London (Merged Threads)

[Fevrover]

6 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

I am busy this afternoon but happy to help if you have any specific questions. Would probably be easier all round if you just read the document. I've not seen you make any wild assertions about who will get what in the grading so that comment was not aimed at you.

I've no idea  to be honest and thought you might ta.

[glossop saint]

10 minutes ago, Fevrover said:

I've no idea  to be honest and thought you might ta.

Sorry, I don't understand. You don't have any questions? Just want an overview? Or you want me to have questions? 

[wiganermike]

2 hours ago, Archie Gordon said:

How can the final gradings be known by July each year?

I may be wrong but I had always assumed the club grading scores from 2024 onwards (i.e when they actually have an impact on the following season) would be (and need to be) published in mid season (like the licensing announcements were) to give any clubs being promoted/demoted adequate time to recruit a suitable/affordable squad in the knowledge of what division they were to be in the following year.

As such the scores being collated in any given year would be based on the three seasons preceding the year in which they were published and would not include the ongoing season (as they can only be calculated using records for completed seasons). So the indicative scores published this year would be compiled using 2020, 2021 and 2022. The first actual "live" scores that determine the 12 SL clubs that will be released during 2024 will cover seasons 2021, 2022 and 2023. London's promotion season and GF bonus points for example will not feature in their indicative grading score when it is published next week but will form part of their score to be released during 2024 that will determine whether or not they retain their SL place. Using the three previous seasons (rather than the previous 2 and the current season) to compile the grading score means that they are able to be calculated in early season and published mid season.

If I am correct then given the disrupted nature of the 2020 season (and the fact that many clubs didn't have one) it may not feature in the calculations for the indicative grades as it otherwise would or if it does the indicative grades may not be quite as indicative as we all think they will be.

[casrhino]

On 16/10/2023 at 09:43, Tommygilf said:

That is so funny given what was coming out of Keighley at the time

Just hope he's taken his mattress with him this time seeing he left his last one in Keighleys changing room,and come on assistant coach is only a glorified gofer,

[Angelic Cynic]

Seems to put to bed the assertion,made by some,that clubs in Super League have to be full time.

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/exclusive-london-broncos-will-not-be-entirely-full-time-in-2024-following-promotion-back-to-super-league

[Gav Wilson]

Just now, Angelic Cynic said:

Seems to put to bed the assertion,made by some,that clubs in Super League have to be full time.

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/exclusive-london-broncos-will-not-be-entirely-full-time-in-2024-following-promotion-back-to-super-league

I was one... fair enough, I was wrong!

I'm not sure it'll bode all that well for them, mind...

[Angelic Cynic]

2 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

I was one... fair enough, I was wrong!

I'm not sure it'll bode all that well for them, mind...

Off field may present more challenges..

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

I was one... fair enough, I was wrong!

I'm not sure it'll bode all that well for them, mind...

They're going straight back down then

[Fevrover]

1 hour ago, glossop saint said:

Sorry, I don't understand. You don't have any questions? Just want an overview? Or you want me to have questions? 

Overview but i can wait till it all comes out ,cheers.

[Griff]

19 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They're going straight back down then

Maybe.  Maybe not.

On the field performance is no longer everything.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Griff

[Archie Gordon]

1 hour ago, wiganermike said:

I may be wrong but I had always assumed the club grading scores from 2024 onwards (i.e when they actually have an impact on the following season) would be (and need to be) published in mid season (like the licensing announcements were) to give any clubs being promoted/demoted adequate time to recruit a suitable/affordable squad in the knowledge of what division they were to be in the following year.

As such the scores being collated in any given year would be based on the three seasons preceding the year in which they were published and would not include the ongoing season (as they can only be calculated using records for completed seasons). So the indicative scores published this year would be compiled using 2020, 2021 and 2022. The first actual "live" scores that determine the 12 SL clubs that will be released during 2024 will cover seasons 2021, 2022 and 2023. London's promotion season and GF bonus points for example will not feature in their indicative grading score when it is published next week but will form part of their score to be released during 2024 that will determine whether or not they retain their SL place. Using the three previous seasons (rather than the previous 2 and the current season) to compile the grading score means that they are able to be calculated in early season and published mid season.

If I am correct then given the disrupted nature of the 2020 season (and the fact that many clubs didn't have one) it may not feature in the calculations for the indicative grades as it otherwise would or if it does the indicative grades may not be quite as indicative as we all think they will be.

