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4 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

But as well as football it's available for functions and events.... A relative of mine was married there.  The 'executive suites", plus facilities/events under the stands. 

Other clubs/stadiums are the same.  I've been to corporate/exhibition things at various places...  Wolves Newcastle Villa Glasgow Rangers/Celtic Derby Norwich, one or two more if I could spend a bit more time.

Extra seats are not an issue really.

It's not about the empty seats, it's about the lack of income from seats that weren't anticipated to be empty. If you're building a stadium you're going to need a rough idea of how many fans you think the club playing there is likely to attract and balance that against the running costs.

If you're anticipating crowds of around 16,000 though, and only get 10,000 then that's 6,000 fewer tickets/season tickets and 6,000 people not spending money on food and drink at the grounds, buying programs, betting or taking part in half time draws.

Pretty much all modern stadiums have corporate/exhibition facilities as an extra money maker. There's likely to be a limit on how much they are used, and how much you can charge people to use them though. The local economy will make a difference there, including how many other places in the area can cater for similar functions.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Bolton had similarly massive financial problems. It's not all to do with stadiums, or even mostly to do with stadiums, but the fact that these arenas were built with Premier League football in mind and presumably attendances to match surely hasn't helped now that they are almost always more than half empty on match days.

Edited by EagleEyePie

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2 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

But as well as football it's available for functions and events.... A relative of mine was married there.  The 'executive suites", plus facilities/events under the stands. 

Other clubs/stadiums are the same.  I've been to corporate/exhibition things at various places...  Wolves Newcastle Villa Glasgow Rangers/Celtic Derby Norwich, one or two more if I could spend a bit more time.

Extra seats are not an issue really.

I am aware of the conference suites, weddings etc, many stadia as you say are used for those purposes. I was responding to a post commenting on the stadium being a large capacity for the two resident clubs. You may not consider extra seats that never get filled an issue but it must be a factor for clubs/SMCs in terms of initial build costs and ongoing maintenance costs. If it wasn't an issue then clubs would build stadia well in excess of their typical gate all the time but they don't. They may go a little above their typical gate size to leave room for occasional growth with good seasons (or plan easy methods for increasing capacity if needed as with the HJ) but they don't build significantly above it like the DW (where they were anticipating EPL campaigns and aiming to maximise earnings during those by having more seats). For a club that drops down the divisions a stadium much larger than the average gate demands tends to become a millstone around the neck of the club.

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3 hours ago, Padge said:

While in administration the administrator will try to keep income streams flowing, hence places like Debenhams who have gone into administration still open their shops. The administrator will be fairly ruthless though about not losing more money. Hence sometimes when a chain goes into admin some bits stay open and some bits are closed.

Putting on a rugby game at the stadium costs a lot less, no policing costs for a start off, fewer stewards and because drinks can be taken to your seat more income for the bars during the game and you get a cut of the gate as rent.

If the rugby at the minimum break even or return a profit whereas the soccer means the stadium makes a loss then the administrator has a difficult decision to make. If he says no soccer as that will lose the stadium more money, he may devalue the whole or part of the package. The previous owners had (apparently) already said that the stadium wasn't viable without the rugby  so from that one presumes the rugby games make a profit.

If Wigan take on the stadium then they have the reverse problem, do you charge a rent that ensures you cover costs when you host a soccer game risking driving the soccer away (to say Leigh Sports Village) or do you run them at a loss and stand that costs, in that case the rugby would be directly subsidising the soccer, whereas at the moment they have been subsidising it indirectly.

The sanctions for failing to fulfil a fixture would dwarf the saving made from preventing hosting a loss-making fixture. Not only would they get fined, but they’d also face a possible points deductions and/or transfer embargo which would make it even less attractive to potential buyers. 

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9 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said:

The sanctions for failing to fulfil a fixture would dwarf the saving made from preventing hosting a loss-making fixture. Not only would they get fined, but they’d also face a possible points deductions and/or transfer embargo which would make it even less attractive to potential buyers. 

League points don't pay creditors to paraphrase Bob Dylan, that is why I said he has a difficult decision to make and not playing could devalue things. However he may have a problem if the people who run the catering franchise won't play ball, and the stewarding company says get stuffed we want our money and the biggie could be if the owe GMP for policing and they say sorry no dice, because if they say pay up front or no game and he doesn't pay upfront its no game. If there is no money then the administrators will have to pay up and if that devalues the club then they get to a point where there is no money for them.

