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Attendances (Multiple Merged Threads)


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30 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Having been to visit Darlo and knowing the story intimately I don´t need a lecture thanks. I was asked for an example where going to a larger ground had hurt the club, I gave one. If you actually have anything useful to add to this discussion I´d be happy to hear it. 

That wasn't quite the example I wanted, after all Salford moving to Barton has hurt them.

I wanted an example where a club has downsized and kept the existing fan base. I'm pretty sure there are examples like Oldham RLFC where moves to smaller stadia have coincided with significant drops in attendance.

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25 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

If people make bad faith arguments or add nothing, I won´t waste time on it. If I say I think that long term Salford are probably not for SL and someone who usually responds to debates on a forum stating "what would you do then?" (thus missing the point of a forum) then uses two games this season as if that´s a "gotcha" moment, I won´t waste time on people who wont or cant read. 

 

Tsk tsk, Shropshire. 

I would ask you to wait before prematurely emasculating SRD's future. 

They are leaving the AJ Bell. It's end is nigh.

It probably will be Moor Lane.

Let us wait until the fine details are agreed on what that might be.

To reiterate, the club want to expand the ground probably up to 8,000. 

Thus on the adequate size of the land, they need space for another 3,000 or so.

Add then corporate/hospitality (The Lance Todd Suite anyone?), and new floodlights.

Add a 3g pitch.

Same then as York or London, better than Cas, Wakey or Bradford. And a mere couple of miles/kms from Manchester city centre. Well as about the same as the Bernabeu is to the centre of Madrid. 

A tidy little ground I expect.  The future should be OK. 

 

Edited by idrewthehaggis
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39 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

This is why I put you on mute in the first place, thanks for adding nothing to the debate. Back on mute. 

Thinnest skinned bull ever?

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26 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

If people make bad faith arguments or add nothing, I won´t waste time on it. If I say I think that long term Salford are probably not for SL and someone who usually responds to debates on a forum stating "what would you do then?" (thus missing the point of a forum) then uses two games this season as if that´s a "gotcha" moment, I won´t waste time on people who wont or cant read. 

 

None of those things you describe relate to me. I simply disagreed with your point in a respectful manner. 

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I recall reading Shropshire Bull call Wigan one of superleagues three problem children, along with Huddersfield and Salford when it came to attendances and I nearly fell off my chair but after looking at the thoughts on crowds recently it would seem that is down to the amount of empty seats we have in the stadium and not the actual crowds and I do get it to a point. I think we can overly focus on the amount of empty seats over the actual crowds that are turning up but you do have to try your best to give a certain perception to TV audiences and I don't think all clubs do enough.

I look at Wigan in particular as I know the set up of the ground and how both clubs have allocated the seating over the years and I think we need a shift in how we're setting the ground up and have done for a while. I see the North Stand open for 95%+ of games and don't understand why. It needs to be open for Saints games and possibly the odd Warrington one (and Leigh games when they're in Superleague) but in the main I would be putting the away fans in the East Stand facing the cameras. I'd do it for that tv perception but also for atmosphere. Ideally I'd like for away fans to be housed at the South end of that East stand and they would then be sandwiched between home supporters in the East stand and then fans in the South Stand. Yes they would then need fans of both clubs to share facilities but it isn't a problem at Saints, Leeds, Cas, Wakefield, Catalans etc, so I don't see why it's a problem for us.

It's a quick win that would improve the look of the games on the TV and it would improve the atmosphere ten fold and for the games that need it the most (i.e non Saints/Warrington games). 

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1 hour ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I don't think this holds up to scrutiny, a big stadium often encourages people to attend. This doesn't mean it's always a better scenario. Take the time Wales got 17,000 at the Millenium Stadium in 2000, it looked dreadful on TV but had they held it at a much smaller stadium they almost certainly wouldn't have got near 17,000.

If Salford move to a 5000 stadium, they're done as a SL club. The idea that they'll pack it out is wishful thinking. It will just make them appear even more small time and crowds will drop further. I do have some sympathy for them as their move from Weaste has been a disaster, but they need to be in at least a 10,000 stadium.

We have numerous examples where a better, larger stadium has increased attendances even when it's resulted in a lot of empty seats. Take Hull FC, their stadium was half full at the weekend but I can remember a SL season opener not that long ago when a crowd of 6,000 for an opener was seen as a real boost.