Thanks. That's interesting. It means that we may have often lame ducks - like London will be in 2024 - who know they are going up, but just for one season. 

[Dovster]

4 minutes ago, Griff said:

Maybe.  Maybe not.

On the field performance is no longer everything.

I'm sure Sky will disagree.

[Rovers13]

3 hours ago, glossop saint said:

You have spent plenty of time on these boards since Fev lost to London. Do yourself a favour and have 30 mins off and go and read the IMG document so you know what you are talking about instead of getting things wrong. 

Edit. Tbf a few others could do with following the same advice.

Seen as though you’re a SL fan and know everything tell me who will be your 12 clubs then? And why my assertion of fev c@s and wakey scoring very low on catchment area is wrong? It’s ok having a dig without backing up your dig typical SL fan knows it all and sod the rest. And you wonder why fans couldn’t care less if the big clubs go bust with attitudes like yours. Disagree with me all you like that’s what these forums are for but be civil about it no need for sly digs, no wonder most daren’t post on here but I’m not most I speak my mind I’m the old brigade, not once have I insulted anyone unless I’ve been insulted first so why be petty?. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Rovers13

[The Phantom Horseman]

1 hour ago, wiganermike said:

I may be wrong but I had always assumed the club grading scores from 2024 onwards (i.e when they actually have an impact on the following season) would be (and need to be) published in mid season (like the licensing announcements were) to give any clubs being promoted/demoted adequate time to recruit a suitable/affordable squad in the knowledge of what division they were to be in the following year.

As such the scores being collated in any given year would be based on the three seasons preceding the year in which they were published and would not include the ongoing season (as they can only be calculated using records for completed seasons). So the indicative scores published this year would be compiled using 2020, 2021 and 2022. The first actual "live" scores that determine the 12 SL clubs that will be released during 2024 will cover seasons 2021, 2022 and 2023. London's promotion season and GF bonus points for example will not feature in their indicative grading score when it is published next week but will form part of their score to be released during 2024 that will determine whether or not they retain their SL place. Using the three previous seasons (rather than the previous 2 and the current season) to compile the grading score means that they are able to be calculated in early season and published mid season.

If I am correct then given the disrupted nature of the 2020 season (and the fact that many clubs didn't have one) it may not feature in the calculations for the indicative grades as it otherwise would or if it does the indicative grades may not be quite as indicative as we all think they will be.

Thanks, that's an interesting post and does make some sense (though it means that my earlier post suggesting London might need to reach the play-offs or even Grand Final to remain in the division would need revising!). I can't recall reading anything that would either confirm or refute your theory, so perhaps it does highlight that the publicly available information isn't totally complete.

[wiganermike]

2 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

Thanks. That's interesting. It means that we may have often lame ducks - like London will be in 2024 - who know they are going up, but just for one season. 

I would expect that will largely be an issue just as we transition into the IMG system as we have had this year where London were able to get promoted purely based on on-field performance, immediately before a complete change in the paradigm for gaining (and keeping) a SL place. When we move from 2024 to 2025 we may see 1, 2 or even 3 clubs that have earned a SL place previously dropped to the Championship under the new system. Once that initial threshold has been crossed though movement is likely to be minimal due to the way the criteria are set. There are clubs in the Championship that could grow enough to overtake some of the lower scoring SL incumbents over time but any SL club under threat of being overtaken and losing their place is likely to be able to see it coming over two or more seasons as the score of clubs 13, 14, 15 begin to catch up with their own. Only financial implosion is likely to cause a sudden drop and loss of SL place without it being apparent to all that they are on a downward track over a few seasons. Clubs gaining promotion in future will have done so based on their grading score so will not face the same issue as London will next year.

[Cougarmaniac]

Seems to me that London's promotion has the potential to massively undermine the IMG model because there's no way they can make the top-rated 12 for 2025, even if they win Super League next year. On that basis why invest in what they know is an almost guaranteed single season? It's nuts. 

[Spidey]

47 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

I was one... fair enough, I was wrong!

I'm not sure it'll bode all that well for them, mind...

Hopefully those who are part time have good natured employers in their other jobs when London get Thursday night fixtures

They've probably weighed up that final position next year won’t have that much of an impact when the “top 12” are decided and not spending accordingly. I wonder if any other clubs are considering this also?