That probably simplifies things but administrators are in this to make money for their business.


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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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1 hour ago, Damien said:

Wigan Athletic haven't been losing £9 million a year due to the cost of the stadium.

They've been losing it because of the cost of the players.

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1 hour ago, Padge said:

League points don't pay creditors to paraphrase Bob Dylan, that is why I said he has a difficult decision to make and not playing could devalue things. However he may have a problem if the people who run the catering franchise won't play ball, and the stewarding company says get stuffed we want our money and the biggie could be if the owe GMP for policing and they say sorry no dice, because if they say pay up front or no game and he doesn't pay upfront its no game. If there is no money then the administrators will have to pay up and if that devalues the club then they get to a point where there is no money for them.

That probably simplifies things but administrators are in this to make money for their business.

if all the creditors demand their money (which they are entitled to), the stadium goes skint & the football & rugby clubs fold or move, the creditors still dont get their money! so the administrator needs to find the best solution. a ground with 2 teams in it, covering 40+ matchdays a year should cover costs. this year is an exceptional in every respect.

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6 minutes ago, kev p said:

if all the creditors demand their money (which they are entitled to), the stadium goes skint & the football & rugby clubs fold or move, the creditors still dont get their money! so the administrator needs to find the best solution. a ground with 2 teams in it, covering 40+ matchdays a year should cover costs. this year is an exceptional in every respect.

How does the rugby club fold, they have absolutely nothing to do with this. The rugby club has a stadium, well two in fact.

 


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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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2 minutes ago, Padge said:

How does the rugby club fold, they have absolutely nothing to do with this. The rugby club has a stadium, well two in fact.

 

warriors do not own the stadium i assume, so if they're losing money, where do they play? hopefully they continue.

 

 

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1 minute ago, kev p said:

warriors do not own the stadium i assume, so if they're losing money, where do they play? hopefully they continue.

 

 

Go back and read my earlier posts on this subject rather than jumping in at the end.

 

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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On 01/07/2020 at 22:07, Padge said:

Because the NatWest bank insisted that two of the directors stepped down as a condition of extending the clubs overdraft facility after they had twice appeared in court accused of dodgy practices, something they did get off with but the bank wasn't happy and were insisting on a new board.

Dave Whelan wanted to buy CP and move Latics in with the Rugby Club, he wanted to redevelop the ground*. Robinson was adamant that this would not happen.  So to get himself out of the corner he had painted himself into his only recourse was to sell Central Park and move WIgan Rugby somewhere else, this way he could keep the club and ensure Latics never set foot on Central Park. 

Robinson hadn't a real plan, or clue, and eventually had to stand down and sell the club.

WIgan could have stayed at Central Park and had it redeveloped by Whelan but Robinson's pride would not allow it.

 

*I am not sure if this would have been acceptable to the council, a soccer stadium right in the town centre would be very difficult to police, especially as on soccer days you need segregation. I think Whelan knew this and just wanted the ground to flog off for a profit and his plan was always to have a new stadium for both. When the Council objected to his plans he would have had a scapegoat for getting shut of Central PArk.

 

 

And of course plans were published for the re-development of CP but never really stood a chance of being passed.(All the nearby street parking is now residents only).The site was sold to Tesco for I think£12m and the remainder after debts paid I presume went into the new stadium.This I think should be born in mind.The 15%owned by the council I have always thought was a Grant.(l’ll stand to be corrected on that)Hence the “dual purpose usage. I was told by an architect friend that the old SpionKop at CP was concrete laid on ashes and was starting to move.For that reason the ground capacity was reduced to under 20000. There comes a time when a decision has to be made.

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2 minutes ago, Padge said:

How does the rugby club fold, they have absolutely nothing to do with this. The rugby club has a stadium, well two in fact.

 

The rugby club wouldn't fold, but Wigan Athletic are owners of Wigan Football Company Ltd that own the stadium. The stadium loses £1.5m a year and is only propped up by loans from the parent company (or at least it was). If Wigan Athletic were to fold, the stadium company goes with it.

Wigan RL wouldn't buy the stadium because they couldn't cover the current losses, nevermind the losses they'd incur without professional football there. It's currently not worth anything to investors because of the covenants on the land. The council wouldn't operate it and incur the losses. They'd only buy it for redevelopment and remove the restrictions they put in place.

