Are you sure England is better then Samoa?

[arcticchris]

On 02/07/2022 at 07:08, Gomersall said:

 

Good news because earlier in the year he was talking about what an honour his family would see it for him to play for Australia as reaching the pinnacle. 
 

Maybe the inspirational rep weekend of International games stirred him as he arguably would be first pick on the wing for the Kangaroos.

[UTK]

21 hours ago, graveyard johnny said:

is tommy turbo still gonna be injured for the wc? that would be a shame!

Yeah he's out for the entire season - needed a shoulder reconstruction I believe.

Between Turbos absence and To'o electing for Samoa the Australian back 5 becomes a bit less clear.

IMO it's beginning to look like: 

1. Tedesco
2. Josh Addo-Carr
3. Latrell Mitchell
4. Burton/Crichton/Holmes/Wighton
5. Holmes/Cobbo/Taulagi

Dane Gagai appears to be well past international selection now, Tedesco and Holmes are the biggest certainties but I think Addo-Carr and Mitchell will be in that category too despite not playing Origin this year. The 4th outside back becomes a choice between Burton/Wighton/Crichton at centre (If Crichton chooses Samoa which he may well do given he is actually Samoan born we can rule him out) and Cobbo/Taulagi at wing with Holmes taking the other spot.

[Dave T]

10 hours ago, arcticchris said:

Good news because earlier in the year he was talking about what an honour his family would see it for him to play for Australia as reaching the pinnacle. 
 

Maybe the inspirational rep weekend of International games stirred him as he arguably would be first pick on the wing for the Kangaroos.

One of the most telling things about this is that the heritage players have often gone with the bigger teams as this is how they get to play on the big stage internationally. Now we are starting to see some better opportunities for these teams we are seeing more commitment. 

This is something we just haven't managed to replicate in Europe - and it is more of a logistical challenge, but we need quality tests for European nations that drives the heritage players to fully commit. 

If only En, Aus and NZ get prestige games, of course they will hoover up the talent. 

[Young Blood]

5 hours ago, UTK said:

Yeah he's out for the entire season - needed a shoulder reconstruction I believe.

Between Turbos absence and To'o electing for Samoa the Australian back 5 becomes a bit less clear.

IMO it's beginning to look like: 

1. Tedesco
2. Josh Addo-Carr
3. Latrell Mitchell
4. Burton/Crichton/Holmes/Wighton
5. Holmes/Cobbo/Taulagi

Dane Gagai appears to be well past international selection now, Tedesco and Holmes are the biggest certainties but I think Addo-Carr and Mitchell will be in that category too despite not playing Origin this year. The 4th outside back becomes a choice between Burton/Wighton/Crichton at centre (If Crichton chooses Samoa which he may well do given he is actually Samoan born we can rule him out) and Cobbo/Taulagi at wing with Holmes taking the other spot.

Holmes is better winger, Wighton or Burton will be the other centre. 

[Young Blood]

5 hours ago, UTK said:

Yeah he's out for the entire season - needed a shoulder reconstruction I believe.

Between Turbos absence and To'o electing for Samoa the Australian back 5 becomes a bit less clear.

IMO it's beginning to look like: 

1. Tedesco
2. Josh Addo-Carr
3. Latrell Mitchell
4. Burton/Crichton/Holmes/Wighton
5. Holmes/Cobbo/Taulagi

Dane Gagai appears to be well past international selection now, Tedesco and Holmes are the biggest certainties but I think Addo-Carr and Mitchell will be in that category too despite not playing Origin this year. The 4th outside back becomes a choice between Burton/Wighton/Crichton at centre (If Crichton chooses Samoa which he may well do given he is actually Samoan born we can rule him out) and Cobbo/Taulagi at wing with Holmes taking the other spot.

Holmes is better winger, Wighton or Burton will be the other centre. Suallii is ahead of Cobbo and Tualagi but that's if he chooses Australia same with Tualagi. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Young Blood

[Scubby]

If those heritage players elect for Samoa, Newcastle will be rocking with a 52,000 attendance and a genuine 50/50 contest. What is not to love about that to open the RLWC?

 

[Young Blood]

If nrl players choose Samoa and Tonga it will be a matter of time before they become nations popular sport. Considering they won't have nowhere near level of success in Rugby or Soccer. 

[DavidM]

I think Val Holmes is a cert , he’s on fire this year 

[Scubby]

5 minutes ago, DavidM said:

I think Val Holmes is a cert , he’s on fire this year 

Yes, he has to be somewhere in that three quarter line.

Tedesco, Munster, Cleary are locked in. It will be strong no doubt even with some players opting elsewhere.

[Young Blood]

Will you say the English team of 2017 is better or worse compared to 2022?

[Scubby]

11 minutes ago, Young Blood said:

Will you say the English team of 2017 is better or worse compared to 2022?

Worse in terms of experience. Sam Burgess, James Graham, James Roby, Shaun O'Loughlin, Jerry McGilvary, Ryan Hall (2017 version) are tough to replace.

[Dunbar]

1 hour ago, Young Blood said:

Will you say the English team of 2017 is better or worse compared to 2022?

