Ryan Sutton

[DoubleD]

35 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

I'm not so sure that it's down to the coaching.  I think, as has been mentioned, that it's down the the more intense higher standards of the NRL. There's more competition for places and the games are more intense week in week out. The players mentioned have to perform at their best every game and perform their skills under more pressure which will help improve the skills they already had. They will also pick up things from team mates and opposition players and adapt the way they play to make sure they get the edge over these players who, across the board, are of a higher quality than in SL

Generally I agree with this, but different environments suit different players. Plenty of NRL bred players have improved after coming to SL

[Lowdesert]

4 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

He still makes quite a few unforced errors in games i've seen of him down under

If he doesnt make a mistake or two in that environment hes a robot!

Without trying to derail the thread, he played more minutes than Thompson.

 

[Davo5]

2 hours ago, Manfred Mann said:

I note that you did not include Josh Hodgson in your question, because his improvement since he joined Canberra is beyond dispute.

Maybe I should not have mentioned skills and stuck to performance levels. John Bateman is now considered a super star in the NRL. He won the Dally M medal for second rower of the year in 2019. He is regularly interviewed on Australian rugby league television programs. He was not performing at that level when he played at Wigan. And I say that with no disrespect intended for Shaun Wane. But the physical  conditioning (because of facilities) and motivation levels (because of the coach) of Bateman and Sutton are clearly higher since they joined Canberra.

Rubbish,the only difference between Bateman at Wigan & Bateman at Canberra is his new teeth and Sutton is playing the same no nonsense style he played at Wigan.

[EagleEyePie]

Sutton was always a really good player at Wigan, it's just our style of play under Shaun Wane never allowed any prop to look good. Sutton makes good carries and is a decent ball player and can play good minutes. At Wigan the outside backs made the hard yards then the ball was shipped to the second rowers to make more metres. The props were there to tackle and while defence is a strength of Sutton's he never really got the opportunity to show what he was capable of going forward. Sutton also makes good post-contact metres (just under half of his metres made against the Titans were after contact), whereas Wane discouraged players from staying up and making metres after contact and instructed players to go down as quick as possible to get a quick play the ball.

[AB90]

In all occupations if you work with better more skilled people, in a tougher working environment, have a more challenging job, higher pressure to perform etc you will inevitably improve in your selected field. That goes for a rugby league player, a brick player, a lawyer etc.

[WN83]

2 hours ago, Manfred Mann said:

The improvement of Ryan Sutton since he joined Canberra is further  evidence of how British players who sign for NRL clubs, especially the better NRL clubs, can improve their playing skills and performance to a level not possible if they choose  to stay in England. Who can doubt that Josh Hodgson and John Bateman have improved to become international stars since they came under the coaching of RIcky Stuart. The same point should apply to French players.

I hope that a way can be found for Tommy Makinson, Alex Wamsley, Liam Watts, Tom Johnstone,  Dominic Manfredi, Mark Percival, Jonny Lomax, Tony Gigot, Theo Fages, Fouad Yaha, Benjamin Garcia, and 21 year old Arthur Mourgue to find serious playing contracts in the NRL

He’s just got himself in much better shape then he was at Wigan. I don’t see him doing anything differently then he did for us but he is doing things more often and at a higher intensity because his fitness will allow him to do that.

Bateman hasn’t improved at all from his time at Wigan. He was World Class for us and he’s World Class at Canberra. He didn’t go over there as a wet behind the ears kid with a game that needed work. He’s probably being allowed to play in a slightly different manner to how Wane asked him to play but not by much. 

[DavidM]

Wane getting mentioned in terms of Sutton and Bateman ... he’s gonna be coaching them for england !

[Scubby]

9 minutes ago, DavidM said:

Wane getting mentioned in terms of Sutton and Bateman ... he’s gonna be coaching them for england !

Throw in Williams too. If his form continues he will be pushing Blake Austin off the wing.

[DavidM]

2 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Throw in Williams too. If his form continues he will be pushing Blake Austin off the wing.

No way . One of Manfredi , Makinson , Johnstone , JMc ...and Austin 

[Rupert Prince]

3 hours ago, Manfred Mann said:

I note that you did not include Josh Hodgson in your question, because his improvement since he joined Canberra is beyond dispute.

Maybe I should not have mentioned skills and stuck to performance levels. John Bateman is now considered a super star in the NRL. He won the Dally M medal for second rower of the year in 2019. He is regularly interviewed on Australian rugby league television programs. He was not performing at that level when he played at Wigan. And I say that with no disrespect intended for Shaun Wane. But the physical  conditioning (because of facilities) and motivation levels (because of the coach) of Bateman and Sutton are clearly higher since they joined Canberra.

No.  Bateman was always a good player and improved at Wigan and became an international when playing at Wigan. He made an instant impact when he played Canberra, so training and conditioning is irrelevant.  Aussies underrate UK players and overrate their own.

