Sun 23rd July : Betfred RL Challenge Cup Semi Final : Hull Kingston Rovers v Wigan Warriors KO 17:00 BBC2

[redjonn]

On the sending off...

I noted that Lewis having been tackled actually just got on with playing the ball.... No milking it so to speak.

Anyway just to give my opinion I agree it was a sending off... although the ref didn't seem to instantly stop play.

[Exiled Wiganer]

47 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Reckon that was an 8,000 vs 2,500 split at best. Shame Wigan didn't bring more - it's closer to Leeds than Hull is...!!

Giving them the West Terrace though when they could have been in the western end of the South Stand was ridiculous. 

Oddly enough, we are often accused of not bringing any fans anywhere. Everyone’s fans appear to be better. And yet week in, week out we get the second best attendances in the league, and many clubs get their biggest gates when playing against us… maths is a funny old thing. According to another HKR fan on here it was the superiority of your supporters which decided the game, as it lead to the sending off that decided the game in your favour. 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 minute ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

Oddly enough, we are often accused of not bringing any fans anywhere. Everyone’s fans appear to be better. And yet week in, week out we get the second best attendances in the league, and many clubs get their biggest gates when playing against us… maths is a funny old thing. According to another HKR fan on here it was the superiority of your supporters which decided the game, as it lead to the sending off that decided the game in your favour. 

Mate I've got no opinion on Wigan's support generally, but it's indisputable that it didn't turn up yesterday. I'm sure there's many reasons for that, from the West Terrace allocation to a degree of "we're used to winning things", but it is what it is. 

[Exiled Wiganer]

Just now, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Mate I've got no opinion on Wigan's support generally, but it's indisputable that it didn't turn up yesterday. I'm sure there's many reasons for that, from the West Terrace allocation to a degree of "we're used to winning things", but it is what it is. 

What is what it is? On one Sunday, HKR may have had more fans (about 7k according to one independent newspaper report I read). Bravo. Where are you week in, week out, year after year after year? Do some research into actual crowd figures, and do some actual research on attendances when we visit, and then come back to me with “it is what it is”. 

[Exiled Wiganer]

If we take away anything from this week end I dearly hope that it is an appreciation that our game should never become a closed shop. Both finalists would have been on the wrong side of a drawbridge to protect the top teams on many occasions over the last 20 years. I have watched around 20 teams in Cup or Grand Finals, each of which has brought a huge amount to the party, our roots go very deep in a lot of places. I hope IMG are watching closely and taking notes. 

[RigbyLuger]

7 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

What is what it is? On one Sunday, HKR may have had more fans (about 7k according to one independent newspaper report I read). Bravo. Where are you week in, week out, year after year after year? Do some research into actual crowd figures, and do some actual research on attendances when we visit, and then come back to me with “it is what it is”. 

KR don't give attendances out anymore to stop that research.

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

So in every game, every head contact results in a yellow or red card?

I have watched a lot of games this year, but have failed to notice that being applied. I must watch more carefully. 

Read harder. My post doesn't say that at all. 

[Liverpool Rover]

What a great tense game that was. I thought we had blown it at the end so to get the win was amazing. We don't play with the attacking style of Smith but there is such a steel and reliliance in the team that has been missing for a long time. 

On the Shorrocks tackle on Lewis in todays game as far as I know any direct contact to the head is supposed to be a red card no matter the circumstances so I thought Miski was going to get a red for the contact on Opacic. French might well finding himself with a case to answer for the initial tackle on Opacic which twisted him around.

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, Liverpool Rover said:

 

On the Shorrocks tackle on Lewis in todays game as far as I know any direct contact to the head is supposed to be a red card no matter the circumstances so I thought Miski was going to get a red for the contact on Opacic. French might well finding himself with a case to answer for the initial tackle on Opacic which twisted him around.

You are saying every high tackle is a red card? 

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, Liverpool Rover said:

What a great tense game that was. I thought we had blown it at the end so to get the win was amazing. We don't play with the attacking style of Smith but there is such a steel and reliliance in the team that has been missing for a long time. 

