The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Ooh Ah Timmy Street]

Franchising seems the only way, however no P&R takes a massive entertainment factor out of the ‘product’. I don’t support a superleague club, though do enjoy watching on sky . With no relegation this year, it has taken away a lot of interest , as opposed to last year when I followed London every week to see if they could do it. Similarly this year with Toronto at the start . Wakefield vs Huddersfield playing for nothing just doesn’t interest me.  

[Ooh Ah Timmy Street]

9 hours ago, Gooleboy said:

So drawbridge up, a League of elitism and stuff the rest. Don't go and watch your team anymore as you will not get into the "closed shop". Happy days for the chosen few.

Agree - when the previous joke of a licensing system was in place in superleague , it was pointless paying to watch a lower league club - the games may have well been friendlies . 

[Rupert Prince]

9 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

No idea what all your ' waffle ' was meant to achieve , you stated that a club ( Wakefield ) being relegated would be a disaster , is that any more of a disaster than a club being refused promotion ? 

Is that difficult to comprehend ? 

Clubs in a lower tier that do not have to over extend and can play at a level that they can sustain is not a disaster. They play competitive clubs at their suitable level.

With promotion, a lower tier club that gains promotion then has to commit to significant salaries and costs which - if it then gets relegation - faces dangerous losses.  Of course they could just not invest and do nothing, comfortable in not being competitive... But what is the point of that?

Ultimately the top clubs that are viable will take matters in their own hands. They will determine how the game expands. 

 

[Rupert Prince]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

OK, sport and being a contest comes secondary in your world, I shall leave it at that. 

Like Manchester City, United, Liverpool, Arsenal...?  Stop making bogus comparisons.

Your whole attitude is wrong headed.  These big clubs are businesses, big businesses and they are competitive and their business is competitive sport.  And their interest is not at the bottom of the ladder, it is at the top 6.

Not only cannot you add up 1 and 2 together... you cannot even get as far as '1'  !   

In RL terms we are involved in serious money.  In an amateur game, even a part time game, P&R is a a toy, a plaything, an abstract concept, something that has no real consequence. 

It was all fine when we had 30 teams that were virtually amateur and being bottom was of no consequence. The 50s are gone.  Stop living in a dream world.

[The Rocket]

19 hours ago, RoyBoy295 said:

Drunk at one end, high at the other. You think people are really going to give a ###### what is going on in the middle, or care?

Them Papa Johns pizzas will never taste so good after a ` session` in the ` smokers only` part of the stadium. 

 

Cheech and Chong on their way to watch the Wolf pack.

[DEANO]

17 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

My thought experiment suggested that a club (any club really) would think hard to invest huge sums on a stadium but then find itself relegated.

Under old middle 8 system a team could invest like that, and finish 9th... And still get relegated.

And of course, even now with the Championship system, a club could invest in facilities (or whatever), get relegated into the Championship (parachutes and all) and finish top the following season...  only to lose in the Championship playoffs!

Of course there is another scenario as well, the relegated team can be run by total twassocks and deserve relegation... But crawled to 4th (on points difference) in the Championship, after the leader won by 10points with a huge future ahead of it.  But the leader lost the playoffs - because its star player broke his leg.

I don't think that thought experiment is that difficult to comprehend, is it?   

What people need to get round their heads is that for Professional Rugby League P & R is a disaster. 

Boo hoo lets have lots of meaningless games instead

[DemonUK]

So Bob Hunter is confident of presenting the new owner to the RFL/SL by next Tuesday.  Yet in the same breath he talks about the American ownership group and says there is still a UK unterest, who are a little slower in gettng things together.  Name me a businessman who would 'buy' a club AND pay at least four months of debts off.  The debt will be a fairly substantial number also.

As far as i see it is just another Toronto special (words and no action - ask the Skolars).  Noticed too that they may ask for an extension.

[Gooleboy]

16 minutes ago, DemonUK said:

So Bob Hunter is confident of presenting the new owner to the RFL/SL by next Tuesday.  Yet in the same breath he talks about the American ownership group and says there is still a UK unterest, who are a little slower in gettng things together.  Name me a businessman who would 'buy' a club AND pay at least four months of debts off.  The debt will be a fairly substantial number also.

