The potential of RL in York and North Yorkshire

[The Daddy]

What does everyone think about York and the value that a successful club would bring to SL?

Mark Evans, the former Melbourne Storm CEO said that RL in the UK should strategically focus on new markets with reasonably sized conurbations. North Yorkshire has over half a million people and York has several towns around it with no major sports team around it.

The club has a decent stadium, I have no idea of what the club is like financially and whether they are stable enough organisation to play in SL, but I would like to learn more from the York supporters and other supporters that know the area.

 

[Futtocks]

York is historically significant going back at least to Roman times, but isn't actually very big.

The area around it is not heavily populated either, until you get to parts of Yorkshire that are catchment areas for bigger established clubs. In sporting terms, it is probably best known for horse racing, but when it stood in for Ascot (during refurbishment at the latter venue), even horse racing fans were pretty sniffy about it.

It has never been able to support a big club in any sport, even Football.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Futtocks

[RBKnight]

York is home to two historically very unsuccessful professional clubs in football and RL, with neither having particularly large fanbases, comparative to the size of the local population. Despite the city's considerable growth in the past few decades, that hasn't changed....

RL has deep roots in York, with three well-established community clubs, but the Knights almost went out of existence six years ago. Since that point, YCK under coach James Ford and former owner Jon Flatman has undergone a real revival, both on and off the pitch, and have made (in my view) fantastic strategic decisions, through the development of its training facilities and the work of the club's Foundation, which have massively increased the club's social and sporting footprint in the city. In particular, the decision to invest in the women's game has been both visionary and spectacularly successful.

But, but, but..... the Knights are a team currently aspiring to be regular play-off contenders in the Championship. Our average home crowd this season remains stubbornly below 2,500 (lower than at least four other teams in the division) and the vast majority of supporters are not expecting exponential growth in either performance or attendances (despite our dreams). We are pressing for steady, incremental improvement in both. Nobody thinks we're Super League ready

Think of York like the Gold Coast in Australia, which has been a graveyard for fantasies of sporting expansion for decades.

I just wish certain posters here would stop using the Knights (or Newcastle) as fantasy franchises, when there is no real evidence that they could currently provide any more than the current top championship sides, or whoever the current whipping boys in Super League are.

The original poster is distorting the views of Mark Evans, who has been very frank about the huge resources that have been required to keep the Storm show on the road in Melbourne. His recommendation for British expansion ? His words were "Fish where the fish are"........

 

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, RBKnight said:

York is home to two historically very unsuccessful professional clubs in football and RL, with neither having particularly large fanbases, comparative to the size of the local population. Despite the city's considerable growth in the past few decades, that hasn't changed....

RL has deep roots in York, with three well-established community clubs, but the Knights almost went out of existence six years ago. Since that point, YCK under coach James Ford and former owner Jon Flatman has undergone a real revival, both on and off the pitch, and have made (in my view) fantastic strategic decisions, through the development of its training facilities and the work of the club's Foundation, which have massively increased the club's social and sporting footprint in the city. In particular, the decision to invest in the women's game has been both visionary and spectacularly successful.

But, but, but..... the Knights are a team currently aspiring to be regular play-off contenders in the Championship. Our average home crowd this season remains stubbornly below 2,500 (lower than at least four other teams in the division) and the vast majority of supporters are not expecting exponential growth in either performance or attendances (despite our dreams). We are pressing for steady, incremental improvement in both. Nobody thinks we're Super League ready

Think of York like the Gold Coast in Australia, which has been a graveyard for fantasies of sporting expansion for decades.

I just wish certain posters here would stop using the Knights (or Newcastle) as fantasy franchises, when there is no real evidence that they could currently provide any more than the current top championship sides, or whoever the current whipping boys in Super League are.

The original poster is distorting the views of Mark Evans, who has been very frank about the huge resources that have been required to keep the Storm show on the road in Melbourne. His recommendation for British expansion ? His words were "Fish where the fish are"........

 

I assume the OP is referring to this interview.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/no-helmets-required/2021/sep/29/mark-evans-rugby-league-union-premiership-super-league

Don't think he's distorting Mark's views. York would be in there with Oldham, Rochdale, Huddersfield, ect. Mark was referring to expansion teams outside the heartlands and my take from it was he isn't opposed but the RFL/Super League have to be realistic about the cost and effort it will require.