On the Shorrocks tackle on Lewis in todays game as far as I know any direct contact to the head is supposed to be a red card no matter the circumstances so I thought Miski was going to get a red for the contact on Opacic. French might well finding himself with a case to answer for the initial tackle on Opacic which twisted him around.

I thought they were completely different incidents. The Shorrocks one was pretty clear cut and an obvious sending off. The Miski one was completely different in that the Hull KR player was falling and his head collided into Miski more so than Miski making a tackle. There was little Miski could do and it was a clear accident, one of those things that inevitably happen in Rugby from time to time. As for French having a case to answer, not a chance.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 hour ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

What is what it is? On one Sunday, HKR may have had more fans (about 7k according to one independent newspaper report I read). Bravo. Where are you week in, week out, year after year after year? Do some research into actual crowd figures, and do some actual research on attendances when we visit, and then come back to me with “it is what it is”. 

You're being far too defensive here mate. I've said there were reasons for Wigan fans not showing up, but they didn't.

But if you want to have this conversation let's do it. What attendance do you think Wigan would be getting if, instead of being subsidised to a huge degree that you were able to buy the league and cup for a decade, you'd been relegated in the late 80's, gone bust, spent years playing in the lower leagues on a postage-stamp sized ploughed field in the middle of a dog track and speedway circuit. With neighbours up the road getting hand outs from the local council, and taking another club's TV money and first team squad, so being able to dominate you in the local market for 20 years. Imagine not having the first 12 years of Sky TV rights funding (when it was even more valuable than it is now), and imagine not having a local sports shop millionaire invite you into a stadium he was building for his beloved football club. Let's see what Wigan's gate would be after 30 years of that. If you think it would be what it is now I've a bridge to sell you. 

I like Wigan as a club, they're a model Hull KR aspire to follow through hard work over time, but jeez sometimes some of their fans need to check their privilege. You're not inherently better, you've just had a good run. 

[meast]

7 hours ago, Clinton Baptiste said:

Sweet baby Jesus and the orphans,you need to get help.too many knocks on your head by cow bells

What's the problem?

[Liverpool Rover]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

You are saying every high tackle is a red card? 

Now I'm more awake than I was this morning I was mistaken, I don't know where I got that from. I now remember seeing tackles in recent weeks where ball carriers had fallen into tacklers and it was just a penalty.

[Exiled Wiganer]

1 hour ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

You're being far too defensive here mate. I've said there were reasons for Wigan fans not showing up, but they didn't.

But if you want to have this conversation let's do it. What attendance do you think Wigan would be getting if, instead of being subsidised to a huge degree that you were able to buy the league and cup for a decade, you'd been relegated in the late 80's, gone bust, spent years playing in the lower leagues on a postage-stamp sized ploughed field in the middle of a dog track and speedway circuit. With neighbours up the road getting hand outs from the local council, and taking another club's TV money and first team squad, so being able to dominate you in the local market for 20 years. Imagine not having the first 12 years of Sky TV rights funding (when it was even more valuable than it is now), and imagine not having a local sports shop millionaire invite you into a stadium he was building for his beloved football club. Let's see what Wigan's gate would be after 30 years of that. If you think it would be what it is now I've a bridge to sell you. 

I like Wigan as a club, they're a model Hull KR aspire to follow through hard work over time, but jeez sometimes some of their fans need to check their privilege. You're not inherently better, you've just had a good run. 

Wigan were not subsidised in the 90s. Your owner has put in far more money than Wigan’s board injected from the 80s until Whelan bought us in the mid 90s. I know because I am a shareholder. Our “model” was to go as big as possible and reinvest everything we had. It was an era before salary caps (as indeed the vast majority of the game’s history has been), and so this approach lead to us being in a position to spend more on players than anyone else bar Leeds. You see that in a lot of professional sport. But, and this is the key point, at its heart we were able to get huge crowds because the whole town is a league hotbed. Our schools, our amateur clubs, the town’s culture is hugely conducive to a successful club. We are a league town, and I am proud of that. We also support the game, as I pointed out above, bringing large numbers of fans to matches year in and year out. And we support the international game, with our stadium having huge international crowds. 