As far as i see it is just another Toronto special (words and no action - ask the Skolars).  Noticed too that they may ask for an extension.

It seems that whatever Toronto say or do, in most things don't do, as you say above, some on here won't have a word said against them.

[silverback]

46 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

It seems that whatever Toronto say or do, in most things don't do, as you say above, some on here won't have a word said against them.

Seems to have been a lot of u turns from a few who told us to look and learn a while back,one or two have suprised me once players and staff were left penny less and in the dark.will we live and learn that its not all about £$£$£$£. it helps but no good without people who know what there doing at top level if your aiming to beat the best.

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

Like Manchester City, United, Liverpool, Arsenal...?  Stop making bogus comparisons.

Your whole attitude is wrong headed.  These big clubs are businesses, big businesses and they are competitive and their business is competitive sport.  And their interest is not at the bottom of the ladder, it is at the top 6.

Not only cannot you add up 1 and 2 together... you cannot even get as far as '1'  !   

In RL terms we are involved in serious money.  In an amateur game, even a part time game, P&R is a a toy, a plaything, an abstract concept, something that has no real consequence. 

It was all fine when we had 30 teams that were virtually amateur and being bottom was of no consequence. The 50s are gone.  Stop living in a dream world.

Oh my, here we go again with some daft wassack who wishes to emphasize that football and rugby league can be used as comparatives entities to get an argument across, it was as like one of your last posts when you mentioned a 100% Amatuer club Leigh Miners replacing a semi-pro club it simply has no relevance to the discussion that is why I did not answer.

Anyway if the Closed Shop does return I have said what I will do, you go along to the DW (if you do go that is) and watch those games that mean nothing, all Wigginers can not be that daft that they will pay to go to watch meaningless games, the attendances have been dropping season on season in Wiggin get ready for that to take a bigger leap further down with games if no consequence.

[redjonn]

11 hours ago, SL17 said:

You all need to give your heads a wobble. Let’s start making this game.

Whats in the past stays there. If you’re in the past then stay there. 
 

Your past interest or even financial viability was #### ing useless.

The game has failed through people who live in the past.

maybe, but some big assumptions may i say... without going into lots of detail... just to say the sport came from the past and just maybe has lived up to this point because of the  past.

That's not to say  improvements can't be made but they don't have to depend on Toronto. That's an option, not a good one in my opinion giving I think we should be focused on France as expansion priority.

[TheReaper]

I believe that every game has value in and of itself. Pride and competitiveness is intrinsic to sports. 

Even with P+R, for a number of mid table clubs in many leagues, they'll never win, they might not make playoff if there are any, they won't be in the bottom couple to fear relegation. Are all their games meaningless?

People playing in a game want to win. That's why they play. That the game has significance to a larger season is added, but not required, for enjoyment. The same applies to many fans watching their team.

One of my opposition clubs in our amateur RU league had an end of season "friendly" against another club. They were short players (the Boots and Hearts festival was that weekend) so me and a few guys went to go help them. The game wasn't part of any season, but they still all REALLY wanted to win. And, even us outsiders, REALLY wanted to win. Because we were there to play rugby and we play rugby to try to win. 

 

[Robin Evans]

1 minute ago, TheReaper said:

I believe that every game has value in and of itself. Pride and competitiveness is intrinsic to sports. 

Even with P+R, for a number of mid table clubs in many leagues, they'll never win, they might not make playoff if there are any, they won't be in the bottom couple to fear relegation. Are all their games meaningless?

People playing in a game want to win. That's why they play. That the game has significance to a larger season is added, but not required, for enjoyment. The same applies to many fans watching their team.

One of my opposition clubs in our amateur RU league had an end of season "friendly" against another club. They were short players (the Boots and Hearts festival was that weekend) so me and a few guys went to go help them. The game wasn't part of any season, but they still all REALLY wanted to win. And, even us outsiders, REALLY wanted to win. Because we were there to play rugby and we play rugby to try to win. 

