Not moaning but

[barnyia]

I call the catalans for not playing french players but due to covid and therefore a smaller budget mc namara won't have any choice but to play the french players, 3 injuries and he's down to having to play the french. It's difficult for toulouse as there's not many french players left who would be willing to go full time and travel. Especially the better elite players who get a decent wage for playing elite-1 and a job too.  Both the  catalans and toulouse are trying to get the cream of the young french talent with their rugby school academies etc. But they can't take all the better players in france from their original clubs or there'd be no competitive u19s teams or elite-1 teams. Just toulouse and catalans reserves and u19s playing all the finals etc 

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

7 hours ago, Cumbrian Mackem said:

It’s a strange one is the current Toulouse squad as you’d expect them to have between 25-30 players perhaps??

but having said that I’m sure they could just promote players from the elite 1 Toulouse side when needs be.

I'm not sure that you are taking adequately into account the different chronology of the English/European and domestic French seasons, CM.  The latter is drawing to a close, as they still play an Autumn to Spring season.

So, I would expect Toulouse, if needs be, to offer short contracts to some of the best of other Elite 1 clubs, to augment the Olympique side in the championship for a few months; in other words, continue the process begun with the signings of Gigot and Albert.

[meast]

Are any British clubs charged with "helping" the England/Wales/Scotland/Ireland/GB team? no.

Is the main reason the British clubs exist to develop players for the national teams? no.

So why are French clubs expected to forego winning things over developing the French national team?

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, meast said:

Are any British clubs charged with "helping" the England/Wales/Scotland/Ireland/GB team? no.

Is the main reason the British clubs exist to develop players for the national teams? no.

So why are French clubs expected to forego winning things over developing the French national team?

Actually, this is a fan complaining about a French club not playing enough French players. 

There are many posts over the year about British clubs not having enough English players. There are many posts about clubs not releasing players for internationals. There are many posts about British clubs signing overseas players instead of using young local lads. 

So this individual complaint was about a French team, but there are many identical complaints about British teams. 

This kind of thing gets held up as an example of French teams being treated poorly, but it's actually an example of them being treated exactly the same. 

[Padge]

Northern Union used Scottish, Welsh, Kiwi, Aussie and anywhere else they could find players to build the best teams they could to compete. Why are Catalan and Toulouse any different.

This obsession with French teams must use French players is an utter joke. If rubbish English clubs can't compete then tough sheet, get your own house in order to be able to compete and stop worrying about what others are doing.

Its professional sport, that means you pay for the best you can, regardless. 

[RP London]

8 hours ago, Padge said:

Northern Union used Scottish, Welsh, Kiwi, Aussie and anywhere else they could find players to build the best teams they could to compete. Why are Catalan and Toulouse any different.

This obsession with French teams must use French players is an utter joke. If rubbish English clubs can't compete then tough sheet, get your own house in order to be able to compete and stop worrying about what others are doing.

Its professional sport, that means you pay for the best you can, regardless. 

In fact its almost the whole basis of why the sport was formed.. 

For the clubs it was to be able to keep the best players who may not have played if they were not paid or may have moved to somewhere where there was a "job on offer" that would give them time off to play and train (this didn't just start post war with union they'd been doing it from the start).. for the players it was different but for the clubs it was about being the best club and keeping your best players. 

[Omott91]

21 hours ago, Cumbrian Mackem said:

8 of the Toulouse matchday 17 were French born players in their emphatic 70-0 drubbing of Widnes yesterday afternoon.

The cynic and realist in me tells me that sadly this number will again decrease even further if and when Toulouse reach super league. Is this and would this be acceptable for most RL fans especially those of us who are ardent expansionists??

And before anyone has a pop at me let me be clear that I support the inclusion of French teams into super league and the championship to the point that I’d love to see maybe another 1 or 2 French teams enter the championship from big major cities like Marseille, Montpelier or Lyon etc.

Not a criticism but as an outsider this is such a Uk centric point of view. Even to question their worth seems ludicrous to me as I've never once seen or heard any discussion surrounding what the NZ Warriors bring to the game and their worth to the Nrl.

Toulouse are doing great work and are long overdue for a Super league place. The overall game will be better for it. 

[MrPosh]

21 hours ago, Cumbrian Mackem said:

Maybe a quota needs to be introduced. Take the decision and easy option out of the hands of both Catalan and Toulouse.

