Castleford stadium.

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

Hi WWB , as far as I know there still is a requirement to demonstrate how the funding will be used attached to the awarding of the £2m . From WT own website Nov 29 2021 ;

As part of the agreement clubs will need to produce and deliver a Community Use Strategy as part of the funding agreement. This would show how the clubs will increase community use and support and encourage the growth of grass roots rugby league.

As part of this, the Council will receive an annual report on the usage and the wider impact of the usage on the community.

Also at the beginning of the same article it specifically states that the money to be used for stadium

 

The funding plan will support all three clubs to meet the current, and potential future, Rugby Football League (RFL) conditions on stadium facilities as well as improving community use at the sites.

 

The above is exactly what Cas are using it for . Since this article was released IMG have put certain criteria into stadium requirements and the £2M released for Cas goes towards meeting these requirements , in the first instance Plan B , before Plan A gets the go-ahead. Wakefield Trinity used the £2M resilience fund for exactly the same thing , towards their new stand . 

 

Wakey have set out how the £2million for them will support the community function with actual things like the main stand having community facilities in it, and the football team being able to share the ground too for example.

As far as I can tell Cas' community aspect is "this will keep us in Super League which is good".

I'm not slating that from Cas, it's probably true and if WMDC are willing to accept that then great. But it is stretching the "community use" aspect to a far greater extent than expected, indeed if it can even be called that at all.

[Wollo Wollo Wayoo]

20 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

As part of this, the Council will receive an annual report on the usage and the wider impact of the usage on the community.

The three reports will make interesting reading. 

[Taffy Tiger]

4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Wakey have set out how the £2million for them will support the community function with actual things like the main stand having community facilities in it, and the football team being able to share the ground too for example.

As far as I can tell Cas' community aspect is "this will keep us in Super League which is good".

I'm not slating that from Cas, it's probably true and if WMDC are willing to accept that then great. But it is stretching the "community use" aspect to a far greater extent than expected, indeed if it can even be called that at all.

Hi Tommy , you may be right , we just don't know what the arrangement is with WMDC and Cas . We do know that now  PP has been granted a full upgrade to WR will take place in the future (although we don't know exactly when) and when it does the money would have been released by WMDC anyway . I am only surmising here but perhaps this has something to do with the release of the reslience fund to Cas now . That said we don't know the ins and outs of it , but WMDC seem more than happy to release the money now , which I am sure they wouldn't have done if they didn't have the necessary assurances from Cas that the community would benefit from Plan B prior to Plan A being implemented .

[Taffy Tiger]

see below double posted

 

 

Edited February 26 by Taffy Tiger

[Taffy Tiger]

6 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

We also have to remember that the Cas and Wakey circumstances are different

 

Wakey plans were just for a new stand , whereas Cas are upgrading all around the stadium . It could be that the £2M resilience fund is going towards that . 

The full development includes new roofs , terracing work , floodlights etc . The resilience fund may well be going towards this , which is work that can be started now as it is independent of the new main stand.

As I understand it , our new director Martin Jepson has just put another significant amount of money into the club , some of which may be going towards stadium upgrades such as Big Screen , LEA Advertising (although may have to wait until new stand built) and new seating in Princess Street .  

Again I am only surmising though 

6 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

 

 

Edited February 26 by Taffy Tiger

[Tommygilf]

46 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

Hi Tommy , you may be right , we just don't know what the arrangement is with WMDC and Cas . We do know that now  PP has been granted a full upgrade to WR will take place in the future (although we don't know exactly when) and when it does the money would have been released by WMDC anyway . I am only surmising here but perhaps this has something to do with the release of the reslience fund to Cas now . That said we don't know the ins and outs of it , but WMDC seem more than happy to release the money now , which I am sure they wouldn't have done if they didn't have the necessary assurances from Cas that the community would benefit from Plan B prior to Plan A being implemented .

Hi mate, Having been well abreast of the Wakey application and how that funding was released, this appears if not less stringent, then perhaps suggestive that Wakey didn't need to try so hard to justify their usage.

FWIW I think its good to do for Cas and good on them for getting the improvements into WR in a logical way. I just also understand why some Wakey fans might see a disparity.