I can't think of a single example where the reverse has happened.

Have you consulted a single Salford fan before reaching this conclusion? 
 

I must say my favourite genre on here is telling fans what they supposedly think about their own clubs. 

Edited by Ray Cashmere
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Ray if he did he would know with those apparently bigger SL advertising hoardings it is actually 4,800.

Fella you know on the SRD fan's forum one contributor (JJR i think) is expressing his concerns about Moor Lane aa much as any on here. 

As I said, I think need to wait till we know more. FCUM - whose are probably smaller than SRD- managed to built a neat, tidy ground from scratch. Their example is SRD's to build on. Government grants, local authority developmental funds. Sports England, fans's Bonds or Club loans.

Surely it is possible to extend the ground by a mere 3000 and make it "tidy." That is all that is needed. 

Anyway I do recall a day with equally dismal weather. Couple of years ago and the Heavens opened. A mere 1900 turned up to see Huddersfield beat Salford. Even 2/3 or so of season ticket holders bailed out. It was the game that convinced Koukash to give it up.

So you know 4003 is a base and I expect that to rise this season.

Edited by idrewthehaggis
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8 hours ago, Eddie said:

That’s ok, if they sold out 5,100 every week it would be bouncing in there, loads better than where they are currently. 

Or they could aspire to get 7-8k in the smallish stadium they were given or maybe following some posters logic move to Eccles maybe & play on a roped off field,I’m sure a couple of thousands will make it banging.

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2 hours ago, Dave T said:

People are not stupid. They know a small club when they see them playing in a 5k stadium. 

And a stadium like Moor Lane has no place in a comp like Superleague & smacks of small time aspirations,even with 5k in.

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21 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Or they could aspire to get 7-8k in the smallish stadium they were given or maybe following some posters logic move to Eccles maybe & play on a roped off field,I’m sure a couple of thousands will make it banging.

I’m certain that they would love to get 7-8k every game at the AJ Bell. How do you suggest they do that? 

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1 hour ago, Ray Cashmere said:

Have you consulted a single Salford fan before reaching this conclusion? 
 

I must say my favourite genre on here is telling fans what they supposedly think about their own clubs. 

Why would Salford fans be any different than fans of other clubs?

The sort of fan that comes on here isn't your atypical fan, so it doesn't really matter what they would prefer. Take my example about Hull, they effectively doubled their attendances when they moved from the Boulevard but I bet every single Hull fan on here used to go the Boulevard as well. Therefore, they aren't the sorts of fans that will affect the success or not of a move.

I'm not making a scientific argument based on my opinion of Salford, I'm suggesting that in my opinion if any club downsizes their stadium significantly their crowds will downsize also. I've heard it mentioned before that Wigan could move to a purpose built 10,000 stadium and my argument would be the same then, their 12,000 or so regular fans wouldn't instantly sell it out every week, they'd end up regularly falling short of the 10,000.

Salford is a slightly different case in that their stadium move hasn't resulted in an improved situation from the Willows, and I can see the appeal in thinking if we can get that 4,500 average into a 5,000 stadium then it would make for a nice atmosphere and look better etc but IMO it would result in an even further reduced average that in the end would remove any existing viability as a SL club.

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24 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I’m certain that they would love to get 7-8k every game at the AJ Bell. How do you suggest they do that? 

That is of course extremely difficult and the AJ Bell has been something of a disaster, but the idea they could get 5,000 or so bouncing at Moor Lane is also significantly flawed and could even be worse for them long term.

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1 hour ago, Maximus Decimus said:

That is of course extremely difficult and the AJ Bell has been something of a disaster, but the idea they could get 5,000 or so bouncing at Moor Lane is also significantly flawed and could even be worse for them long term.

Could be, but they have a chance there, whereas from the outside it looks like things are going backwards at the current ground. 

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3 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

That wasn't quite the example I wanted, after all Salford moving to Barton has hurt them.

I wanted an example where a club has downsized and kept the existing fan base. I'm pretty sure there are examples like Oldham RLFC where moves to smaller stadia have coincided with significant drops in attendance.

But weren´t Ildhams problems caused by leaving their old ground into a bigger stadium at boundary park in the first place. 