 

The last time we had licencing I continued to watch my club. I lost heart. That hope that my club might get a go in SL removed for a system I loathe.

I watched my club win a grand final.... and yes it was OK, but the level of elation was quite low. It meant little to me beyond that game. No promotion. No looking forward to another challenge. Hope suppressed for licencing.

I will walk away if that system returns.

[Oldbear]

18 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

So it only works if you win , I'd suggest you find another interest , because the whole point of sport is that for every winner there is a loser , somebody will finish top , and somebody else will finish bottom 

So what do you want , Toronto get extra players on the pitch ? , A ten point start ? , Haven't you ever heard the term " may the best team win " that refers to their endeavours on the day , not some pre ordained decision , or some childish " if we don't win , were taking our ball home " 

This thread gets crazyer day by day 

Not at all, my team back in the UK have been whipping boys for much of their short life. The reason I made this post is that I keep seeing comments about how having TWP in SL could deliver untold riches from a NA TV deal, when the reality is that if you want a good TV audience you need to provide competitive games and the best chance of attracting interest in Canada (because let’s be totally honest, outside of the several thousand showing up at Lamport for every home game, there is probably very little interest in TWP from the rest of the country) it wouldn’t hurt for TWP to be in the top half of the league. I don’t see the current TWP squad ever being more than whipping boys and that will no doubt lead to a painful slow death, in which case we have to ask whether admitting them straight back in could turn out to cause more harm than good.

[Oldbear]

17 hours ago, ojx said:. SL clubs just see licensing as a protection racket. They did it before, and where for example, are Wakefield and Castleford's new or improved stadiums they could have invested in?

Here is the main problem. If the sport had 12 (or 14), really strong candidates who were measurably superior than the rest in term of both on and off field operations then it’s easy to have a licensed competition but let’s be honest we don’t have that, in fact there is little difference in the operations of Fev and Wakey, Leigh and Salford if you take away the TV money. If we truly wanted an NRL style licensed league we could end up with a 6 team comp and no one, especially TV companies wants to watch the 6th instalment of Leeds v Saints. The league itself does not have enough big, strong clubs to allow for a licensed approach so implementing one now would just be nothing more than a protection racket for the existing incumbents.

The NRL does have those strong teams, we don’t, so comparisons with the NRL are currently meaningless.

[Robin Evans]

21 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

Here is the main problem. If the sport had 12 (or 14), really strong candidates who were measurably superior than the rest in term of both on and off field operations then it’s easy to have a licensed competition but let’s be honest we don’t have that, in fact there is little difference in the operations of Fev and Wakey, Leigh and Salford if you take away the TV money. If we truly wanted an NRL style licensed league we could end up with a 6 team comp and no one, especially TV companies wants to watch the 6th instalment of Leeds v Saints. The league itself does not have enough big, strong clubs to allow for a licensed approach so implementing one now would just be nothing more than a protection racket for the existing incumbents.

The NRL does have those strong teams, we don’t, so comparisons with the NRL are currently meaningless.

Yes. This x1000

[GUBRATS]

2 hours ago, TheReaper said:

I believe that every game has value in and of itself. Pride and competitiveness is intrinsic to sports. 

Even with P+R, for a number of mid table clubs in many leagues, they'll never win, they might not make playoff if there are any, they won't be in the bottom couple to fear relegation. Are all their games meaningless?

People playing in a game want to win. That's why they play. That the game has significance to a larger season is added, but not required, for enjoyment. The same applies to many fans watching their team.

One of my opposition clubs in our amateur RU league had an end of season "friendly" against another club. They were short players (the Boots and Hearts festival was that weekend) so me and a few guys went to go help them. The game wasn't part of any season, but they still all REALLY wanted to win. And, even us outsiders, REALLY wanted to win. Because we were there to play rugby and we play rugby to try to win. 

 

So now you are telling me how i should think and feel ? 