[Dunbar]

18 minutes ago, WN83 said:

Bateman hasn’t improved at all from his time at Wigan. He was World Class for us and he’s World Class at Canberra. He didn’t go over there as a wet behind the ears kid with a game that needed work. He’s probably being allowed to play in a slightly different manner to how Wane asked him to play but not by much. 

I would agree with that. The best thing that Ricky Stuart has done is not to try and coach his unpredictably and unconventional style out of his game. Bateman is the type of player you just let play.

[AB90]

13 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I would agree with that. The best thing that Ricky Stuart has done is not to try and coach his unpredictably and unconventional style out of his game. Bateman is the type of player you just let play.

Bateman has improved. I think it's a bit niave people suggesting he hasn't. Proof will be in the pudding next SL season.

Look at his international performances for evidence. He's clearly England's best player at the moment and was during the 2019 GB tour.

Now look back at the 2018 series against the NZ - He wasn't even our best back rower let alone overall player.

I would say that's a fairly decent indication of improvement.

[Dunbar]

1 minute ago, AB90 said:

Bateman has improved. I think it's a bit niave people suggesting he hasn't. Proof will be in the pudding next SL season.

Look at his international performances for evidence. He's clearly England's best player at the moment and was during the 2019 GB tour.

Now look back at the 2018 series against the NZ - He wasn't even our best back rower let alone overall player.

I would say that's a fairly decent indication of improvement.

Again. Explain how he has improved. What is he doing now (or indeed doing better now) than he did at Wigan?

And please don't just say he is playing in a better competition and so he has inproved. That would be a fair argument if he had taken 10 or 12 weeks to get up to speed in the NRL but he was effective and clearly a class player from game 1 over there.

Here is a report of his first game which was described as a 'super impressive first up performance'.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/03/17/canberra-raiders-too-slick-for-gold-coast-titans-in-the-wet/

In order to have improved he should be doing things he couldn't do before he went over or indeed what he did from his first game. If you are able to describe these improvements then I will accept them.

[barnyia]

59 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

No.  Bateman was always a good player and improved at Wigan and became an international when playing at Wigan. He made an instant impact when he played Canberra, so training and conditioning is irrelevant.  Aussies underrated UK players and overrate their own.

Anybody seen/heard the matty johns podcast, speaking about how Trent Robinson gets assistant coaches that after working with him will or become good first grade coaches, matty johns  mentioned a couple and then Paul Kent said yes  he had the pommy bloke under him who as now gone on to become head coach of catalans, Paul Kent  couldn't even remember his name. 

[EagleEyePie]

Of course Bateman has improved. Pretty much every good player (particularly forwards) improves as they get older. What he hasn't done is improve beyond all expectations. He was the best player in Super League in 2018 (despite the man of steel going to Barba) and his first season for Canberra was a continuation of that form, with maybe a slight improvement here or there but nothing major. 

It's helped that he was playing in a better side at Canberra than he was the year before when at Wigan. In 2019 he was playing in a strong Canberra side whereas in 2018 Wigan weren't great until late on in the year and Bateman spent a lot of that time almost single-handedly keeping us in games. There were games where we'd be absolutely abysmal yet Bateman was putting in world class performances.

In the 2018 series against New Zealand he was impressive, but we were incredibly left edge dominated. That's just how Tomkins and Williams as the halfback pairing preferred to attack. Statistically Bateman was exactly what you'd expect from a top quality forward.

[Rupert Prince]

2 hours ago, EagleEyePie said:

Sutton was always a really good player at Wigan, it's just our style of play under Shaun Wane never allowed any prop to look good. Sutton makes good carries and is a decent ball player and can play good minutes. At Wigan the outside backs made the hard yards then the ball was shipped to the second rowers to make more metres. The props were there to tackle and while defence is a strength of Sutton's he never really got the opportunity to show what he was capable of going forward. Sutton also makes good post-contact metres (just under half of his metres made against the Titans were after contact), whereas Wane discouraged players from staying up and making metres after contact and instructed players to go down as quick as possible to get a quick play the ball.

I must say unfortunately that all of the above is fantasy.

[Mr Frisky]

4 hours ago, Manfred Mann said:

The improvement of Ryan Sutton since he joined Canberra is further  evidence of how British players who sign for NRL clubs, especially the better NRL clubs, can improve their playing skills and performance to a level not possible if they choose  to stay in England. Who can doubt that Josh Hodgson and John Bateman have improved to become international stars since they came under the coaching of RIcky Stuart. The same point should apply to French players.