[glossop saint]

11 minutes ago, Rovers13 said:

Seen as though you’re a SL fan and know everything tell me who will be your 12 clubs then? And why my assertion of fev c@s and wakey scoring very low on catchment area is wrong? It’s ok having a dig without backing up your dig typical SL fan knows it all and sod the rest. And you wonder why fans couldn’t care less if the big clubs go bust with attitudes like yours. 

Nothing to do with 'my 12 clubs'. Nothing to do with being a fan of a SL club.

It is more to do with you disputing that London will get full points for catchment despite Archie correcting you. As is obvious from Archies posts he has read and digested the document. I disagree with him in parts about it but that is more about the effects of it not how it will work.

Not sure what dig I had. It would just be useful of you actually read the document you are discussing. 

[Rovers13]

8 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

Nothing to do with 'my 12 clubs'. Nothing to do with being a fan of a SL club.

It is more to do with you disputing that London will get full points for catchment despite Archie correcting you. As is obvious from Archies posts he has read and digested the document. I disagree with him in parts about it but that is more about the effects of it not how it will work.

Not sure what dig I had. It would just be useful of you actually read the document you are discussing. 

That’s fair enough but why didn’t you put it like that In first place if I’m wrong I want it pointing out, isn’t that what forums and discussions are for to inform people and bring them up to speed etc?. As for the IMG documents I’ve read a lot albeit not all but I’d hazard a guess if you put 1k people in a room they wouldn’t agree on everything. As folk can interpret them differently to others. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Rovers13

[wiganermike]

13 minutes ago, Cougarmaniac said:

Seems to me that London's promotion has the potential to massively undermine the IMG model because there's no way they can make the top-rated 12 for 2025, even if they win Super League next year. On that basis why invest in what they know is an almost guaranteed single season? It's nuts. 

It would only undermine the system if IMG graded London as outside the top 12 and then decided to keep them in SL anyway. The situation that London face is the reason why some posters have suggested that a sensible approach for them would be to put aside as much of the SL cash as they can so as to put more in when (likely) back in the Championship in 2025 where its impact will be greater. London's situation is not helped by their low supporter base and their poor on-field performance in 2022 as these will count against them in the grading calculations at least until the 2022 campaign is no longer counted in the grading.

Edited October 20, 2023 by wiganermike

[Griff]

9 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Hopefully those who are part time have good natured employers in their other jobs when London get Thursday night fixtures

They've probably weighed up that final position next year won’t have that much of an impact when the “top 12” are decided and not spending accordingly. I wonder if any other clubs are considering this also?

Everybody doesn't work 9 to 5, Monday to Friday, you know.

[glossop saint]

4 minutes ago, Rovers13 said:

That’s fair enough but why didn’t you put it like that In first place if I’m wrong I want it pointing out, isn’t that what forums and discussions are for to inform people and bring them up to speed etc?. As for the IMG documents I’ve read a lot albeit not all but I’d hazard a guess if you put 1k people in a room they wouldn’t agree on everything. 

I merely suggested that you read IMGs actual document not read about it. Archie did point it out. I'd suggest paying a lot of attention to what he says. Also the Phantom Horseman. Reading it yourself woukd help you form your own valid opinion as opposed to taking heed of the shock jock journalists who always seem to spread inaccurate information. 

[Spidey]

4 minutes ago, Griff said:

Everybody doesn't work 9 to 5, Monday to Friday, you know.

thanks for pointing this out - if they worked evenings or weekends that would be an even bigger problem for a SL player

[Rovers13]

5 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

I merely suggested that you read IMGs actual document not read about it. Archie did point it out. I'd suggest paying a lot of attention to what he says. Also the Phantom Horseman. Reading it yourself woukd help you form your own valid opinion as opposed to taking heed of the shock jock journalists who always seem to spread inaccurate information. 

I’ve a decent idea Hence why I said the 12 clubs will be the usual 11 plus wakey, that’s my own assertion not a journalist one from what information I do have myself. It also doesn’t mean my assertion is right if I’m wrong like I said point these things out to me all I said is London will not be a top 12 club imo. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Rovers13

[glossop saint]

1 minute ago, Rovers13 said:

I’ve a decent idea Hence why I said the 12 clubs will be the usual 11 plus wakey, that’s my own assertion not a journalist one from what information I do have myself. 

I agree that it will be the same as the season just finished, though with Toulouse potentially pushing Wakefield close depending on various financial side which we are not privy to.