[Taffy Tiger]

29 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Hi mate, Having been well abreast of the Wakey application and how that funding was released, this appears if not less stringent, then perhaps suggestive that Wakey didn't need to try so hard to justify their usage.

FWIW I think its good to do for Cas and good on them for getting the improvements into WR in a logical way. I just also understand why some Wakey fans might see a disparity.

Hi Tommygif , it sounds as though you have more of an idea of the workings going on behind the scene , so you are in a much better position than me to make any observations . Added to that the fact that I am very much coming at it from a Cas angle as well  , I accept that my views may well be skewed a little and I do understand how Wakey fans may be a little aggrieved . 

 

Sadly the IMG process is inevitably going to put fan against fan , and in the same way as I am really pleased that the money has been released by WMDC and things seem to be looking brighter for Cas and WR , I can see both sides of the coin and fully understand Wakey fans predicament. Without the necessary Plan B improvements it would be very difficult for Cas to make the top 12 (it's going to be hard enough with them) and Wakey would have been one of the main benefactors from this , so I can understand their frustrations . It would have been the same frustrations from Cas fans had the shoe been on the other foot.

However , perhaps I should also state , that I think the IMG criteria on the whole is really good for the game . Both Wakey and Cas are benefiting from investors and ground improvements and I feel that these are directly due to the new IMG grading structure . The only real issue I have is the catchment area as I believe all criteria should be in the control of the clubs themselves . With the catchment area you have no say in your clubs grading and are unable to improve it . Clubs with a bigger catchment area already benefit in other areas as a direct result of having a larger population to call upon . Other than that I think it is good for the game as a whole , although I would like to see a little more weighting given to on field performance .

Edited February 26 by Taffy Tiger

[Agbrigg]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

 why some Wakey fans might see a disparity.

I know of another disparity

The Wakefield 106 agreement yielded £8.8 M

The Cas 106 agreement is to yield £12 M

[dboy]

23 minutes ago, Agbrigg said:

I know of another disparity

The Wakefield 106 agreement yielded £8.8 M

The Cas 106 agreement is to yield £12 M

Two separate things to be fair.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Taffy Tiger said:

Hi Tommygif , it sounds as though you have more of an idea of the workings going on behind the scene , so you are in a much better position than me to make any observations . Added to that the fact that I am very much coming at it from a Cas angle as well  , I accept that my views may well be skewed a little and I do understand how Wakey fans may be a little aggrieved . 

 

Sadly the IMG process is inevitably going to put fan against fan , and in the same way as I am really pleased that the money has been released by WMDC and things seem to be looking brighter for Cas and WR , I can see both sides of the coin and fully understand Wakey fans predicament. Without the necessary Plan B improvements it would be very difficult for Cas to make the top 12 (it's going to be hard enough with them) and Wakey would have been one of the main benefactors from this , so I can understand their frustrations . It would have been the same frustrations from Cas fans had the shoe been on the other foot.

However , perhaps I should also state , that I think the IMG criteria on the whole is really good for the game . Both Wakey and Cas are benefiting from investors and ground improvements and I feel that these are directly due to the new IMG grading structure . The only real issue I have is the catchment area as I believe all criteria should be in the control of the clubs themselves . With the catchment area you have no say in your clubs grading and are unable to improve it . Clubs with a bigger catchment area already benefit in other areas as a direct result of having a larger population to call upon . Other than that I think it is good for the game as a whole , although I would like to see a little more weighting given to on field performance .

I just know that Wakey had to be very particular with that funding that was allocated to them and how the community aspects of the investment would actually function. From the outside looking in, this doesn't seem to be the case with Cas, but perhaps Wakey didn't have to be that specific.

On IMG, I think this is an example of where a club needs to up its game; indeed they are the only team in Super League whose stadium leaves much to be desired. That they are going for a temporary fix seems to be indicative of the club's attitude and position really more than anything else.

That's not to say that all these actions won't improve WR. They clearly will.

[Tommygilf]

24 minutes ago, Agbrigg said:

I know of another disparity

The Wakefield 106 agreement yielded £8.8 M

The Cas 106 agreement is to yield £12 M

Aside from them being separate things altogether, does that account for inflation?