[RBKnight]

Mark Evans actually has some hard truths for over-optimistic advocates of expansion to swallow, especially regarding London. He is also, on the basis of his "don't be the 3rd code in" not very hopeful regarding Toulouse's future.

In his long 5Live radio interview with Dave Hadfield, he highlighted the poor state of RL in its heartlands between Leeds and the west of Manchester - "where the fish are" - which currently contains so many sides who I hear of this forum "bring nothing to the game" or are regarded, as Championship sides, not worthy of financial support from the RFL's central allocations

 

[sweaty craiq]

We will not grow throwing limited income at pipe dreams, does the RFU worry about 5.5m folk in Yorkshire not having a Premiership RU side to follow?? or the 7.5m folk of lancs/cumbria/Cheshire only have 1 ?? 

Any businessman/woman with commercial market experience will tell you that maximising your low hanging fruit is the first step from which growth will flourish as demand will drive it, as it was doing with RL in the lead up to Sky - the sport was united and Internationals were competitive and well attended.

We are capable of asking France to secure its own TV deal, to increase to 14 before growing further by having plans/cash/timelines in place at selected growth spots ( personal choice here would be to have Newcastle linked to the soccer club, same with Cardiff etc) and sell a vision to Broadcasters that they buy into around annual International fixtures with from Tonga/Samoa/NZ/Aus/Fiji/PNG/France making up an annual 4 nations comp in alternate hemispheres with a WC gap year.

Lets take a deep breath a step back and start going forward again

[gingerjon]

3 hours ago, RBKnight said:

Mark Evans actually has some hard truths for over-optimistic advocates of expansion to swallow, especially regarding London. He is also, on the basis of his "don't be the 3rd code in" not very hopeful regarding Toulouse's future.

In his long 5Live radio interview with Dave Hadfield, he highlighted the poor state of RL in its heartlands between Leeds and the west of Manchester - "where the fish are" - which currently contains so many sides who I hear of this forum "bring nothing to the game" or are regarded, as Championship sides, not worthy of financial support from the RFL's central allocations

 

Virtually all of the RFL's allocations - in all possible guises - goes to the heartlands.

That the heartlands are in a bad way (if they are) is really not the fault of any outside them.

[David Shepherd]

14 hours ago, The Daddy said:

What does everyone think about York and the value that a successful club would bring to SL?

Mark Evans, the former Melbourne Storm CEO said that RL in the UK should strategically focus on new markets with reasonably sized conurbations. North Yorkshire has over half a million people and York has several towns around it with no major sports team around it.

The club has a decent stadium, I have no idea of what the club is like financially and whether they are stable enough organisation to play in SL, but I would like to learn more from the York supporters and other supporters that know the area.

 

York is a great city, probably my favourite in the world.  It's actually not that big though (less than the population of the wider Wakefield district) and North Yorkshire is massive and very rural, lots of big gaps between fairly small towns.

YCK are doing just fine.  They have potential to be more than they are now, I'm sure with the right management, they'll continue to grow and will one day grace Super League.

[steve oates]

37 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

We will not grow throwing limited income at pipe dreams, does the RFU worry about 5.5m folk in Yorkshire not having a Premiership RU side to follow?? 

Well said sir, we have had the pipe dream thread locked just now. Any co-incidence

I would say that Leeds RUFC were created to mop up Rugby Union fans across West Yorkshire and look how that sank and sank in the middle of a lot more than 5.5M folk. There is little to say to the OP as he has contrived to invent a totally false question and narrative.

I guess Scarborough Pirates come to mind here though, can't quite remember if the the whole of North Yorkshire flooded to their games at the McCain stadium??  Maybe they did....anyone?

[sweaty craiq]

51 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Yes it does,  which is why they are trying to wrestle back some power from the cartel to get doncaster in.  They are desperate for a team in Yorkshire and probably delighted that we have failed to lock down south Yorkshire. 

If people are worried about being a 3rd code than places like York Sheffield North Wales Cornwall are exactly where you want to target. 

The heartlands arguement ignores the massive demographic change in those places but the problem for clubs in so many places, be they Oldham or Midlands is simply infrastructure.  

If Oldham or Rochdale had championship standard grounds to make rev off I am confident they could grow back to 2000-2500 crowds which doesnt sound alot but it starts to get money back in the sport. 