I like this idea.

Three French players to be in every Super League and Championship match day squad. That would mean each club carrying five or six across the whole squad.

[gingerjon]

9 hours ago, Dave T said:

it's actually an example of them being treated exactly the same. 

Which is problematic given that their circumstances are entirely different

[Robin Evans]

Dear Ken

If fev win the grand final can you promote toulouse too.... cos its a great fixture in a great city and a fabulous cub.... and I'm a selfish bug ger.

Thanks

R

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Which is problematic given that their circumstances are entirely different

Meh, you're being a smarty pants. The point is they are being judged on using local players, just like all the other clubs do too. 

The frustrating thing is that if people were prepared to discuss this kind of thing sensibly there is a decent discussion to be had. I think it's reasonable that people don't want to go down the route of some other teams in the past where they become a home for a squad full of Aussies who come and go, but it is also unreasonable to expect a French team to pack themselves with lesser quality French players and hamper themselves versus their English opponents. 

I often make the point that SL is all about wanting the strongest players and teams, it's entertainment, long term investment in player development and onerous rules on this can conflict with that. 

I much prefer incentivising clubs rather than demanding it. 

[Robin Evans]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

 

I much prefer incentivising clubs rather than demanding it. 

Yes. 

[gingerjon]

13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Meh, you're being a smarty pants. The point is they are being judged on using local players, just like all the other clubs do too. 

I know. It's my defining characteristic.

Anyway, I get quite achingly bored with the discussion about local players because it seems to invariably ending up with sad old men pontificating about which streets in Billinge Wigan are allowed to claim as being local.

What I think we'd all like to see is players *from anywhere* being developed and given the chance to play at a senior level. I'd have no problem with Toulouse setting up a camp in, say, West Cumbria every summer and offering scholarships to a bunch of teenagers from there. (I mean, they shouldn't do this but insisting on local, local, local does rather limit any options for either really growing the player pool and/or expanding the games geographical footprint).

[RP London]

correct me if i am wrong.. they are subject to the same quota rules as everyone else so their ability to be packed full of aussies is the same as everyone else's (and some British clubs do this). 

next few years may see changes with the number of English players out there too with work permits etc (and French players in the English clubs too) so this may correct itself in that way. 

I don't have an issue with the way it is at the moment.. as long as the players they bring in are buying into the long term aim (going into schools, "being French" etc etc) then they can really enhance a club.

[Cumbrian Mackem]

1 hour ago, MrPosh said:

I like this idea.

Three French players to be in every Super League and Championship match day squad. That would mean each club carrying five or six across the whole squad.

Sarcasm aside I’d love there to be 3 French born players in every super league and championship squad like there seems to be in the NRL and Queensland/NSW cup with kiwis.

[Omott91]

6 minutes ago, Cumbrian Mackem said:

Sarcasm aside I’d love there to be 3 French born players in every super league and championship squad like there seems to be in the NRL and Queensland/NSW cup with kiwis.

How do you get to that point? By having strong clubs in the best competition that being Toulouse and Catalan in Super league.   

[Cumbrian Mackem]

1 hour ago, Omott91 said:

Not a criticism but as an outsider this is such a Uk centric point of view. Even to question their worth seems ludicrous to me as I've never once seen or heard any discussion surrounding what the NZ Warriors bring to the game and their worth to the Nrl.

Toulouse are doing great work and are long overdue for a Super league place. The overall game will be better for it. 

Why would anybody question what the warriors bring to the NRL when they produce junior players not only for themselves but for other NRL every year.

They also bring a TV contract to the table as well if I’m not mistaken?

[Cumbrian Mackem]

8 minutes ago, Omott91 said:

How do you get to that point? By having strong clubs in the best competition that being Toulouse and Catalan in Super league.   

You get to that point by limiting the number of bog standard average NRL rejects and English players able to either play in a matchday 17 or sign a contract in the dragons or Toulouse 30 man squad.

Unfortunately not many French players have shown a true willingness to join English based super league and championship clubs.

[Henson Park Old Firm]

Man City only have three Englishmen....... so no big deal 

[RP London]

17 minutes ago, Cumbrian Mackem said:

You get to that point by limiting the number of bog standard average NRL rejects and English players able to either play in a matchday 17 or sign a contract in the dragons or Toulouse 30 man squad.