If the stadium ceased to operate then Wigan would have to find somewhere else to play initially, and would lose hundreds of thousands as a result. They have Orrell but it can't be developed into a Super League standard stadium. It may have value to be sold off as housing but there's a real issue with access which could put investors off, as there's only one narrow road to access it. You'd struggle to get 20 odd houses with only that access road. Robin Park is operated by Wigan RL but not owned. Developing it into a ground would presumably require council permission, which would no doubt require keeping the athletics facilities which would massively impact on the amount of space available to build, and so it's unlikely you'll get a big enough stadium on that land unless there was somewhere else in the town for athletics facilities to be built. And ultimately this might not be the best time to be trying to gather funds to finance a stadium. 

Wigan Athletic pretty much have to survive as a football league club for Wigan RL to survive as a competitive SL club. 

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3 minutes ago, EagleEyePie said:

The rugby club wouldn't fold, but Wigan Athletic are owners of Wigan Football Company Ltd that own the stadium. The stadium loses £1.5m a year and is only propped up by loans from the parent company (or at least it was). If Wigan Athletic were to fold, the stadium company goes with it.

Wigan RL wouldn't buy the stadium because they couldn't cover the current losses, nevermind the losses they'd incur without professional football there. It's currently not worth anything to investors because of the covenants on the land. The council wouldn't operate it and incur the losses. They'd only buy it for redevelopment and remove the restrictions they put in place.

If the stadium ceased to operate then Wigan would have to find somewhere else to play initially, and would lose hundreds of thousands as a result. They have Orrell but it can't be developed into a Super League standard stadium. It may have value to be sold off as housing but there's a real issue with access which could put investors off, as there's only one narrow road to access it. You'd struggle to get 20 odd houses with only that access road. Robin Park is operated by Wigan RL but not owned. Developing it into a ground would presumably require council permission, which would no doubt require keeping the athletics facilities which would massively impact on the amount of space available to build, and so it's unlikely you'll get a big enough stadium on that land unless there was somewhere else in the town for athletics facilities to be built. And ultimately this might not be the best time to be trying to gather funds to finance a stadium. 

Wigan Athletic pretty much have to survive as a football league club for Wigan RL to survive as a competitive SL club. 

The stadium company figures do not add up so I wouldn't take the figures at face value. As Wigan Athletic are the majority owners I have a lot of doubts about what is and isn't included and the amount of rent Wigan Athletic pay.

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3 minutes ago, Damien said:

The stadium company figures do not add up so I wouldn't take the figures at face value. As Wigan Athletic are the majority owners I have a lot of doubts about what is and isn't included and the amount of rent Wigan Athletic pay.

Fair point, but either way it's hard to see the stadium itself as profitable. There may be 'potential' from increasing events and holding concerts, but the fact that the only time there isn't sport being played there is when the pitch is relaid means there isn't the same opportunity for pop concerts like those held at Bolton's stadium. Neither club is likely to be able to increase rental payments, ticket sales aren't going to increase significantly and conference facilities won't bring in much money either. They've been unable to find a naming sponsor too. This is before you take the Covid pandemic issues into account.

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4 minutes ago, EagleEyePie said:

The rugby club wouldn't fold, but Wigan Athletic are owners of Wigan Football Company Ltd that own the stadium. The stadium loses £1.5m a year and is only propped up by loans from the parent company (or at least it was). If Wigan Athletic were to fold, the stadium company goes with it.

Wigan RL wouldn't buy the stadium because they couldn't cover the current losses, nevermind the losses they'd incur without professional football there. It's currently not worth anything to investors because of the covenants on the land. The council wouldn't operate it and incur the losses. They'd only buy it for redevelopment and remove the restrictions they put in place.

If the stadium ceased to operate then Wigan would have to find somewhere else to play initially, and would lose hundreds of thousands as a result. They have Orrell but it can't be developed into a Super League standard stadium. It may have value to be sold off as housing but there's a real issue with access which could put investors off, as there's only one narrow road to access it. You'd struggle to get 20 odd houses with only that access road. Robin Park is operated by Wigan RL but not owned. Developing it into a ground would presumably require council permission, which would no doubt require keeping the athletics facilities which would massively impact on the amount of space available to build, and so it's unlikely you'll get a big enough stadium on that land unless there was somewhere else in the town for athletics facilities to be built. And ultimately this might not be the best time to be trying to gather funds to finance a stadium. 