I know far too little about HKR’s particular circumstances, but have seen their crowds over the years. However, I will always be defensive of our crowds, as we get attacked on a regular basis, when the reality is we turn up week after week, year after year. I know a lot of fans who have to budget carefully, for whom cost was a major factor in whether to stay or go: plus concern at being in the worst terrace in the world in torrential rain. We still travelled in numbers. By all means criticise the team and the club, but our spectators are - like most leaguies - wonderful people who contribute immensely to our game.

[Exiled Wiganer]

5 minutes ago, Liverpool Rover said:

Now I'm more awake than I was this morning I was mistaken, I don't know where I got that from. I now remember seeing tackles in recent weeks where ball carriers had fallen into tacklers and it was just a penalty.

I am getting more and more confused now. I have seen a lot of games in which tackles moving up the body or accidental head clashes have not resulted in red cards, or any cards, or even penalties. Marshall was hit around the head at least twice on Saturday without their being any outcry. I wonder whether his refusal to lie on the floor as if knocked out goes against him…

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

Oddly enough, we are often accused of not bringing any fans anywhere. Everyone’s fans appear to be better. And yet week in, week out we get the second best attendances in the league, and many clubs get their biggest gates when playing against us… maths is a funny old thing. According to another HKR fan on here it was the superiority of your supporters which decided the game, as it lead to the sending off that decided the game in your favour. 

Yep saw that, crazy.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

13 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

Wigan were not subsidised in the 90s. Your owner has put in far more money than Wigan’s board injected from the 80s until Whelan bought us in the mid 90s. I know because I am a shareholder. Our “model” was to go as big as possible and reinvest everything we had. It was an era before salary caps (as indeed the vast majority of the game’s history has been), and so this approach lead to us being in a position to spend more on players than anyone else bar Leeds. You see that in a lot of professional sport. But, and this is the key point, at its heart we were able to get huge crowds because the whole town is a league hotbed. Our schools, our amateur clubs, the town’s culture is hugely conducive to a successful club. We are a league town, and I am proud of that. We also support the game, as I pointed out above, bringing large numbers of fans to matches year in and year out. And we support the international game, with our stadium having huge international crowds. 

I know far too little about HKR’s particular circumstances, but have seen their crowds over the years. However, I will always be defensive of our crowds, as we get attacked on a regular basis, when the reality is we turn up week after week, year after year. I know a lot of fans who have to budget carefully, for whom cost was a major factor in whether to stay or go: plus concern at being in the worst terrace in the world in torrential rain. We still travelled in numbers. By all means criticise the team and the club, but our spectators are - like most leaguies - wonderful people who contribute immensely to our game.

You don't get attacked by me on a weekly basis, I like Wigan. Hull KR are aiming to be like Wigan, with a production line of talent and a consistent culture throughout the club. Some people would take those statements at face value and reduce the scale of their defensiveness. 

However, two things were true yesterday. Wigans ticket sales were disappointing for a club of its size, and Hull KRs supporters turned up. A bigger man would be happy to admit that, rather than start the whole "my club's bigger than your club" twaddle.

Also. the idea that Hull KR's small owner subsidy (£500k in Superleague, £1m in the Championship) in a salary-capped environment is in any way comparable to the relative impact on match results of Wigan's shareholder subsidies in the 1980's is for the birds. The change in the value of money since doesn't adjust that reality. Like I said, check your privilege before casting aspersions on the achievements of other clubs who are fighting the good fight to rebuild. 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

16 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I am getting more and more confused now. I have seen a lot of games in which tackles moving up the body or accidental head clashes have not resulted in red cards, or any cards, or even penalties. Marshall was hit around the head at least twice on Saturday without their being any outcry. I wonder whether his refusal to lie on the floor as if knocked out goes against him…

The shoulder made direct contact with Lewis' head, there was no "moving up". He then went to the ground, as any human would, before Shorrock fell on him to complete the tackle. Lewis then got up at normal speed given he was awaiting a dummy half in a kick-return set (where you always take a little time), and played the ball, despite Ethan Ryan trying to stop him out of concern for him after the collision. 

All this nonsense about Lewis taking a dive to win a penalty bears no relationship to events, which we can all watch on video at our leisure. 