[Barley Mow]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Aside from them being separate things altogether, does that account for inflation?

Inflation possibly explains it in part.

It is likely to be related to the commercial value of the developments providing the s106 funds - basically the value of the Axiom (Castleford) development will currently be assessed as greater than the Newmarket (Wakefield) development. I don't think the cost of the two stadium developments will be the primary determinant.

What degree the difference in value is down to inflation over the last few years, I don't know.

Edited February 26 by Barley Mow

[Taffy Tiger]

15 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I just know that Wakey had to be very particular with that funding that was allocated to them and how the community aspects of the investment would actually function. From the outside looking in, this doesn't seem to be the case with Cas, but perhaps Wakey didn't have to be that specific.

On IMG, I think this is an example of where a club needs to up its game; indeed they are the only team in Super League whose stadium leaves much to be desired. That they are going for a temporary fix seems to be indicative of the club's attitude and position really more than anything else.

That's not to say that all these actions won't improve WR. They clearly will.

Agree , although the temporary fix is the only option open to us at the moment . The club really don't want to do this as it could end up wasting money , especially with the seats in Princess St stand , but with PP still to be finalised and no money from Axiom until they can guarantee enough take up on their site , there is no chance of the full ground upgrade before the end of this season .

To be fair to Cas , they have tried to sort the stadium for a while now . All was set for a move to a new ground , with PP secured . Axiom were due to build a new retail park and ground for Cas off J32 , but then COVID hit , and during COVID people were forced to change their shopping habits and when COVID was over a retail park was no longer feasible , so back to the drawing board . 

The result , an agreement with Axiom (new development) and WMDC to give WMDC £12.2M (S106) to be used by Cas to upgrade WR once PP was given for both projects . The EA initial objections to WR development sadly slowed the process down even more , leaving us where we are today . 

There does seem to be some light at the end of the tunnel now though , however it is unlikely that a full upgrade will be possible for at least another 2-3 years . With that in mind , and in an attempt to keep SL status , Cas feel that they have no other option but to put Plan B in place. The new stand and facilities at Cas will bring in much needed revenue , so the club would rather be starting the full upgrade now , but as things stand that's not an option. We just have to wait until everything is in place first.

[OMEGA]

On 26/02/2024 at 18:05, Taffy Tiger said:

Hi Tommy , you may be right , we just don't know what the arrangement is with WMDC and Cas . We do know that now  PP has been granted a full upgrade to WR will take place in the future (although we don't know exactly when) and when it does the money would have been released by WMDC anyway . I am only surmising here but perhaps this has something to do with the release of the reslience fund to Cas now . That said we don't know the ins and outs of it , but WMDC seem more than happy to release the money now , which I am sure they wouldn't have done if they didn't have the necessary assurances from Cas that the community would benefit from Plan B prior to Plan A being implemented .

My guess is that Cas have pleaded with WMDC to be allowed to use the £2M for these Plan ‘B’ alterations which will gain them IMG points and maybe save their SL place. In return Cas will have promised to use £2M of any future funding from the Developer for the Community elements that the original £2M was planned for.

Whether that ever actually happens is very doubtful because it would take too much funding away from a future stadium rebuild

[Taffy Tiger]

33 minutes ago, OMEGA said:

My guess is that Cas have pleaded with WMDC to be allowed to use the £2M for these Plan ‘B’ alterations which will gain them IMG points and maybe save their SL place. In return Cas will have promised to use £2M of any future funding from the Developer for the Community elements that the original £2M was planned for.

Whether that ever actually happens is very doubtful because it would take too much funding away from a future stadium rebuild

Hi Omega

 

I have managed to get a bit more clarity and understanding regarding the funding

I think we (myself included) have misinterpreted the wording a little

I now understand it to be two different entities

The funding is for stadium improvements to meet any future RFL requirements . 