Wigan Athletic pretty much have to survive as a football league club for Wigan RL to survive as a competitive SL club. 

Once the stadium becomes of no value, it becomes worth a pound as a token payment.

Orrell is worth a lot of money, the access isn't an issue you do not have to stick with the same road infrastructure, there is always a way, and I have spoken to people who know a way.

Temporary stands at Robin Park can easily improve capacity, maybe not to what is really required but enough.

Enough of this nonsense though, the stadium loses money because of the enormous bills that soccer introduces without adequate crowds. The facilities available there are under used due to poor management of the stadium company and not Wigan Athletic, the plan will have always been the stadium makes a profit to subsidise the sport. Whelan lost the plot years ago when he got his premiership dream, when the dream turned into a nightmare,  he then realised how much money he was losing, he decide to get out.

The stadium running at a loss is more scary for an investor than the soccer club running at a loss, but anybody that looks seriously into it will realise that the stadium has undersold itself for years and has a lot more potential. That potential would be better understood if it sold itself as the home of Wigan Rugby rather than as the home of WIgan Athletic. Just a simple marketing tip free of charge.

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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2 minutes ago, Padge said:

Once the stadium becomes of no value, it becomes worth a pound as a token payment.

Orrell is worth a lot of money, the access isn't an issue you do not have to stick with the same road infrastructure, there is always a way, and I have spoken to people who know a way.

Temporary stands at Robin Park can easily improve capacity, maybe not to what is really required but enough.

Enough of this nonsense though, the stadium loses money because of the enormous bills that soccer introduces without adequate crowds. The facilities available there are under used due to poor management of the stadium company and not Wigan Athletic, the plan will have always been the stadium makes a profit to subsidise the sport. Whelan lost the plot years ago when he got his premiership dream, when the dream turned into a nightmare,  he then realised how much money he was losing, he decide to get out.

The stadium running at a loss is more scary for an investor than the soccer club running at a loss, but anybody that looks seriously into it will realise that the stadium has undersold itself for years and has a lot more potential. That potential would be better understood if it sold itself as the home of Wigan Rugby rather than as the home of WIgan Athletic. Just a simple marketing tip free of charge.

Orrell is worth £3 million based on the last accounts, but it's likely to generate less than that if it was actually sold. I'll take your word for it regarding access, but it's hard to see any other way of creating access other than through Edge Hall Road without demolishing houses. Still, the club won't raise anywhere near enough to finance a new stadium purely through the sale of Orrell.

Temporary stands at Robin Park would be a temporary solution.

The stadium would never have made enough profit to subsidise football. It would have to generate over £10 million to cover that alone. All it really has to make money are football and rugby income, pitch rental, conference facilities and income from bars/restaurants. It also faces competition from Bolton because the facilities available are just as good, if not better, and it's location is better for those travelling from out of town.

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If I was Wigan RL I'd buy the DW stadium. 

I would  then build a child care centre, mini Tesco, Kebab house and a strip club/pub... maximize revenue to its full potential. And cater for a vast amount of people.

Edited by Henson Park Old Firm
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8 hours ago, Henson Park Old Firm said:

If I was Wigan RL I'd buy the DW stadium. 

I would  then build a child care centre, mini Tesco, Kebab house and a strip club/pub... maximize revenue to its full potential. And cater for a vast amount of people.

You are confusing that with Headingly

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9 hours ago, Henson Park Old Firm said:

If I was Wigan RL I'd buy the DW stadium. 

I would  then build a child care centre, mini Tesco, Kebab house and a strip club/pub... maximize revenue to its full potential. And cater for a vast amount of people.

You are certainly trying to cater for all ages and the full spectrum of society. I'll give you that. Drop off the kids to child care, nip to the pub, then the strip club, get a kebab and get the kids from child care on the way home. Genius 😂

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13 hours ago, EagleEyePie said:

The rugby club wouldn't fold, but Wigan Athletic are owners of Wigan Football Company Ltd that own the stadium. The stadium loses £1.5m a year and is only propped up by loans from the parent company (or at least it was). If Wigan Athletic were to fold, the stadium company goes with it.

Wigan RL wouldn't buy the stadium because they couldn't cover the current losses, nevermind the losses they'd incur without professional football there. It's currently not worth anything to investors because of the covenants on the land. The council wouldn't operate it and incur the losses. They'd only buy it for redevelopment and remove the restrictions they put in place.

