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2024 attendance thread


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18 hours ago, dboy said:

10k Sts fans + 20,000 people who travel out of St H, to watch pro soccer? 30k active soccer & RL attendees?

Population 180,000 = almost 20% of the population!

Extrapolate this nationally (55m), you're saying over 10 million people attend pro RL and pro soccer each week.

Liverpool's population is 500k - if 20% of those attended pro soccer, Liverpool and Everton's attendance would be 100k without away fans. Where will they put the fans from St Helen's!?

That's before you extend the principle to Chester, Chorley, Morecambe, Southport, anywhere, everywhere...

Of course these are hack figures, but they demonstrate completely the flaw of the principle you are suggesting.

I'd suggest that just about all the 500k people in Liverpool would describe themselves as a soccer fan too.

There's a lot of flaws in your logic here. 

Firstly, you're assuming that those that attend rugby league teams only come from those towns. Do Cas only attract people from Cas? Saints from St Helens? Or do people come from out of town also? This reduces that figure down. 

Secondly, there are numerous football clubs people support in these places, not just the big neighbours.

Thirdly, if we include amateur clubs, the total number of people involved in not just spectating, but participating and volunteering at amateur level will dwarf rugby if both codes combined in all of these areas at every age level.

Rugby is second in every town to football in practically every metric.

For the record, Hull City averaged 21,980 this season. That's more than FC and KR combined and for more games.

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1 hour ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Hate to break it to you pal but there are plenty of people who go and watch games who don't feel your (and mine) passion for the game

Some people go out of habit 

Some people go because their partner, friend, parent or kid wants to 

Some people go because they enjoy watching a RL match but don't want to connect with it much in the media as it bores them

Some people like an 'event' 

Some people know they want to meet mates there and have a drink 

Some people just want to get out of the house!

Etc 

For all the above reasons people ARE "just visiting" RL..it isn't their all consuming passion.....and there a lot of those types of fans out there ...up niryj and down south 

Some of the reasons above are why I regularly watch live football despite not loving the game very much 

And thank the lord for these casual fans because if it relied on people as obsessed as us then RL truly would be dead ....there aren't enough of us

Fair to say it defines some people, especially in some communities, but you are right that there are many general sports fans who watch it regularly, or more occasionally like me, and for whom it's not an identity or life and death. You're right that the game might struggle without that following, but even more I think it's the case that the sport would grow by attracting more occasionals, semi-regulars, rather than creating more diehards. Just my opinion.

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3 hours ago, N2022 said:

Fair to say it defines some people, especially in some communities, but you are right that there are many general sports fans who watch it regularly, or more occasionally like me, and for whom it's not an identity or life and death. You're right that the game might struggle without that following, but even more I think it's the case that the sport would grow by attracting more occasionals, semi-regulars, rather than creating more diehards. Just my opinion.

100% want as many people as possible watching TGG 

I think casual fans watching is great a d I have snared lots of folk myself into being semi regular fans of the game 

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6 hours ago, EggFace said:

So Soccer dwarfs both codes of Rugby.....nice one RFU 😠

Yes it does, measured in mass, and that will never change.

It's a socially/morally/financially bankrupt, filthy, dishonest business.

But people ,like cos anyone can play/watch/understand it.

And TV money/corruption ensures it's the biggest sporting phenomenon outside of the USA.

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6 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Hate to break it to you pal but there are plenty of people who go and watch games who don't feel your (and mine) passion for the game

Some people go out of habit 

Some people go because their partner, friend, parent or kid wants to 

Some people go because they enjoy watching a RL match but don't want to connect with it much in the media as it bores them

Some people like an 'event' 

Some people know they want to meet mates there and have a drink 

Some people just want to get out of the house!

Etc 

For all the above reasons people ARE "just visiting" RL..it isn't their all consuming passion.....and there a lot of those types of fans out there ...up niryj and down south 

Some of the reasons above are why I regularly watch live football despite not loving the game very much 

And thank the lord for these casual fans because if it relied on people as obsessed as us then RL truly would be dead ....there aren't enough of us

Your first line include people who watch soccer! The proportions remain the same, whatever the sport, whatever the event. It's sociology.

People attend ALL kinds of events for exactly those reasons. I give you Wimbledon tennis, as a reference point.