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1 hour ago, Maximus Decimus said:

That is of course extremely difficult and the AJ Bell has been something of a disaster, but the idea they could get 5,000 or so bouncing at Moor Lane is also significantly flawed and could even be worse for them long term.

Sale Rugby Union do ok at the AJ Bell Stadium and Salford FC obviously think it’ll be a success there as they are looking to take over the stadium. Salford Reds blaming the stadium is a poor excuse.

Moor Lane is not suitable for Super League. If Salford want to be a Championship club fair enough move to Moor Lane, if they want to stay in Super League it is not suitable.

Edited by Sir Kevin Sinfield
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3 hours ago, WN83 said:

I recall reading Shropshire Bull call Wigan one of superleagues three problem children, along with Huddersfield and Salford when it came to attendances and I nearly fell off my chair but after looking at the thoughts on crowds recently it would seem that is down to the amount of empty seats we have in the stadium and not the actual crowds and I do get it to a point. I think we can overly focus on the amount of empty seats over the actual crowds that are turning up but you do have to try your best to give a certain perception to TV audiences and I don't think all clubs do enough.

I look at Wigan in particular as I know the set up of the ground and how both clubs have allocated the seating over the years and I think we need a shift in how we're setting the ground up and have done for a while. I see the North Stand open for 95%+ of games and don't understand why. It needs to be open for Saints games and possibly the odd Warrington one (and Leigh games when they're in Superleague) but in the main I would be putting the away fans in the East Stand facing the cameras. I'd do it for that tv perception but also for atmosphere. Ideally I'd like for away fans to be housed at the South end of that East stand and they would then be sandwiched between home supporters in the East stand and then fans in the South Stand. Yes they would then need fans of both clubs to share facilities but it isn't a problem at Saints, Leeds, Cas, Wakefield, Catalans etc, so I don't see why it's a problem for us.

It's a quick win that would improve the look of the games on the TV and it would improve the atmosphere ten fold and for the games that need it the most (i.e non Saints/Warrington games). 

I did indeed call Wigan a problem child, I guess that came from them being in the 15k average when I started watching League as a kid early 2000´s (back when I hated Bradford as it turns out, now it´s just sympathy). My fear for Wigan is that it reaches a tipping point where the amount of empty spaces disincentivises people to go. 

I like the idea of sticking all fans in front of the camera, league is supposed to be desegregated anyway so getting them all next to eachother can only help. 

I think on balance I agree with @Ray Cashmere, I´m not trying to put a positive spin on it but a facility that you can sweat every day and attract people to as a ´fresh start´I think can work. Me and Maximus disagree but that´s fair enough. We´ve got Wakey and Salford I think improving their position. Cas maybe soon and a host of clubs in suitable grounds for the level above (Fev, York, Newcastle, Leigh).

 

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16 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Sale Rugby Union do ok at the AJ Bell Stadium and Salford FC obviously think it’ll be a success there as they are looking to take over the stadium. Salford Reds blaming the stadium is a poor excuse.

Moor Lane is not suitable for Super League. If Salford want to be a Championship club fair enough move to Moor Lane, if they want to stay in Super League it is not suitable.

What should they do then? As well as criticising have you got a solution for their problem? 

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4 hours ago, idrewthehaggis said:

Tsk tsk, Shropshire. 

I would ask you to wait before prematurely emasculating SRD's future. 

They are leaving the AJ Bell. It's end is nigh.

It probably will be Moor Lane.

Let us wait until the fine details are agreed on what that might be.

To reiterate, the club want to expand the ground probably up to 8,000. 

Thus on the adequate size of the land, they need space for another 3,000 or so.

Add then corporate/hospitality (The Lance Todd Suite anyone?), and new floodlights.

Add a 3g pitch.

Same then as York or London, better than Cas, Wakey or Bradford. And a mere couple of miles/kms from Manchester city centre. Well as about the same as the Bernabeu is to the centre of Madrid. 

A tidy little ground I expect.  The future should be OK. 

 

Yes but there is a metro that drops anyone outside the stadium for 1.20 and is incredibly well connected transport link. I am not emasculating SRD, I just think they have consistently been one of the lowest averaging clubs who have been protected from a genuine relegation fight for two years. 

