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1 minute ago, Bob8 said:

I would agree that any player endorsing those attacks should also expect it to affect their career to be affected.

Has that actually happened?

That is not what my reply was about ... you need to read the reply you quoted in relation to all the previous posts leading to it.

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8 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

i found it kinda of hypocritical that you think the forum for "hate speech" determines whether it is ok to not to be honest.

I specifically said that I do not believe it to be hate speech.

The speed at which you fire off your replies to multiple people shows that you are perhaps not reading and certainly not taking the time to digest what people are saying before you come back.

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4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

 

 

But this goes back to my point about a key difference being that Cockayne was dealt with, and apologised and then had an option to try and get his head down and redeem himself. We are aligned that the game should offer these opportunities to these people. 

Folau isn't in that camp, and is simply keeping his mouth shut because he needs his salary. There is no journey of redemption here. 

I'll repeat again, I don't think the game should be banning people for stuff like this, but there is a difference between offering chance for people to rebuild their lives after going off the rails, and Folau. 

Cockayne physically assaulted someone as well

I'm not sure that just saying sorry is much use.

And we have to look at what Folaus crime is here. Holding those views or expressing them. 

Because if its holding them, then lots of people are going to be cast out.

I'd its airing them, he has apologised and promised not to do that again. 

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Just now, Johnoco said:

In your opinion. Only that guy frank has come back and said he was defending him- hardly a majority.

Who has said a majority? 

I only highlighted 3. And whilst Ian's clarification is fine, his first post was a justification of Folau's comments I. e explaining that it was from the bible. We all knew that, so if it isn't any kind of justification then what is it? 

And people are perfectly entitled to defend Folau, but let's not pretend that there hasn't been any defence, in a thread where people have been called do-gooder and even Martyn has been accusing people of being offended on behalf of others, I don't see how they are not defences of Folau. 

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1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

I specifically said that I do not believe it to be hate speech.

The speed at which you fire off your replies to multiple people shows that you are perhaps not reading and certainly not taking the time to digest what people are saying before you come back.

so if its not hate speech then hes perfectly allowed to express his own religious views anywhere then??

whether or not you or i think his religious views are absolutely stupid?

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1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Cockayne physically assaulted someone as well

I'm not sure that just saying sorry is much use.

And we have to look at what Folaus crime is here. Holding those views or expressing them. 

Because if its holding them, then lots of people are going to be cast out.

I'd its airing them, he has apologised and promised not to do that again. 

Tbh, you've come in well after we have discussed most of the above. 

Wasn't Cockayne dealt with? 

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Just now, Dave T said:

Who has said a majority? 

I only highlighted 3. And whilst Ian's clarification is fine, his first post was a justification of Folau's comments I. e explaining that it was from the bible. We all knew that, so if it isn't any kind of justification then what is it? 

And people are perfectly entitled to defend Folau, but let's not pretend that there hasn't been any defence, in a thread where people have been called do-gooder and even Martyn has been accusing people of being offended on behalf of others, I don't see how they are not defences of Folau. 

people are defending his right to his views.  not his actual views.  major difference.

i havent seen much support for his actual views as being right at all.

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2 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

so if its not hate speech then hes perfectly allowed to express his own religious views anywhere then??

whether or not you or i think his religious views are absolutely stupid?

I have already covered that. Deeply held and personal beliefs can be interpreted as hate speech by those who hold different beliefs or values. Especially when they feel that these beliefs are being pushed or directed towards them.

As I say, if Falou had said almost exactly the same thing in a different way (with context around his personal beliefs and his desire to help people) there would have been no fuss and he would still be playing for the Wallabies now.

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10 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

That is not what my reply was about ... you need to read the reply you quoted in relation to all the previous posts leading to it.

You are right.

That said, I would suggest that hateful quotes about any religion can cause issues. Rangers are not allowed to be sectarian anymore, suggesting anti-Christian discrimination is not as OK as it was.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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14 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

i share your views.  arent christians allowed to say we are the wrong ones and they are right?

They are.

Now, suppose I'd just promised my employer that I wouldn't go online and say that Christians are making it up … and yet here I am having just done that.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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2 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

people are defending his right to his views.  not his actual views.  major difference.

i havent seen much support for his actual views as being right at all.