RL has relatively few "casual" fans, because we are often woeful at creating the sense of "event" that's something we need to be better at.

But in places like Cas, Leigh, East Hull, etc follow RL because its engrained culture.

They are rugby "towns".

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5 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

There's a lot of flaws in your logic here. 

Firstly, you're assuming that those that attend rugby league teams only come from those towns. Do Cas only attract people from Cas? Saints from St Helens? Or do people come from out of town also? This reduces that figure down. 

Secondly, there are numerous football clubs people support in these places, not just the big neighbours.

Thirdly, if we include amateur clubs, the total number of people involved in not just spectating, but participating and volunteering at amateur level will dwarf rugby if both codes combined in all of these areas at every age level.

Rugby is second in every town to football in practically every metric.

For the record, Hull City averaged 21,980 this season. That's more than FC and KR combined and for more games.

Congratulations for not reading the thread properly and for certainly not understanding either statistics or sociology.

No, I explicitly point out that fans come from outside "catchment". EG Cas drawing from the east of their designated catchment... Selby/Goole and everything in between etc.

Your second point - no. pro-sport attendees can only be a % of population - it's finite. If one place has above average sports attendance, then somewhere else has lower than average sports attendance.

Third point - we are talking about attendance at elite sport - not watching fat blokes playing for the Dog & Duck (or Hull FC as we like to call them these days).

Your fourth point - "practically every metric" is not "every metric" - that's the point.

Lastly, that's close then isn't it. Hull FC around 12k; HKR about 10k??? = 22k v 21k, but with soccer generally benefitting from higher away fan support - can you argue that Hull is a soccer city?

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9 hours ago, dboy said:

Your first line include people who watch soccer! The proportions remain the same, whatever the sport, whatever the event. It's sociology.

People attend ALL kinds of events for exactly those reasons. I give you Wimbledon tennis, as a reference point.

RL has relatively few "casual" fans, because we are often woeful at creating the sense of "event" that's something we need to be better at.

But in places like Cas, Leigh, East Hull, etc follow RL because its engrained culture.

They are rugby "towns".

So can we boil our discussion down to two views

1. RL has lots of casual fans in both it's heartlands and beyond (my view) 

2. RL has proportionality few casual fans. Most are hardcore especially in the heartlands (your view)

Correct?

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

So can we boil our discussion down to two views

1. RL has lots of casual fans in both it's heartlands and beyond (my view) 

2. RL has proportionality few casual fans. Most are hardcore especially in the heartlands (your view)

Correct?

 

 

 

No, you're misrepresenting me.

"1. RL has lots of casual fans in both it's heartlands and beyond (my view)"  - You are correct.

"2. RL has proportionality few casual fans. Most are hardcore especially in the heartlands (your view)" - No. Communities in the smaller RL locations tend to be the hardcore ones, Cas is undoubtedly a rugby town, whilst, even with it's larger support, Leeds isn't a "rugby city".

Don't lose the point that my bone of contention was the notion that, under no metric can places be described as rugby towns.

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4 hours ago, dboy said:

Don't lose the point that my bone of contention was the notion that, under no metric can places be described as rugby towns.

If we're describing rugby towns as places where the game is very popular, sure. 

If we're describing rugby turns as places where the game is the most popular, no.

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4 hours ago, dboy said:

No, you're misrepresenting me.

"1. RL has lots of casual fans in both it's heartlands and beyond (my view)"  - You are correct.

"2. RL has proportionality few casual fans. Most are hardcore especially in the heartlands (your view)" - No. Communities in the smaller RL locations tend to be the hardcore ones, Cas is undoubtedly a rugby town, whilst, even with it's larger support, Leeds isn't a "rugby city".

Don't lose the point that my bone of contention was the notion that, under no metric can places be described as rugby towns.

So you are saying...

In Castleford rugby league is more popular than football? 

I hate to say it but I bet it isn't . Therefore Cas is more a 'football town' than a 'rugby' one

It doesn't mean Cas is not a hotbed and RL isn't popular ....it just isn't as popular as football.....same as Bath, Wakefield , Bedford etc 

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2 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

So you are saying...

In Castleford rugby league is more popular than football? 