York have a perfect sized ground in an economically thriving city, with only a now resurgent non league footy club as comp.  absolute no brainer to be hopeful for them. 

If that were the case they would behave like many are asking the RFL to, simply remove a club from a congested area and place Donnie in there operating out of the soccer ground so Goodbye Bath and hello Donnie. Like lovers they will.

I am not advocating propping up clubs with a few hundred gates btw, they must do that themselves but a Million might put 20 Development Officers in the North, tasked with genuine increased playing numbers, with 'new' clubs and schools entering Leagues/comps which then feeds back into interest and crowds at local level. Instead of a second tier whereby 2 clubs win by 50 most weekends because they are cashed up - then we have the RL mentality of leveling up at the lowest point to stop ambition.

If we are not going for 2 x 10 (which I support) then 14 is a no brainer until we have a cashed up 15th club, licences with caveats lasting 2/3 years  - proper tender process realistic for those applying to come in and not protecting those in. Tender to grow because if we have 16 cashed up ambitious clubs then we find a way to keep momentum.

 

[JonM]

I moved to York a while back, and have been very pleasantly surprised at the profile the Knights have in the city, the quality of the stadium, and the facilities and standards of the amateur clubs (Acorn & Heworth have their own clubhouses, multiple pitches of their own, more than one adult team, all the age groups, lots of volunteers etc.) Like everywhere else, football is clearly bigger, but a York club could certainly make a go of things in SL. Fundamentally though, as others have said, it's not that big a place. although there is a much wider region that looks to York. It does have the advantage of being relatively well off. Unlike many RL towns, it's also a place where young people move to, rather than away from, and obviously a lot of tourism too.

I'm about to move to Wensleydale, which means I'll be in a part of North Yorkshire where I'll be well over an hour's drive to my nearest clubs (Keighley) and over 90 minutes to Leeds, York, Barrow or Newcastle. In other words, I was closer to professional  RL clubs when I lived in Cambridge than I will be in Yorkshire. North Yorkshire is just too big and rural to count its population as York's target market.

[Leyther_Matt]

1 hour ago, JonM said:

I moved to York a while back, and have been very pleasantly surprised at the profile the Knights have in the city, the quality of the stadium, and the facilities and standards of the amateur clubs (Acorn & Heworth have their own clubhouses, multiple pitches of their own, more than one adult team, all the age groups, lots of volunteers etc.) Like everywhere else, football is clearly bigger, but a York club could certainly make a go of things in SL. Fundamentally though, as others have said, it's not that big a place. although there is a much wider region that looks to York. It does have the advantage of being relatively well off. Unlike many RL towns, it's also a place where young people move to, rather than away from, and obviously a lot of tourism too.

I'm about to move to Wensleydale, which means I'll be in a part of North Yorkshire where I'll be well over an hour's drive to my nearest clubs (Keighley) and over 90 minutes to Leeds, York, Barrow or Newcastle. In other words, I was closer to professional  RL clubs when I lived in Cambridge than I will be in Yorkshire. North Yorkshire is just too big and rural to count its population as York's target market.

I was going to make a joke about that but was worried it may have been a bit too cheesy.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

We will not grow throwing limited income at pipe dreams, does the RFU worry about 5.5m folk in Yorkshire not having a Premiership RU side to follow?? or the 7.5m folk of lancs/cumbria/Cheshire only have 1 ?? 

Any businessman/woman with commercial market experience will tell you that maximising your low hanging fruit is the first step from which growth will flourish as demand will drive it, as it was doing with RL in the lead up to Sky - the sport was united and Internationals were competitive and well attended.

We are capable of asking France to secure its own TV deal, to increase to 14 before growing further by having plans/cash/timelines in place at selected growth spots ( personal choice here would be to have Newcastle linked to the soccer club, same with Cardiff etc) and sell a vision to Broadcasters that they buy into around annual International fixtures with from Tonga/Samoa/NZ/Aus/Fiji/PNG/France making up an annual 4 nations comp in alternate hemispheres with a WC gap year.

Lets take a deep breath a step back and start going forward again

Rugby union has at least one club in 7 of the 9 regions in England so it's not a fair comparison. They actually do worry about Yorkshire and would love to have a decent club from there. Linking Newcastle to the soccer club would be a mistake. They need to develop their own brand and identity.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

Yes it does,  which is why they are trying to wrestle back some power from the cartel to get doncaster in.  They are desperate for a team in Yorkshire and probably delighted that we have failed to lock down south Yorkshire. 