It has the potential to be as good, if not slightly, better in my opinion.

Looking at the 2017 cup Final side...

1. Gareth Widdop

2. Jermaine McGillvary

3. Kallum Watkins

4. John Bateman

5. Ryan Hall

6. Kevin Brown

7. Luke Gale

8. Chris Hill

9. James Roby

10. James Graham

11. Ben Currie

12. Elliott Whitehead

13. Sam Burgess (c)

 

14. Alex Walmsley

15. Thomas Burgess

17. Chris Heighington

18. Jonny Lomax

Breaking this down into its parts and then comparing it to the possible team for 2022 (of course, this is who I would pick - and I am not Shaun Wane).

The spine in 2017 was Widdop, Brown, Gale and Roby.  The clear world class player here is Roby and I really do wish he would extent his career by 5 or 6 weeks to play for England.  But outside of that, I think 2022 Tomkins at 1 and a combination of Lomax and Welsby in the halves is better than the 2017 version (Williams may get the 7 jersey with Weslby as utility).  If we don't see Roby then I would go with Leeming and Clark.

The wingers in 2017 were close to the top of their game but I don't think either are better than Makinson at the moment who I think is locked in for this year barring injury.  There are a few candidates for the other wing and one of Johnstone, Young or Burgess could do a very good job.  I would say even overall.

In the centre, we went with a safe Bateman and a good attacking threat in Watkins.  I would go with Herbie Farnworth and Harry Newman but Mark Percival or Jake Wardle offer a very good option.  I would go with 2022 as being better.

Middles.  Chris Hill, James Graham, Alex Walmsley and Tom Burgess as the front row rotation was very good and Sam Burgess was at 13.

In 2022, I think Walmsley and Burgess are better players now (certainly Burgess) and we can add Luke Thompson, Mikołaj Olędzki and Matty Lees into the mix as well as few others.  Again, fairly tight.  Sam Burgess was a world class player but I rate Morgan Knowles very highly.

The back row will see Bateman this year alongside Whitehead (probably) but McMeeken, Farrell and Batchelor will push hard for a spot as I don't think Whitehead is as good as he was in 2017... still quality but not impacting games as much as he did.

If we get the right players on the park and go with an aggressive attacking attitude - at home we will be pretty strong,

Edited July 4, 2022 by Dunbar

[DavidM]

I think our team this year overall will be ( fitness permitting ) better . I say this with the proviso that I of course don’t know what team Wane is going to pick 

Edited July 4, 2022 by DavidM

[Dave T]

It's amazing when you consider that we were pretty close to a WC title with that team. 

One thing that I think we can gain with the retirement of some of those players is a bit more energy. Bennett was more conservative than even Wane is and we had huge over-reliance on a few key players. A lot of our attack was stunted by needing everything to go through Hodgson, Burgess, Graham, Whitehead etc. It was like a two-tier system really. 

Tbh, the real success of that last World Cup for England was the defensive effort, our attack was average at best. I think if the current team can get the right combinations and click we have more potential in attack, and we do need to get points. 

[DavidM]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

an aggressive attacking attitude

I think this is pivotal 

[Damien]

1 hour ago, DavidM said:

I think this is pivotal 

It is. You simply can't beat Australia at their own game, its what they do week in week out. That is why I was so critical of Bateman at centre in 2017 because it gave us no attacking threat and made our attack very predictable. Australia will score points, as will several other nations these days, and we need to score more (as obvious as that sounds).

Edited July 4, 2022 by Damien

[StandOffHalf]

5 hours ago, Scubby said:

Yes, he has to be somewhere in that three quarter line.

Tedesco, Munster, Cleary are locked in. It will be strong no doubt even with some players opting elsewhere.

Cleary is playing better and is in a dominant team, but I don't think DCE is by any means out of the picture. He's part of the establishment and a continuation on from Lockyer, Smith, etc from QLD. If he brings QLD home at Suncorp in Origin III, I can see him holding on to the Kangaroos' #7 jumper.

I agree that Tedesco and Munster are certainties, as long as they stay healthy.

Edited July 4, 2022 by StandOffHalf

[Dunbar]

41 minutes ago, Damien said:

It is. You simply can't beat Australia at their own game, its what they do week in week out. That is why I was so critical of Bateman at centre in 2017 because it gave us no attacking threat and made out attack very predictable. Australia will score points, as will several other nations these days, and we need to score more (as obvious as that sounds).

I completely endorse the attitude of going into the World Cup with an attacking attitude.  But I think the 'you can't beat them at their own game' is a little out of date (not trying to be confrontational).

We used to consider the Australian game defence focussed and perhaps attritional but it is far from it these days.  The average number of points scored in the NRL this year is 42 points per game while State of Origin has seen an average of 39 points a game over the last 11 games. 

The Aussie game today is clearly attack focussed and we will have to score points to beat any of the SH sides.

(p.s. the average points scored in Super League this year is 43 per game so almost identical to the NRL).

[Davo5]

2 hours ago, Dunbar said:

It has the potential to be as good, if not slightly, better in my opinion.