I haven't claimed people are supporting his viewspoint that gays are going to hell. I expect most think the concept of hell is silly. 

Some people are justifying what he is saying as his religion and others are actually criticising those who are offended as being do-gooders. Those doing this are not condemning Folau, but are condemning those complaining. That is an odd approach. 

It is in fact what you are doing. You have turned this completely away from Folau and turned it on people who find his comments out of order. 

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10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Tbh, you've come in well after we have discussed most of the above. 

Wasn't Cockayne dealt with? 

With a small fine and a warning 

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4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I haven't claimed people are supporting his viewspoint that gays are going to hell. I expect most think the concept of hell is silly. 

Some people are justifying what he is saying as his religion and others are actually criticising those who are offended as being do-gooders. Those doing this are not condemning Folau, but are condemning those complaining. That is an odd approach. 

It is in fact what you are doing. You have turned this completely away from Folau and turned it on people who find his comments out of order. 

thanks.  i was hoping to do that.

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One good thing to come out of all this is that Satanism can finally get over it's tarnished image.

What better advert for inclusivity and tolerance than "Hell awaits drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolators'...?

Edited by Cheshire Setter

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6 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

They are.

Now, suppose I'd just promised my employer that I wouldn't go online and say that Christians are making it up … and yet here I am having just done that.

yep.  if he does it again catalans should sack him ASAP.

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Just now, aj1908 said:

yep.  if he does it again catalans should sack him ASAP.

So he has no free speech. This is an outrage.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Just now, Cheshire Setter said:

One good thing to come out of all this is that Satanism can finally get over it's tarnished image.

What better advert for inclusivity and tolerance than "Hell awaits drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolators'...

to be fair would you want to go to heaven and spend the rest of eternity with people like israel folau?

 

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Just now, gingerjon said:

So he has no free speech. This is an outrage.

if you think what ive said is a contradiction good luck to you.

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10 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I have already covered that. Deeply held and personal beliefs can be interpreted as hate speech by those who hold different beliefs or values. Especially when they feel that these beliefs are being pushed or directed towards them.

As I say, if Falou had said almost exactly the same thing in a different way (with context around his personal beliefs and his desire to help people) there would have been no fuss and he would still be playing for the Wallabies now.

but you didnt find it to be hate speech.  im sure anytime someone has an opinion there will be people offended by it.  what if his intentions was to give advice on how people can go to heaven (which he actually said was his intention).

 

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1 minute ago, aj1908 said:

but you didnt find it to be hate speech.  im sure anytime someone has an opinion there will be people offended by it.  what if his intentions was to give advice on how people can go to heaven (which he actually said was his intention).

 

I am going to politely back out of our chat.

I am really happy to discuss things with you but I genuinely don't know what your stance is here, all I can see is that you just offer a contrary opinion to almost every post even if it contradicts something you have previously said. That is not discussion, it is point scoring.

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9 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

to be fair would you want to go to heaven and spend the rest of eternity with people like israel folau?

 

In all seriousness I sometimes wonder if former bad-boys do all this to make themselves feel better about their past.

I used to live in Northern Ireland and met a lot of former bad boys from both sides of the political divide who had become born-again Christians as a way to separate them from their past activities.   Get a couple of drinks in them though, and you soon see the real side of them come out.

Edited by Cheshire Setter

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4 minutes ago, Cheshire Setter said:

In all seriousness I sometimes wonder if former bad-boys do all this to make themselves feel better about their past.

I used to live in Northern Ireland and met a lot of former bad boys from both sides of the political divide who had become born-again Christians as a way to separate them from their past activities.   Get a couple of drinks in them and you soon see the real side of them come out.

SBW has come good since he found islam.  hes done a complete change from when he was young.  folau wasnt that much of a bad boy but he did like to drink a lot.

edit : im sure this is something SBW regrets now

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa/sport-stars-in-toilet-tryst-ng-6bf28d214120abc684ce0fa45f294d9a

Edited by aj1908

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15 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

SBW has come good since he found islam.  hes done a complete change from when he was young.  folau wasnt that much of a bad boy but he did like to drink a lot.

edit : im sure this is something SBW regrets now

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa/sport-stars-in-toilet-tryst-ng-6bf28d214120abc684ce0fa45f294d9a

To be fair, many just grow up. 

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