul]

To me the question is why do you want to introduce franchising if it’s just a way of trying to ensure the current batch of clubs keep their noses in the trough then no. 

If you are going to do it I would suggest 2 alternatives clubs are assessed on range of criteria such as facilities, business plans, academies second teams and sustainability. This should include a limit on the amount owners can put in on a similar basis to footballs financial fair play rules and force clubs to be innovative and play on a level basis.

Alternatively you decide how many clubs you want, how many you want in each area ie 4 in Yorkshire 4 n Lancashire 2 in south of England 2 n France and 2 in North America and let people bid for hem either existing clubs or new people and make it a free for all. 

Personally I prefer what we have now.

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

12 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

You just don't get it do you, Leigh was that club you describe for three seasons they lost enough league games you could count on one hand and won the Championship, but that wasn't enough for the fans, they wanted SL, and having tasted it, they want it again, and they will be no different from those at Fev, Bradford, T.O. TWP, Halifax,Widnes and if York keep progressing they also will want it.

Question, would you take employment that would mean you stood on the same square meter of concrete for the rest of your working life, or would you have ambition and want to better yourself or at least have the opportunity to give it go  if you choose the former I can see exactly why you have the views you do.

I get it plenty fine, I posed the question to the what ifs. I get it that people want to play with the big boys and maybe get back what they once had or for some something they never had, but as I asked, if you don't but enjoy success in the league that you are in would you then give up supporting your club?

As a sport we want to establish ourselves internationally more than we are and have success as a nation. Do we give up supporting because we don't have those things and don't reach the zenith?

I posed the question with the jeopardy of P&R, so what about with licensing, you have say a 5 year cycle, how would you feel if your club were getting mullered week in week out over 5 years, losing fans by the bucket load because who wants to watch a team getting paggied every week? Club ends up in more debt after the end of 5 years if they survive at all on the TV money, is that scenario more acceptable than being successful in the league below?

Speculate to accumulate, I get that, but for some clubs/towns they simply are not and never will be big enough to make it and sustain it in SL unless they have a deep pocket benefactor, that was part of the OPs post and I agree with it. Does that mean teams/towns should not try, of course not

I never at any point suggested we should go back to licensing, maybe you should re-read things

And finally you comparing work/home life to leisure/supporting a sporting club is totally bunk, the two things are not remotely the same so your example is irrelevant to the discussion. Have a long hard think about it because the impacts both intrinsically/financially and also emotively are utterly poles apart.

[GUBRATS]

5 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Do you honestly believe those clubs would build any better under licencing or franchises ? 

From my point of view , would I want the club I support ( Leigh ) locked into a licenced SL ? , No I wouldn't , I am under no illusions ,Leigh would most likely be a bottom half of SL club , so the prospect of paying to watch ' dead rubber ' games against the other bottom half dwellers season after season doesn't fill me with enthusiasm , I'd end up just paying to watch us play the big clubs in the hope of taking a big scalp , but having to avoid being relegated would spur me on to support the team until that safety was achieved , not perfect ,but that's the way it is 

Not sure which way you are looking at this Denton , but the above is how I see it 

[Harry Stottle]

10 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

 

The article is sadly all too correct.

No it isn't, that is your opinion of some Aussie commentator who doesn't know what he is talking about, Leeds having a quiet season my harse, how about 3 of the last 4 seasons, that would be nearer to the truth.

[Harry Stottle]

10 hours ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

Would these standards apply to every club or, to paraphrase George Orwell, are 'some clubs more equal than others'?

And the real biggie.... are these standards going to be set at the level of the lowest present incumbent or are they going to be set high enough to ensure some clubs actually have to put in some effort to meet them and those that do are truly of a  'super' league standard?

 

It will be done to suit, don't forget the body of people who will be collating and populate any list of criteria will be the people it effects i.e. the SL clubs, they will organise, audit and pass off what the minimum standards will be, now how many of those Turkey's do you think will be voting for Christmas?

[Harry Stottle]

10 hours ago, gingerjon said:

I'd put them just out of reach of the 'middle' of the pack. Then the majority would need to make some proper and sustained effort.

But then I am just putting out examples of what I think would be best practice. I haven't sat down and thought this through in ages.

As I said to Les above Ginger, who do you think will be the author of such a document, do you expect it to be done professionally and SL will employ some independant body who will produce an unbiased catalogue of criteria?

[RP London]

30 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

As I said to Les above Ginger, who do you think will be the author of such a document, do you expect it to be done professionally and SL will employ some independant body who will produce an unbiased catalogue of criteria?

Lets be fair on this... this is a "what should happen" thread and, i would guess, everyone would accept that this has to be done properly from outside of the clubs and with proper research and time taken, not thrown together on an internet forum or put in place by the "turkeys". 

Its a theoretical argument of how the sport should be run, not how it will be and we have no influence.. but again there are plenty of examples from other sports of how to do this properly.

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

As I said to Les above Ginger, who do you think will be the author of such a document, do you expect it to be done professionally and SL will employ some independant body who will produce an unbiased catalogue of criteria?

No, I expect SL and the RFL to fudge it and then not enforce any rules anyway. Because they always do.

What they should do is have a transparent, independent commission working to agreed principles that will then have teeth. They won't though. Ever.