[GUBRATS]

46 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

Not at all, my team back in the UK have been whipping boys for much of their short life. The reason I made this post is that I keep seeing comments about how having TWP in SL could deliver untold riches from a NA TV deal, when the reality is that if you want a good TV audience you need to provide competitive games and the best chance of attracting interest in Canada (because let’s be totally honest, outside of the several thousand showing up at Lamport for every home game, there is probably very little interest in TWP from the rest of the country) it wouldn’t hurt for TWP to be in the top half of the league. I don’t see the current TWP squad ever being more than whipping boys and that will no doubt lead to a painful slow death, in which case we have to ask whether admitting them straight back in could turn out to cause more harm than good.

So again , " let us win , or I'm taking my ball home " 

[Gooleboy]

2 hours ago, Robin Evans said:

The last time we had licencing I continued to watch my club. I lost heart. That hope that my club might get a go in SL removed for a system I loathe.

I watched my club win a grand final.... and yes it was OK, but the level of elation was quite low. It meant little to me beyond that game. No promotion. No looking forward to another challenge. Hope suppressed for licencing.

I will walk away if that system returns.

So will many others.

[GUBRATS]

9 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

Clubs in a lower tier that do not have to over extend and can play at a level that they can sustain is not a disaster. They play competitive clubs at their suitable level.

With promotion, a lower tier club that gains promotion then has to commit to significant salaries and costs which - if it then gets relegation - faces dangerous losses.  Of course they could just not invest and do nothing, comfortable in not being competitive... But what is the point of that?

Ultimately the top clubs that are viable will take matters in their own hands. They will determine how the game expands. 

 

" Comfortable in not being competitive " , isn't that what the clubs at the bottom of a ' locked in ' SL would be ?

But what is the point of that ?

[Rupert Prince]

6 hours ago, DEANO said:

Boo hoo lets have lots of meaningless games instead

That's absurd.  Going back to the beginnings of RL, going through its golden age of post war record crowds, there was 1 division. A division of 30 teams.  How many of those were meaningless?  Crowds still watched the games.  And clubs were not on their last legs nor struggling to face bankrupsy.  In 1953 Billy Boston played his first game in an A Team match.  7000 turned up to watch.  

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

That's absurd.  Going back to the beginnings of RL, going through its golden age of post war record crowds, there was 1 division. A division of 30 teams.  How many of those were meaningless?  Crowds still watched the games.  And clubs were not on their last legs nor struggling to face bankrupsy.  In 1953 Billy Boston played his first game in an A Team match.  7000 turned up to watch.  

What was on SKY Sports back then ?

[DEANO]

14 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

That's absurd.  Going back to the beginnings of RL, going through its golden age of post war record crowds, there was 1 division. A division of 30 teams.  How many of those were meaningless?  Crowds still watched the games.  And clubs were not on their last legs nor struggling to face bankrupsy.  In 1953 Billy Boston played his first game in an A Team match.  7000 turned up to watch.  

It’s quite simple really. If there’s no relegation there is no need to improve. Just turn up and take the money. Will make the game stale

[Rupert Prince]

5 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Oh my, here we go again with some daft wassack who wishes to emphasize that football and rugby league can be used as comparatives entities to get an argument across, it was as like one of your last posts when you mentioned a 100% Amatuer club Leigh Miners replacing a semi-pro club it simply has no relevance to the discussion that is why I did not answer.

Anyway if the Closed Shop does return I have said what I will do, you go along to the DW (if you do go that is) and watch those games that mean nothing, all Wigginers can not be that daft that they will pay to go to watch meaningless games, the attendances have been dropping season on season in Wiggin get ready for that to take a bigger leap further down with games if no consequence.

Your running out of ideas and you are incapable of following English comprehension, or a logical argument.

Let's leave aside 'daft wassakary' and talking down 'Wiggin'.  The harsh reality is you have no answer to what you call the 'closed shop'.  You have to reduce yourself to that perjorative language because you cannot defend my logic.  AFL and NRL have expanded.  So have all the other competitions which I have have regularly compared to when I point out our own contraction.

[Robin Evans]

I suspect this isn't the time to point out that you "compare with" and not "compare to"!!!

Yes I'm a pedantic 2@.