Looking at the 2017 cup Final side...

1. Gareth Widdop

2. Jermaine McGillvary

3. Kallum Watkins

4. John Bateman

5. Ryan Hall

6. Kevin Brown

7. Luke Gale

8. Chris Hill

9. James Roby

10. James Graham

11. Ben Currie

12. Elliott Whitehead

13. Sam Burgess (c)

 

14. Alex Walmsley

15. Thomas Burgess

17. Chris Heighington

18. Jonny Lomax

Breaking this down into its parts and then comparing it to the possible team for 2022 (of course, this is who I would pick - and I am not Shaun Wane).

The spine in 2017 was Widdop, Brown, Gale and Roby.  The clear world class player here is Roby and I really do wish he would extent his career by 5 or 6 weeks to play for England.  But outside of that, I think 2022 Tomkins at 1 and a combination of Lomax and Welsby in the halves is better than the 2017 version (Williams may get the 7 jersey with Weslby as utility).  If we don't see Roby then I would go with Leeming and Clark.

The wingers in 2017 were close to the top of their game but I don't think either are better than Makinson at the moment who I think is locked in for this year barring injury.  There are a few candidates for the other wing and one of Johnstone, Young or Burgess could do a very good job.  I would say even overall.

In the centre, we went with a safe Bateman and a good attacking threat in Watkins.  I would go with Herbie Farnworth and Harry Newman but Mark Percival or Jake Wardle offer a very good option.  I would go with 2022 as being better.

Middles.  Chris Hill, James Graham, Alex Walmsley and Tom Burgess as the front row rotation was very good and Sam Burgess was at 13.

In 2022, I think Walmsley and Burgess are better players now (certainly Burgess) and we can add Luke Thompson, Mikołaj Olędzki and Matty Lees into the mix as well as few others.  Again, fairly tight.  Sam Burgess was a world class player but I rate Morgan Knowles very highly.

The back row will see Bateman this year alongside Whitehead (probably) but McMeeken, Farrell and Batchelor will push hard for a spot as I don't think Whitehead is as good as he was in 2017... still quality but not impacting games as much as he did.

If we get the right players on the park and go with an aggressive attacking attitude - at home we will be pretty strong,

Our pack doesn’t look anywhere near the quality of 2017 but injury permitting our backline should be more dangerous,it’ll certainly have more pace,the halfbacks  are still a big worry though 

[Damien]

19 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I completely endorse the attitude of going into the World Cup with an attacking attitude.  But I think the 'you can't beat them at their own game' is a little out of date (not trying to be confrontational).

We used to consider the Australian game defence focussed and perhaps attritional but it is far from it these days.  The average number of points scored in the NRL this year is 42 points per game while State of Origin has seen an average of 39 points a game over the last 11 games. 

The Aussie game today is clearly attack focussed and we will have to score points to beat any of the SH sides.

(p.s. the average points scored in Super League this year is 43 per game so almost identical to the NRL).

No I agree with what you say. I was more trying to get across that if we simply try to contain Australia we lose. If we play conservative, possession based rugby and simply look to complete our sets we lose. They are still better at controlling the ruck and are still better at playing that game than us. They still do it week in, week out, the NRL hasn't turned into just throwing the ball about for 80 mins. They do it when it's right. And they will score points, they always have. We need to as well.

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, Dunbar said:

The wingers in 2017 were close to the top of their game

One was an offensive redundant and never got to display his skills in all the 8 games Bennett put a complete novice centre alongside Ryan Hall.

[Scubby]

15 minutes ago, Damien said:

No I agree with what you say. I was more trying to get across that if we simply try to contain Australia we lose. If we play conservative, possession based rugby and simply look to complete our sets we lose. They are still better at controlling the ruck and are still better at playing that game than us. They still do it week in, week out, the NRL hasn't turned into just throwing the ball about for 80 mins. They do it when it's right. And they will score points, they always have. We need to as well.

We've tried to contain Australia 3 times in World Cup finals and managed 1 try and only 14 points in 3 games (1992, 1995, 2017). Australia usually manage one more per game.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Scubby

[Harry Stottle]

57 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

(p.s. the average points scored in Super League this year is 43 per game so almost identical to the NRL).

So you have made this comparrison on the attacks Dunny.

How would you say the defensive patterns compare, I will rephrase that an other way, would you expect a SL team to perform equally as well in defence or otherwise if they were in the NRL competion?

Just looking for your opinion, nothing more.

[Dunbar]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So you have made this comparrison on the attacks Dunny.

How would you say the defensive patterns compare, I will rephrase that an other way, would you expect a SL team to perform equally as well in defence or otherwise if they were in the NRL competion?

Just looking for your opinion, nothing more.

I believe that the NRL is significantly ahead of the Super League in both attack and defence.

[Mr Frisky]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

I believe that the NRL is significantly ahead of the Super League in both attack and defence.

Think that's a given but I still think the Saints team of the past 2 years would have ran the NRL champs close if the WCC was played.

England arnt far away - 2017 final was very close and Australia arnt the team they were - can't currently beat Tonga - who England have never lost to.