I hate to say it but I bet it isn't . Therefore Cas is more a 'football town' than a 'rugby' one

It doesn't mean Cas is not a hotbed and RL isn't popular ....it just isn't as popular as football.....same as Bath, Wakefield , Bedford etc 

You said that under no metric is anywhere a rugby town. So, despite me giving clear examples of how it is, you refuse to open your eyes.

You say Cas more a football town than it is a rugby town - on which metric?

If you measure how many people from Cas attend top level RL v attend top level soccer, then Cas is demonstrably a rugby town.

Cas have about 6k attendees; there is no way more than 6k leave Cas each week to watch pro soccer.

Cas population is 45k.

12k people attending either pro-soccer, or pro RL would be more than 25% of the towns population - that just cannot be the case. It's statistically unachievable.

 

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On 16/05/2024 at 22:59, dboy said:

10k Sts fans + 20,000 people who travel out of St H, to watch pro soccer? 30k active soccer & RL attendees?

Population 180,000 = almost 20% of the population!

Extrapolate this nationally (55m), you're saying over 10 million people attend pro RL and pro soccer each week.

Liverpool's population is 500k - if 20% of those attended pro soccer, Liverpool and Everton's attendance would be 100k without away fans. Where will they put the fans from St Helen's!?

That's before you extend the principle to Chester, Chorley, Morecambe, Southport, anywhere, everywhere...

Of course these are hack figures, but they demonstrate completely the flaw of the principle you are suggesting.

I'd suggest that just about all the 500k people in Liverpool would describe themselves as a soccer fan too.

Your figures are out which may be my fault when I say 100% I mean I’m certain not that twice as many people do it. 
 

You also couldn’t extrapolate any figures  as St Helens is in a fairly unique position having four big premier league clubs equally spread around them. Whilst also becoming an overflow town for Liverpool. 

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, dboy said:

You said that under no metric is anywhere a rugby town. So, despite me giving clear examples of how it is, you refuse to open your eyes.

You say Cas more a football town than it is a rugby town - on which metric?

If you measure how many people from Cas attend top level RL v attend top level soccer, then Cas is demonstrably a rugby town.

Cas have about 6k attendees; there is no way more than 6k leave Cas each week to watch pro soccer.

Cas population is 45k.

12k people attending either pro-soccer, or pro RL would be more than 25% of the towns population - that just cannot be the case. It's statistically unachievable.

 

You and Bedfordshire Bronco seem to be at cross purposes here. In the same way you can lose a few battles but win a war,  RL can win a few metrics but lose overall popularity.

Obviously in Cas or Wakey, more people watch RL than football   and I agree I doubt more leave these towns to watch football than watch RL, but Bedfordshire used the term holistic,  by which he meant the whole gamut of how people interact with a  sport. If we want to be pedantic we can say no town is football or RL orientated because probably no town or City in the UK has over 50% people who care about either. Lots of people couldn't care less about sport. If we include in the term ," being a football fan", or " being a RL fan", to include going to matches, anywhere, amateur volunteers and players,  casual goers,  participants at all ages and television only watchers, then Bedfordshire Bronco is right , every town or city football is number 1. But if we go metric by metric,  then RL wins out , in certain defined metrics,in certain defined locations,  but not very many places or metrics. 

Edited by HawkMan
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5 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Your figures are out which may be my fault when I say 100% I mean I’m certain not that twice as many people do it. 
 

You also couldn’t extrapolate any figures  as St Helens is in a fairly unique position having four big premier league clubs equally spread around them. Whilst also becoming an overflow town for Liverpool. 

Yes, locations without their own soccer teams are different (especially StH, as you say), but if you suggest that more people from those places travel out to watch soccer, then the places that DO have soccer teams have to have proportionately fewer people going to the soccer. Do you see the paradox?

The town of StH can't provide the huge amount of pro-sports fans suggested, certainly not so far outside of the normal distribution. The principle is, there are only so many fans out there, and they are evenly spread on a distribution curve, remembering that actually, the places WITH the pro-soccer clubs tend to provide a higher proportion of fans for their own club.

I.E. A greater proportion of people living in Leeds attend LUFC games, than the proportion of people living in Wakefield who attend LUFC games. 

I'm sure loads of people in StH follow the surrounding soccer teams, but could you justify calling it more of a soccer town than a rugby town?

This whole rather pointless discussion is because of the nonsense statement that "no where could be called a rugby town under any metric".