If the stadium ceased to operate then Wigan would have to find somewhere else to play initially, and would lose hundreds of thousands as a result. They have Orrell but it can't be developed into a Super League standard stadium. It may have value to be sold off as housing but there's a real issue with access which could put investors off, as there's only one narrow road to access it. You'd struggle to get 20 odd houses with only that access road. Robin Park is operated by Wigan RL but not owned. Developing it into a ground would presumably require council permission, which would no doubt require keeping the athletics facilities which would massively impact on the amount of space available to build, and so it's unlikely you'll get a big enough stadium on that land unless there was somewhere else in the town for athletics facilities to be built. And ultimately this might not be the best time to be trying to gather funds to finance a stadium. 

Wigan Athletic pretty much have to survive as a football league club for Wigan RL to survive as a competitive SL club. 

I am sure that they could become temporary co-tenants at LSV.


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1 hour ago, Damien said:

You are certainly trying to cater for all ages and the full spectrum of society. I'll give you that. Drop off the kids to child care, nip to the pub, then the strip club, get a kebab and get the kids from child care on the way home. Genius 😂

Suits the area its built in.

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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I don't really see how two clubs the size of Wigan and Wigan Athletic can't generate enough to ensure the stadium generates profits. The costs of the build are now irrelevant as presumably any remaining debts from its construction will be expunged if Wigan Athletic follow the administration process through to an obvious end. If it was bought by the RL club it would have to cover running costs+maintenance+cost of purchase(*); if retained by phoenix soccer club, likewise.

*-actually in Wigan RL's case it would be a question of whether owning the stadium would be more or less beneficial overall than renting it. Given they lose money in the current setup it's an interesting point.

On a wider point, is the commercial and corporate market in Wigan so weak that this isn't able to provide anything more than a token income stream?

Edited by M j M
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11 minutes ago, M j M said:

I don't really see how two clubs the size of Wigan and Wigan Athletic can't generate enough to ensure the stadium generates profits. The costs of the build are now irrelevant as presumably any remaining debts from its construction will be expunged if Wigan Athletic follow the administration process through to an obvious end. If it was bought by the RL club it would have to cover running costs+maintenance+cost of purchase(*); if retained by phoenix soccer club, likewise.

*-actually in Wigan RL's case it would be a question of whether owning the stadium would be more or less beneficial overall than renting it. Given they lose money in the current setup it's an interesting point.

On a wider point, is the commercial and corporate market in Wigan so weak that this isn't able to provide anything more than a token income stream?

Agree on your overall point - the new owners wouldn't have the same debt burden so the stadium could easily be profitable. 

But unsure why you say Wigan RL lose money on the stadium at the moment. If they're paying 10% of ticket revenues to hire the stadium they make a huge profit on match days, even without the non ticket revenues - the question is is there a model where they can make even more than currently by owning/controlling their own stadium. 

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6 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Agree on your overall point - the new owners wouldn't have the same debt burden so the stadium could easily be profitable. 

But unsure why you say Wigan RL lose money on the stadium at the moment. If they're paying 10% of ticket revenues to hire the stadium they make a huge profit on match days, even without the non ticket revenues - the question is is there a model where they can make even more than currently by owning/controlling their own stadium. 

I mean at the moment, as a business, the club loses money. If they bolted on the stadium to their business obviously the rent goes away and a bunch of new income streams - the catering, the non game-day corporate, the soccer club, open up as well as a lot of extra costs. In most situations (ignoring the vius impact) I'd be comfortable saying that this would undoubtedly be a beneficial position, if the price was reasonable and they could finance a purchase. But there may be something peculiar to Wigan that means it's not the case.

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My take on this is that although Latics may have been shafted by dodgy dealing as it has been alleged, they have treated rugby and the rugby club with overt contempt ever since they were in the premier league. Keep off our precious pitch, you can’t play your cup tie we have a wedding booked etc. Hence no RFL internationals, semi finals World Cup Games etc were held there. All of these would have been extra income for the football club/stadium company. No Latics wanted to play Billy Big.Balls and show Wigan RL that they called the tunes, whereas in reality they have always been second in the town.

i hope Wigan RL come out of this ok (this is from a dye in the wool saints fan) I think they will and any new owner hopefully will realise that welcomeing rugby is very good business in a town like Wigan

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