'As part of this agreement clubs will need to produce and deliver a community use strategy as part of the funding agreement . This will need to show how clubs will increase community use and support and encouarge the use of grass roots rugby league'

As I am now lead to believe this isn't directly related to stadium use. The resilience fund was given to the 3 clubs on the understanding that they would be shown to increase participation in the game at grass roots level in the area and also benefit the community . There is no specific mention of this being within the stadium

The Tigers Foundation has been doing this over the years and will continue to do so , and this will be documented in the annual reports to WMDC , a further requirement of the resilience fund going forward

Cas have now satisfied all parties concerned that they have met all requriements and as a result of this the £2M has been released to Cas to improve stadium facilities in line with RFL/IMG requirements.

 

 

[PREPOSTEROUS]

8 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

Hi Omega

 

I have managed to get a bit more clarity and understanding regarding the funding

I think we (myself included) have misinterpreted the wording a little

I now understand it to be two different entities

The funding is for stadium improvements to meet any future RFL requirements . 

'As part of this agreement clubs will need to produce and deliver a community use strategy as part of the funding agreement . This will need to show how clubs will increase community use and support and encouarge the use of grass roots rugby league'

As I am now lead to believe this isn't directly related to stadium use. The resilience fund was given to the 3 clubs on the understanding that they would be shown to increase participation in the game at grass roots level in the area and also benefit the community . There is no specific mention of this being within the stadium

The Tigers Foundation has been doing this over the years and will continue to do so , and this will be documented in the annual reports to WMDC , a further requirement of the resilience fund going forward

Cas have now satisfied all parties concerned that they have met all requriements and as a result of this the £2M has been released to Cas to improve stadium facilities in line with RFL/IMG requirements.

 

 

Seems to be a bit of bending the agreement somewhat, fundamentally, all three clubs will have been doing this, but with this decision Fev can use the £2m however they want citing the foundation was as reason for the funding. 

Have to say I have no idea how Trinity are using/have used the funding. Maybe they went down the same path.

[Damien]

 

 

[Hopie]

58 minutes ago, Damien said:

 

 

How much does that reduce the capacity?

[daz39]

I'm presuming they've just bolted seating to the crumbling terracing steps then, will it be strong enough to take them and the drilling etc that i presume will have to be undertaken?

is this just a temporary 'fix' to get IMG points or is it permanent?

[Dave T]

13 minutes ago, daz39 said:

I'm presuming they've just bolted seating to the crumbling terracing steps then, will it be strong enough to take them and the drilling etc that i presume will have to be undertaken?

is this just a temporary 'fix' to get IMG points or is it permanent?

What do you mean by temporary? They'd just lose points if they removed them? 

[Gomersall]

56 minutes ago, daz39 said:

I'm presuming they've just bolted seating to the crumbling terracing steps then, will it be strong enough to take them and the drilling etc that i presume will have to be undertaken?

is this just a temporary 'fix' to get IMG points or is it permanent?

I’d like to think they have done their homework on H and S and not just got Dodgy Dave to whack a few seats in when he had a couple of hours spare.

[PREPOSTEROUS]

2 hours ago, daz39 said:

I'm presuming they've just bolted seating to the crumbling terracing steps then, will it be strong enough to take them and the drilling etc that i presume will have to be undertaken?

is this just a temporary 'fix' to get IMG points or is it permanent?

The seats will be transferred to the main stand once the funding become available. The £2m community funding is being used to enable Cas to get the necessary points while they wait until such time. Sretching the term community use somewhat but WMDC have signed it off apparently. 

[daz39]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

What do you mean by temporary? They'd just lose points if they removed them? 

I meant is there a plan to replace the entire stand if so is putting seating on the crumbling terrace just a temporary measure before that is done or is putting seating on the terracing a permanent thing to gain IMG points.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

58 minutes ago, daz39 said:

I meant is there a plan to replace the entire stand if so is putting seating on the crumbling terrace just a temporary measure before that is done or is putting seating on the terracing a permanent thing to gain IMG points.

The Princess St stand will get some new cladding if the new development ever goes ahead but it is planned to then revert it back to standing. And yes it's being done now just to get IMG points

[daz39]

2 hours ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

The Princess St stand will get some new cladding if the new development ever goes ahead but it is planned to then revert it back to standing. And yes it's being done now just to get IMG points

Thank you for the explanation, hopefully they could raise the roof on it eventually to create a better sight line, and i don't mean vocally