Unfortunately not many French players have shown a true willingness to join English based super league and championship clubs.

on the first point if that club does not hold its own in super league or do something special in the cup etc then it doesnt get the push through in the media or the social consciousness to really drive those players to want to play etc

By limiting the number of players that can help them, through their "bog standard" experience of playing at that level, understand what it takes to do this in the early years you can cause problems. Get them up, give them some years to bed in and bring through the juniors etc and then you may be onto something. At the moment you seem to want them to run before they can walk. 

As long as the players buy into the culture then the club will grow and that will reap its rewards later.. 

Put a load of french players in now and the club sinks then there is absolutely no point in it whatsoever and it will be an utter waste of time and to the detriment of a long term aim to get French players through.

(this is the same theory with the Melbourne Storm... money buying success which means that they can start to build RL in victoria.. whether it is getting that cut through at the moment is debatable but its a long term project, as is france).

[Eddie]

2 hours ago, MrPosh said:

I like this idea.

Three French players to be in every Super League and Championship match day squad. That would mean each club carrying five or six across the whole squad.

3 French, 2 Southerners, 1 Serbian and 1 Greek (not Aussie Greek or Serb) - # grow the game. 

[Cumbrian Mackem]

4 minutes ago, RP London said:

on the first point if that club does not hold its own in super league or do something special in the cup etc then it doesnt get the push through in the media or the social consciousness to really drive those players to want to play etc

By limiting the number of players that can help them, through their "bog standard" experience of playing at that level, understand what it takes to do this in the early years you can cause problems. Get them up, give them some years to bed in and bring through the juniors etc and then you may be onto something. At the moment you seem to want them to run before they can walk. 

As long as the players buy into the culture then the club will grow and that will reap its rewards later.. 

Put a load of french players in now and the club sinks then there is absolutely no point in it whatsoever and it will be an utter waste of time and to the detriment of a long term aim to get French players through.

(this is the same theory with the Melbourne Storm... money buying success which means that they can start to build RL in victoria.. whether it is getting that cut through at the moment is debatable but its a long term project, as is france).

15 years the dragons have been in super league now. How much longer are we to wait??

Also like I keep saying the players are already there but don’t get a look in because it’s easier and more lazy to bring in a dozen overseas players which the majority are average standard NRL or English/British super league players .

[Robin Evans]

5 minutes ago, Cumbrian Mackem said:

15 years the dragons have been in super league now. How much longer are we to wait??

Also like I keep saying the players are already there but don’t get a look in because it’s easier and more lazy to bring in a dozen overseas players which the majority are average standard NRL or English/British super league players .

Your going round in circles cocker.

How long does the English club game go before we have an all English squad. Sign up those amateurs on pro forms.... cos there's English lads not getting a look in cos of aussies.

Of course that'll weaken the competition considerably but I'm assuming you're OK wi that?

[RP London]

1 minute ago, Cumbrian Mackem said:

15 years the dragons have been in super league now. How much longer are we to wait??

Also like I keep saying the players are already there but don’t get a look in because it’s easier and more lazy to bring in a dozen overseas players which the majority are average standard NRL or English/British super league players .

15 years is not that long, it is a generation of players from start to finish and in that generation you may only get 1-2 anyway that break through. 

what you need to look at is below the super league squad.. is the game stronger, is elite 1 stronger etc.. 

if all you ever do is look at the top club then you will miss so much, you will also miss the basic premise that even top clubs go through cycles.. 

I would love to see more french given a chance instead of some of the english or NRL stars.. but i also trust the coaches to know what they are doing and trust what they are seeing on the training pitches etc to know.. i am sure the owners of tolouse would love to see more french stars but they also NEED the club to be in super league for profile, money, sponsorship etc, all of which can then be driven further into bringing young players through.

[Cumbrian Mackem]

1 minute ago, Robin Evans said:

Your going round in circles cocker.

How long does the English club game go before we have an all English squad. Sign up those amateurs on pro forms.... cos there's English lads not getting a look in cos of aussies.

Of course that'll weaken the competition considerably but I'm assuming you're OK wi that?

Where did I mention that English clubs should have an “all English squad”?
 

The overwhelming majority of English super league sides should have both a majority British born squad and matchday 17 and the French teams should have both a majority French born squad and matchday 17.

No “going round in circles “ here marra. No confusion at all cocker.