If people are worried about being a 3rd code than places like York Sheffield North Wales Cornwall are exactly where you want to target. 

The heartlands arguement ignores the massive demographic change in those places but the problem for clubs in so many places, be they Oldham or Midlands is simply infrastructure.  

If Oldham or Rochdale had championship standard grounds to make rev off I am confident they could grow back to 2000-2500 crowds which doesnt sound alot but it starts to get money back in the sport. 

York have a perfect sized ground in an economically thriving city, with only a now resurgent non league footy club as comp.  absolute no brainer to be hopeful for them. 

Greater Manchester would be those heartlands but plenty of areas in Manchester which are untouched by rugby league.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

If that were the case they would behave like many are asking the RFL to, simply remove a club from a congested area and place Donnie in there operating out of the soccer ground so Goodbye Bath and hello Donnie. Like lovers they will.

I am not advocating propping up clubs with a few hundred gates btw, they must do that themselves but a Million might put 20 Development Officers in the North, tasked with genuine increased playing numbers, with 'new' clubs and schools entering Leagues/comps which then feeds back into interest and crowds at local level. Instead of a second tier whereby 2 clubs win by 50 most weekends because they are cashed up - then we have the RL mentality of leveling up at the lowest point to stop ambition.

If we are not going for 2 x 10 (which I support) then 14 is a no brainer until we have a cashed up 15th club, licences with caveats lasting 2/3 years  - proper tender process realistic for those applying to come in and not protecting those in. Tender to grow because if we have 16 cashed up ambitious clubs then we find a way to keep momentum.

 

2x10 is an awful idea. Sky don't want more loop fixtures. 12 is a good number for a Super League and then 12 for the second tier. 23 rounds including Magic or the Big Bash. The remaining 13 clubs can be in a unfunded third tier if that is what the RFL want.

[Eddie]

19 minutes ago, NW10LDN said:

2x10 is an awful idea. Sky don't want more loop fixtures. 12 is a good number for a Super League and then 12 for the second tier. 23 rounds including Magic or the Big Bash. The remaining 13 clubs can be in a unfunded third tier if that is what the RFL want.

Bye bye to most of those 13 clubs then, excellent. 

[Toby Chopra]

36 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Bye bye to most of those 13 clubs then, excellent. 

They're already unfunded (or close enough) . The only argument is whether to close the door on them entirely. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Toby Chopra

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Bye bye to most of those 13 clubs then, excellent. 

Looks like they are set on it happening either way.

[Phil W]

3 hours ago, JonM said:

I moved to York a while back, and have been very pleasantly surprised at the profile the Knights have in the city, the quality of the stadium, and the facilities and standards of the amateur clubs (Acorn & Heworth have their own clubhouses, multiple pitches of their own, more than one adult team, all the age groups, lots of volunteers etc.) Like everywhere else, football is clearly bigger, but a York club could certainly make a go of things in SL. Fundamentally though, as others have said, it's not that big a place. although there is a much wider region that looks to York. It does have the advantage of being relatively well off. Unlike many RL towns, it's also a place where young people move to, rather than away from, and obviously a lot of tourism too.

I'm about to move to Wensleydale, which means I'll be in a part of North Yorkshire where I'll be well over an hour's drive to my nearest clubs (Keighley) and over 90 minutes to Leeds, York, Barrow or Newcastle. In other words, I was closer to professional  RL clubs when I lived in Cambridge than I will be in Yorkshire. North Yorkshire is just too big and rural to count its population as York's target market.

Knowing how big Wensleydale is it might or might not be close but Catterick Crusaders have a team that play in the north east league. Also at Newcastle we have kids from Catterick in the academy.

[Hopping Mad]

On 14/07/2022 at 21:44, Futtocks said:

York is historically significant going back at least to Roman times, but isn't actually very big.

The area around it is not heavily populated either, until you get to parts of Yorkshire that are catchment areas for bigger established clubs. In sporting terms, it is probably best known for horse racing, but when it stood in for Ascot (during refurbishment at the latter venue), even horse racing fans were pretty sniffy about it.