I hope that a way can be found for Tommy Makinson, Alex Wamsley, Liam Watts, Tom Johnstone,  Dominic Manfredi, Mark Percival, Jonny Lomax, Tony Gigot, Theo Fages, Fouad Yaha, Benjamin Garcia, and 21 year old Arthur Mourgue to find serious playing contracts in the NRL

Who are we going to watch over here if they all go??

[AB90]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

Again. Explain how he has improved. What is he doing now (or indeed doing better now) than he did at Wigan?

And please don't just say he is playing in a better competition and so he has inproved. That would be a fair argument if he had taken 10 or 12 weeks to get up to speed in the NRL but he was effective and clearly a class player from game 1 over there.

Here is a report of his first game which was described as a 'super impressive first up performance'.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/03/17/canberra-raiders-too-slick-for-gold-coast-titans-in-the-wet/

In order to have improved he should be doing things he couldn't do before he went over or indeed what he did from his first game. If you are able to describe these improvements then I will accept them.

He was a great player before so there is nothing specific like 'a new left foot step or a big fend'. 

However, every aspect of his game would of increased that 2 to 5% extra. Hes a more sound tackler, improved his line running, physically stronger, better tackle breaker, removed the indiscipline from his game etc.

You may say, 'well, he was all those things at Wigan' (line running, tackling etc). Of course he was and he would of done that at Bradford and during his teenage days. But hes better now which you will see next year when he returns to SL.

Compare him to Elliot Whitehead. I think it's fair to say that Bateman is a better player than Whitehead. Well in 2018 he wasn't! Whitehead was hands down our player of the series against NZ in 2018. Since then, Whitehead hasn't declined and infact probably had his best year of his career in 2019. Surely that means Batemans improved if hes eclipsed him? Or am I missing something?

Now he may of improved at the same rate had he stayed at Wigan. I beg to differ.

 

 

[Dunbar]

14 minutes ago, AB90 said:

He was a great player before so there is nothing specific like 'a new left foot step or a big fend'. 

However, every aspect of his game would of increased that 2 to 5% extra. Hes a more sound tackler, improved his line running, physically stronger, better tackle breaker, removed the indiscipline from his game etc.

You may say, 'well, he was all those things at Wigan' (line running, tackling etc). Of course he was and he would of done that at Bradford and during his teenage days. But hes better now which you will see next year when he returns to SL.

Compare him to Elliot Whitehead. I think it's fair to says Bateman is a better player than Whitehead. Well in 2018 he wasn't! Whitehead was hands down our player of the series against NZ in 2018. Since then, Whitehead hasn't declined and infact probably had his best year of his career in 2019. Surely that means Batemans improved if hes eclipsed him? Or am I missing something?

Now he may of improved at the same rate had he stayed at Wigan. I beg to differ.

 

 

Again though, if playing in the NRL has improved Bateman, why was he so good from the moment he started.

After 6 rounds of 2019, Bateman was joint 3rd on the Dally M table.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/04/22/round-6-nrl-snapshot-plus-dally-m-votes-and-leaderboard/

This concept of him playing in the NRL improving him as a player should be evidenced by him improving the longer he played over there.  In reality, he was outstanding from his first game which logic dictates means he was already the quality player we see today.

With respect I think you are conflating his performances in the NRL with improvement. He is proving his quality, not improving. 

[JohnM]

2 hours ago, AB90 said:

In all occupations if you work with better more skilled people, in a tougher working environment, have a more challenging job, higher pressure to perform etc you will inevitably improve in your selected field. That goes for a rugby league player, a brick player, a lawyer etc.

Fully agree, which is why, for example, England V France internationals will eventually improve France's performance, but do nothing for England's

[JohnM]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

 

In order to have improved he should be doing things he couldn't do before he went over or indeed what he did from his first game. If you are able to describe these improvements then I will accept them.

He could be doing those good things more often. 

[Dunbar]

9 minutes ago, JohnM said:

He could be doing those good things more often. 

So is he? As I say, he was 3rd on the Dally M leaderboard after six games in his first season so is he doing more good things more often now?

[Curly perm]

5 hours ago, Manfred Mann said:

I hope that a way can be found for Tommy Makinson, Alex Wamsley, Liam Watts, Tom Johnstone,  Dominic Manfredi, Mark Percival, Jonny Lomax, Tony Gigot, Theo Fages, Fouad Yaha, Benjamin Garcia, and 21 year old Arthur Mourgue to find serious playing contracts in the NRL

Seems an odd statement to make...basically totally degrade our competition by sending all the top players to Australia, just to see a few players personally improve their skills? I love the NRL, it’s the top comp, but I want something worth watching over here. Are you a fan of a British club? 

[JohnM]

20 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

So is he? As I say, he was 3rd on the Dally M leaderboard after six games in his first season so is he doing more good things more often now?

Yes. 

[EagleEyePie]

1 hour ago, Rupert Prince said:

I must say unfortunately that all of the above is fantasy.

I must say it isn't