Quick check re scrum rule

[iangidds]

Is the ball live once it passes the 2nd rows feet in a scrum or only when the ball leaves the scrum ?

[Dunbar]

Ball in Play 9. To be in play, the ball must emerge from the scrum after first emerging from between and behind the inner feet of the second row forwards.

If the ball does not emerge correctly and the fault cannot be attributed to any one team then it should be put into the scrum once again.

https://www.rugby-league.com/governance/rules-and-regulations/laws-of-the-game

[Tubby]

If the loose forward has his foot on the ball, it's still in.

[sentoffagain2]

  Been a breath of fresh air having scums back.It enables players to be creative.How good was the try from the scrum in the State of Origin game.The defenders never laid a hand on him.

[RP London]

26 minutes ago, sentoffagain2 said:

  Been a breath of fresh air having scums back.It enables players to be creative.How good was the try from the scrum in the State of Origin game.The defenders never laid a hand on him.

I'd like a few coaches to look at that... full back in at 13 for NSW overshoots because his "job" is to get straight back to his position at full back rather than reacting to play (brain fade moment).. happens loads with putting random positions into the scrum and think loads can be made from those situations, just catching them slightly off guard. 

[barnyia]

When it passes the second rows back foot, if the 13 traps the ball with his foot it's classes as being out of the scrum, as the lock can pick  the ball up or pass the ball,

[Tubby]

31 minutes ago, barnyia said:

When it passes the second rows back foot, if the 13 traps the ball with his foot it's classes as being out of the scrum, as the lock can pick  the ball up or pass the ball,

I thought the ball had to pass the 13's feet.  If he traps it, it's not out.  But I'm quite prepared to concede if you know that to be the case.

[The Blues Ox]

Rule posted above by Dunbar. If loose traps it then it should be called out as the ball is in play as soon as he/she comes in to contact with it. It does seem to be a rule that some refs are interpreting differently though.

[Oxford]

2 hours ago, The Blues Ox said:

It does seem to be a rule that some refs are interpreting differently though.

Surely not!

[DavidM]

Interesting , you see refs telling packs not to break while the lock is holding the ball in  , but I’ve also heard that it just has to clear the second row … so not sure 

[Oxford]

Rugby League:

A game where Refs are sure of the Rules.

Where fans are not so sure,

Where refs apply them differently,

Where fans shout abuse at the ref cos he made a decision on a rule they themselves were unsure of,

Where pundits take sides over a rule they knew less about than the fans

where summariser former players spend all their time pontificating about rules they only understood enough to know they were breaking them and deciding getting caught once in a blue moon was worth the risk.

"Blow that whistle Ref!

 

[Archie Gordon]

Ball is in play only when it emerges from the scrum via the SRs (a necessary but not sufficient condition).

It is not in play if the LF holds it in there with his feet (because it has not emerged). It is in play if LF breaks off the scrum once it has passed the SRs (because the LF breaking off means the ball has emerged). 

[barnyia]

It has to be the second row who traps the ball or the ball is out, watch the NRL when they hold the ball in the scrum to give the scrum half the time to choose a side of the scrum to create a 4v3 before the lock/hooker makes the pass. 

 

[barnyia]

In union it's the lock as they used to do the old push the scrum and the lock used to tap the ball along with his feet, 

[Archie Gordon]

2 minutes ago, barnyia said:

It has to be the second row who traps the ball or the ball is out, watch the NRL when they hold the ball in the scrum to give the scrum half the time to choose a side of the scrum to create a 4v3 before the lock/hooker makes the pass. 

 

That is how it works in practice; entirely consistent with the laws of the game.

[bobbruce]

5 hours ago, Tubby said:

I thought the ball had to pass the 13's feet.  If he traps it, it's not out.  But I'm quite prepared to concede if you know that to be the case.

That’s what I thought unless the loose forward breaks from the scrum to pick the ball up as soon as he does that the ball is out. 

[TBone]

Quote

To be in play, the ball must emerge from the scrum after first emerging from between and behind the inner feet of the second row forwards.

This does not say that the ball is out of the scrum WHEN it emerges from between and behind the inner feet of the second row forwards. Only that it has to emerge from the scrum only AFTER passing between their feet etc.

[iangidds]

Not sure if im any the wiser after those comments

[dboy]

Refs do seem to be incorrectly calling the ball "in", when the LF has it trapped. I can live with that if done consistently.

The problem is the LFs are often not bound (stood up from the scrum), and the ball is therefore "out".

[Griff]

2 hours ago, iangidds said:

Not sure if im any the wiser after those comments

Dunbar quoted the law, just read it and decide whether that's the ruling or whether the barrack room lawyers are right.

[George Watt]

4 hours ago, Griff said:

Dunbar quoted the law, just read it and decide whether that's the ruling or whether the barrack room lawyers are right.

I wonder what the barrack room lawyers think about Rule 6 which covers feeding the scrum.

"The ball shall be put in from the Referee's side by holding it in a horizontal position with a point in each hand and rolling it along the ground in to the tunnel formed by the opposing front forwards".

Trying to remember the how many years ago I last saw that rule enforced!

Finally on the law quoted by Dunbar if you watch any NRL match you will see that in general referees consistently rule that if the last man in the scrum has his foot on the ball it is not yet out out of the scrum.

[iangidds]

6 hours ago, Griff said:

Dunbar quoted the law, just read it and decide whether that's the ruling or whether the barrack room lawyers are right.

It feels like a partial law as I read it as it makes no reference to when the ball is in play , it appears only to say it has to pass through the feet of the 2nd row.

[Dunbar]

1 hour ago, iangidds said:

It feels like a partial law as I read it as it makes no reference to when the ball is in play , it appears only to say it has to pass through the feet of the 2nd row.

Yes, I did look at the whole section and there was no further clarification on when the ball is officially clear of the scrum.  I have just looked at the international laws pdf (which is 74 pages long) and there is no extra clarification in there either.

So the interpretation boils down to this... when the ball has passed the feet of the second row and 'with' the loose forward, is it in play?  If he/she picks it up then yes absolutely but what if the loose holds it with their feet. Because the loose can play the ball from the scrum, it seems that many interpret them as having any possession at all (hands or feet) as the ball being in play. 

I am OK with that interpretation and if the team feeding want to hold the ball in the scrum it must be the feet of the second row and not the loose.