It has never been able to support a big club in any sport, even Football.

The Tees down towards Northallerton and along the coast to Redcar, Saltburn and Whitby is Middlesbrough FC territory. Plenty of Boro fans in that part of North Yorkshire. York City FC's catchment runs up to Thirsk and out towards Harrogate and Malton. Scarborough Athletic FC have a tiny catchment (once described by a former chairman as "half fish and half sheep"). I'm not sure York RL's appeal extends much beyond the affluent villages close to York's outer ring road.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Hopping Mad

[Hopping Mad]

On 15/07/2022 at 11:30, steve oates said:

I guess Scarborough Pirates come to mind here though, can't quite remember if the the whole of North Yorkshire flooded to their games at the McCain stadium??  Maybe they did....anyone?

Average crowd for Scarborough's sole season was 750+, IIRC (777 sticks in my mind). Pirates had one or two crowds over 1,000, but interest waned pretty quickly. Hardly anybody watched their last few games.

[paulwalker71]

Well, we moved last year to live in the North Yorkshire town of Guisborough - but I'm about an hour and a quarter from York's new stadium. So it doesn't exactly feel like 'our' area...

It's a vast area with not exactly amazing road links - to get to York I've either got to drive quite slowly over the North York Moors, or take a round about route along decent roads.

I'm probably better driving up to Newcastle than down to York

We've got a RLWC game at the Riverside - which is about five miles from where I live. Not that you'd know it, because there hasn't been a scrap of publicity that I've seen, so goodness only knows how many people will be rattling around the 30,000 capacity stadium to see Cook Islands vd Tonga

I'm not aware of any amateur Rugby League in the area - I'd gladly go along if there was

[Hopping Mad]

7 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

Well, we moved last year to live in the North Yorkshire town of Guisborough - but I'm about an hour and a quarter from York's new stadium. So it doesn't exactly feel like 'our' area...

It's a vast area with not exactly amazing road links - to get to York I've either got to drive quite slowly over the North York Moors, or take a round about route along decent roads.

I'm probably better driving up to Newcastle than down to York

We've got a RLWC game at the Riverside - which is about five miles from where I live. Not that you'd know it, because there hasn't been a scrap of publicity that I've seen, so goodness only knows how many people will be rattling around the 30,000 capacity stadium to see Cook Islands vd Tonga

I'm not aware of any amateur Rugby League in the area - I'd gladly go along if there was

Really, Paul?

I lived in Great Ayton, Guisborough's neighbour, for four years during the 1990s. On a Sunday afternoon, it was a 45-minute run, via the A172 and the A19, to Huntington Stadium. I used to drive down to watch York quite a lot. Nobody else did, from Teesside, mind! 

Teesside Steelers ARLFC were around at the same time. Saw them play, once or twice, at the Billingham RU ground. Shame Steelers folded. They had a bit of success.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Hopping Mad

[Futtocks]

2 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

Well, we moved last year to live in the North Yorkshire town of Guisborough - but I'm about an hour and a quarter from York's new stadium. So it doesn't exactly feel like 'our' area...

It's a vast area with not exactly amazing road links - to get to York I've either got to drive quite slowly over the North York Moors, or take a round about route along decent roads.

I'm probably better driving up to Newcastle than down to York

We've got a RLWC game at the Riverside - which is about five miles from where I live. Not that you'd know it, because there hasn't been a scrap of publicity that I've seen, so goodness only knows how many people will be rattling around the 30,000 capacity stadium to see Cook Islands vd Tonga

I'm not aware of any amateur Rugby League in the area - I'd gladly go along if there was

Yes, Guisborough, Great Ayton, Stokesley and the other towns along the North end of the Moors really don't look to York as their significant city. It isn't so much the distance, it's the indirectness of the route.

[Futtocks]

2 minutes ago, Hopping Mad said:

Really, Paul?

I lived in Great Ayton, Guisborough's neighbour, for four years during the 1990s. On a Sunday afternoon, it was a 45-minute run, via the A172 and the A19, to Huntington Stadium. I used to drive down to watch York quite a lot. Nobody else did, from Teesside, mind! 

Teesside Steelers ARLFC were around at the same time. Saw them play, once or twice, at the Billingham RU ground. Shame Steelers folded. They had a bit of success.

Teesside University had a RL side for as while, but I think that's no longer a going concern.