 

[The Parksider]

On 21/07/2019 at 13:30, mightyship said:

We’ve had licensing before and how successful was it? Still playing the game in all the same places we were before. Im yet to be convinced that there is a market for RL in places other than certain parts of northern England and South West France. London are playing in SL this year - and going better than many imagined- but that doesn’t seem to have captured the imagination of many of the London public  .

A gold plated realist enters the debate, over 122 years and around 50 failed attempts to expand tells the truth. I blooming love this game to death but am supposedly a narrow minded dinosaur for not cheering on projects (not London) that are frankly laughable.

On 21/07/2019 at 13:52, Themusician_2 said:

RL is still largely unknown in London. London is a massive place we need at least 4 teams in London. The market is there we just got develop it a bit more then the sport will take off. It won't be easy there's Chelsea, Crystal Palace,West Ham , Arsenal, Tottenham Hotspur, QPR, Brentford, Charlton Athletic, Harlequins, London Irish and Saracens. There's a lot of sports team to drag peoples attention away. 

Unbelievable post. You tell me EXACTLY WHY RL can make no ground in London, then you casually state the sport will take off? I do believe if London had had a multi-Millionaire pumping money in annually after the successes of the late 1990's we would have got there. But the money men walked, so how can you start talking about three more clubs appearing??

11 hours ago, RP London said:

Lets be fair on this... this is a "what should happen" thread and, i would guess, everyone would accept that this has to be done properly from outside of the clubs and with proper research and time taken, not thrown together on an internet forum or put in place by the "turkeys". Its a theoretical argument of how the sport should be run, not how it will be and we have no influence.. but again there are plenty of examples from other sports of how to do this properly.

You can’t do it. Franchises must follow the same business model. We can only do it if we bring the criteria down to a low common denominator 12 clubs can meet. Even then it’s not really Franchising as such but Licensing where the 12 clubs who come as near as possible to the criteria are chosen.

I have the 2011 licensing results. In terms of the Franchise criteria only Leeds, Hull, Wigan and Wire met the “franchise” standard which was an “A” grade. Five clubs can do this now since Saints built a new ground. That’s it. Only five clubs are up to the business model we want.

In 2011 out of the 8 sub-standard clubs chosen to make the league up to 12 there was Harlequins who eventually collapsed. There was Widnes who got a good write up but they collapsed. There was Bradford who got an even better write up but collapsed big style. Salford only got in on the new stadium being financed but as we see with them they failed to make it pay and are also close to collapse.

Please let’s stop these nonsense threads in which basically a London fan insists SL needs London, or an overseas club fan insists SL need to be multi national, so their club can have a free ride in SL and never be relegated.

Annual P&R is a vital pressure valve to release clubs who are collapsing ASAP and get in clubs who are succeeding. Licensing traps failing clubs into appalling situations where they see their licenses out as pathetic easybeats, This then blocks top Championship clubs who can beat all before them – yet are given no reward.

SL bosses are right to concede P&R but even then it can cause a disaster if a £Millionaires club like Caddick’s Leeds or Davey’s Fartown come bottom of SL and an unwanted inept club comes top of the Championship. But the solution was there many years ago when both Hunslet & Dewsbury were denied promotion and Huddersfield kept in. For those who claim “this isn’t sport” fair enough, but I say this IS business and in the end some tough decisions have to be made for the good of that business.

[Omott91]

The problem Super League has is that it has no identity. It doesn't know what type of competition it wants to be. Evidence of this is how many different format/structures there has been over the years. Even now there is speculation over the years that lie ahead.

Should Super League remain a British style format with P and R, or  revert yet again to licensing?

Embrace NA expansion or not.

Let the Rfl drive things forward or allow club Chairmen to dictate the sport from now on?

It isn't until the British game answers these points that it will finally be able to grow and become the sport that people believe it should be.

Until then I believe that the British game will continue to be in a state of flux.

[Harry Stottle]

On 24/07/2019 at 05:33, Omott91 said:

The problem Super League has is that it has no identity. It doesn't know what type of competition it wants to be. Evidence of this is how many different format/structures there has been over the years. Even now there is speculation over the years that lie ahead.

Should Super League remain a British style format with P and R, or  revert yet again to licensing?

Embrace NA expansion or not.

Let the Rfl drive things forward or allow club Chairmen to dictate the sport from now on?

It isn't until the British game answers these points that it will finally be able to grow and become the sport that people believe it should be.

Until then I believe that the British game will continue to be in a state of flux.

Because of the quality of leadership we have enjoyed (or otherwise) in my opinion it has been far to weak, lacking both ideas, leadership and direction for far to long that different factions believe that they can do a better job, I used to have this vision in my head whenever I saw a picture of Woods and Rimmer together of two seedy back street cut price car salesmen, would you buy a car from them?

[Gooleboy]

9 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Because of the quality of leadership we have enjoyed (or otherwise) in my opinion it has been far to weak, lacking both ideas, leadership and direction for far to long that different factions believe that they can do a better job, I used to have this vision in my head whenever I saw a picture of Woods and Rimmer together of two seedy back street cut price car salesmen, would you buy a car from them?

Fair point, but would you buy one off the Super League lot either?

[Harry Stottle]

4 hours ago, Gooleboy said:

Fair point, but would you buy one off the Super League lot either?

Come to think of it, absolutely no, especially the two chairs from the far east and the two giants west of the big hill.

[bar red]

Franchising isn't in the British psyche.