The 3G pitch is the most important part of that to begin with, getting that thing is use round the clock. If that is all Salford get and were averaging 3-3,500 in the champ that would still be a better contribution to the game but I´m confident the move will benefit them. 

A small silver lining if Toulouse go down is it will give Salford and Wakey the year they need to fully exploit their ´new´ stadiums, especially for Wakey and be viable outside of SL were they to go down, which has to be the aim for that aren´t the big Eng 5. 

Edited by ShropshireBull
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Just now, johnh1 said:

How have Salford been ‘protected’ from a relegation fight?

Indeed, in the last few years they've had a Grand Final and a Challenge Cup Final appearance, if anything they've been unlucky that Covid has prevented them being able to capitalise on it. 

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4 hours ago, idrewthehaggis said:

Tsk tsk, Shropshire. 

I would ask you to wait before prematurely emasculating SRD's future. 

They are leaving the AJ Bell. It's end is nigh.

It probably will be Moor Lane.

Let us wait until the fine details are agreed on what that might be.

To reiterate, the club want to expand the ground probably up to 8,000. 

Thus on the adequate size of the land, they need space for another 3,000 or so.

Add then corporate/hospitality (The Lance Todd Suite anyone?), and new floodlights.

Add a 3g pitch.

Same then as York or London, better than Cas, Wakey or Bradford. And a mere couple of miles/kms from Manchester city centre. Well as about the same as the Bernabeu is to the centre of Madrid. 

A tidy little ground I expect.  The future should be OK. 

 

How will Salford pay for the expansion of Moor Lane? They won’t even own the ground will they? If Salford can afford to pay for Moor Lane to be expanded I’m sure they could afford to pay the rent at the AJ Bell Stadium 

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2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Indeed, in the last few years they've had a Grand Final and a Challenge Cup Final appearance, if anything they've been unlucky that Covid has prevented them being able to capitalise on it. 

Exactly Dave. Thank you. It’s just a shame that Shropshire Bull and SKS have this vendetta against Salford.

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27 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

I did indeed call Wigan a problem child, I guess that came from them being in the 15k average when I started watching League as a kid early 2000´s (back when I hated Bradford as it turns out, now it´s just sympathy). My fear for Wigan is that it reaches a tipping point where the amount of empty spaces disincentivises people to go. 

I like the idea of sticking all fans in front of the camera, league is supposed to be desegregated anyway so getting them all next to eachother can only help. 

I think on balance I agree with @Ray Cashmere, I´m not trying to put a positive spin on it but a facility that you can sweat every day and attract people to as a ´fresh start´I think can work. Me and Maximus disagree but that´s fair enough. We´ve got Wakey and Salford I think improving their position. Cas maybe soon and a host of clubs in suitable grounds for the level above (Fev, York, Newcastle, Leigh).

 

I think the crowds you speak of were in the middle of a real boom for us. There were averages of less than 10,000 twice in the three years prior to moving to the DW in late 1999 (it went as low as 8,800 in 1997) and it took until 2004 before we averaged above 11,500.
 

It was a funny quirk that it took us hitting rock bottom on the field in 2005 and 2006 for people to galvanise behind the club and the averages jumped up above 14,000 and kept going up until 2011 when they peaked at just over 16,000.  Those crowds were built on good marketing but also a bit of a perfect storm of hitting rock bottom, fighting back and building slowly but with a real peak of Maguire taking over and fans starved of success loving how we were playing. 
 

They’ve declined gradually since then but I wouldn’t use that 15k mark as a realistic mark of what is a success for us. The great Wigan sides of the late 80’s to mid 90’s never averaged above 15,000 and that says a lot. I think success for us is to get the averages back up to 13,000-14,000. We’re a way off that at the minute but if we can keep playing some good stuff it’s achievable.

 

In the short term we really should sort the positioning of the away fans out and make the place feel more atmospheric. 

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6 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

How will Salford pay for the expansion of Moor Lane? They won’t even own the ground will they? If Salford can afford to pay for Moor Lane to be expanded I’m sure they could afford to pay the rent at the AJ Bell Stadium 

Are you sure, do you have access to their finances? If they have some money to spend they’re better off improving a ground that they can call their own and is in a better location than spending it on rent. 

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