[Exiled Wiganer]

Miski has got no ban and Shorrocks has got a 1 match ban, apparently. 

[Exiled Wiganer]

5 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

The shoulder made direct contact with Lewis' head, there was no "moving up". He then went to the ground, as any human would, before Shorrock fell on him to complete the tackle. Lewis then got up at normal speed given he was awaiting a dummy half in a kick-return set (where you always take a little time), and played the ball, despite Ethan Ryan trying to stop him out of concern for him after the collision. 

All this nonsense about Lewis taking a dive to win a penalty bears no relationship to events, which we can all watch on video at our leisure. 

My point about milking a penalty was an entirely separate one, as a way in which Marshall (who is often hit high I suspect because of his height and running style) might draw attention to being hit high. I did not mean to imply Lewis did this. I have not checked and I do not recall his doing so at all. 

[EagleEyePie]

30 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

The shoulder made direct contact with Lewis' head, there was no "moving up". He then went to the ground, as any human would, before Shorrock fell on him to complete the tackle. Lewis then got up at normal speed given he was awaiting a dummy half in a kick-return set (where you always take a little time), and played the ball, despite Ethan Ryan trying to stop him out of concern for him after the collision. 

All this nonsense about Lewis taking a dive to win a penalty bears no relationship to events, which we can all watch on video at our leisure. 

The shoulder didn't make direct contact to the head. Lewis' head moves forward in the impact of the tackle then rocks back. His head can't move forward on impact if the first impact is to the head. That's why he was dazed but ultimately fine. There was a whiplash motion, not direct contact from a shoulder into his chin which almost certainly would have sparked him out. You don't get a whiplash motion with direct contact.

He'd have been dazed for sure. There's no way he's playing for a penalty.

[M j M]

2 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

Miski has got no ban and Shorrocks has got a 1 match ban, apparently. 

Nothing to do with yesterday's game as such or that incident but every time I see Miski he looks bloody awful. Is it just the Wigan games I'm watching or do Pie eaters agree?

[GeordieSaint]

Just now, M j M said:

Nothing to do with yesterday's game as such or that incident but every time I see Miski he looks bloody awful. Is it just the Wigan games I'm watching or do Pie eaters agree?

I actually disagree. He’s not a Brett Dallas or Scott Donald. But he’s fairly solid, takes the ball in strongly, and gives 100%. A club man, rather a superstar. Every club has and needs them in this era. 

[EagleEyePie]

34 minutes ago, M j M said:

Nothing to do with yesterday's game as such or that incident but every time I see Miski he looks bloody awful. Is it just the Wigan games I'm watching or do Pie eaters agree?

His strength is his kick returns and carries, similar to a winger like Tom Davies. He's also a very good finisher and very consistent. He's not going to make a 100 metre break and dazzle with fancy footwork but he's been one of our best players over the last couple of months.

His carries mean he always offers something, as opposed to some wingers who might be pacey and flashy but don't offer you much unless they've got a lot of space to run into.

[Gomersall]

6 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

You're being far too defensive here mate. I've said there were reasons for Wigan fans not showing up, but they didn't.

But if you want to have this conversation let's do it. What attendance do you think Wigan would be getting if, instead of being subsidised to a huge degree that you were able to buy the league and cup for a decade, you'd been relegated in the late 80's, gone bust, spent years playing in the lower leagues on a postage-stamp sized ploughed field in the middle of a dog track and speedway circuit. With neighbours up the road getting hand outs from the local council, and taking another club's TV money and first team squad, so being able to dominate you in the local market for 20 years. Imagine not having the first 12 years of Sky TV rights funding (when it was even more valuable than it is now), and imagine not having a local sports shop millionaire invite you into a stadium he was building for his beloved football club. Let's see what Wigan's gate would be after 30 years of that. If you think it would be what it is now I've a bridge to sell you. 

I like Wigan as a club, they're a model Hull KR aspire to follow through hard work over time, but jeez sometimes some of their fans need to check their privilege. You're not inherently better, you've just had a good run. 

Remind me how much Rovers paid for the land when they first moved to New Craven Park and how much sponsorship money they received from a council owned company i e. Wastewise?