There are lots of ways of measuring this, in which many places are - they do tend to be the smaller, traditional, non-pro soccer club places though.

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17 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

You and Bedfordshire Bronco seem to be at cross purposes here. In the same way you can lose a few battles but win a war,  RL can win a few metrics but lose overall popularity.

Obviously in Cas or Wakey, more people watch RL than football   and I agree I doubt more leave these towns to watch football than watch RL, but Bedfordshire used the term holistic,  by which he meant the whole gamut of how people interact with a  sport. If we want to be pedantic we can say no town is football or RL orientated because probably no town or City in the UK has over 50% people who care about either. Lots of people couldn't care less about sport. If we include in the term ," being a football fan", or " being a RL fan", to include going to matches, anywhere, amateur volunteers and players,  casual goers,  participants at all ages and television only watchers, then Bedfordshire Bronco is right , every town or city football is number 1. But if we go metric by metric,  then RL wins out , in certain defined metrics,in certain defined locations,  but not very many places or metrics. 

Saw this after I made my last post.

Agree with just about everything...except, you (BedBronco) can't say "under any metric", then say "holistically".

Holistic would be a specified metric.

I'm saying the metric (measure) "locally not holistically", shows places are indeed rugby places.

It depends on the metrics you choose.

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, dboy said:

You said that under no metric is anywhere a rugby town. So, despite me giving clear examples of how it is, you refuse to open your eyes.

You say Cas more a football town than it is a rugby town - on which metric?

If you measure how many people from Cas attend top level RL v attend top level soccer, then Cas is demonstrably a rugby town.

Cas have about 6k attendees; there is no way more than 6k leave Cas each week to watch pro soccer.

Cas population is 45k.

12k people attending either pro-soccer, or pro RL would be more than 25% of the towns population - that just cannot be the case. It's statistically unachievable.

 

Ok...there may be a metric that make RL more popular than football in Cas....maybe people.who have watched a pro sport live recently....even thay i am sceptical of as every Cas fan i've ever met seema to love Leeds United 

But if you measured across all areas and came to a summary about what sport is more popular then I would be very confident that football beats it in...even in Cas 

I would be VERY confident that across all people ...more people in Cas watch more football than RL in total (on telly and live) , more football is played and more people would name football as there number one sport 

There will of course be huge crossover.....I'd guess a very large proportion of Cas fans also watch football...and many will attend games but still count football as there main love 

Also in your 6k you've assumed all of them come from within Cas. A VERY big assumption. Plenty from the surrounding areas will be coming in so it won't be 6/45 %

By the way....I wish I was wrong 

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7 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Ok...there may be a metric that make RL more popular than football in Cas....maybe people.who have watched a pro sport live recently....even thay i am sceptical of as every Cas fan i've ever met seema to love Leeds United 

But if you measured across all areas and came to a summary about what sport is more popular then I would be very confident that football beats it in...even in Cas 

I would be VERY confident that across all people ...more people in Cas watch more football than RL in total (on telly and live) , more football is played and more people would name football as there number one sport 

There will of course be huge crossover.....I'd guess a very large proportion of Cas fans also watch football...and many will attend games but still count football as there main love 

Also in your 6k you've assumed all of them come from within Cas. A VERY big assumption. Plenty from the surrounding areas will be coming in so it won't be 6/45 %

By the way....I wish I was wrong 

I'd also point out myself as a case in point

Football I'd count as my fourth sport (behind RL, union and cricket) ...I don't really like it

In the last week I have 

-Watched my kid train at football

-Watched my kid play football this morning 

-Watched MK lose in the play off final last Saturday (it is cheap and the stadium is great and easy to drive to) . I am a RL obsessive but it's pro sport on my doorstep....many Cas fans are probably the same in reverse 

-Watched Celtic this afternoon before the CC game (because it was on SKY and it was something to do) 

I don't like the game that much but it pervades my life and massive amounts of people's lives in our country.....and RL is no match for it...even in Cas

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4 hours ago, dboy said:

Cas have about 6k attendees; there is no way more than 6k leave Cas each week to watch pro soccer.

Did you not just say this to me earlier after a rather patronising post about me not knowing "sociology and statistics"...

19 hours ago, dboy said:

No, I explicitly point out that fans come from outside "catchment". EG Cas drawing from the east of their designated catchment... Selby/Goole and everything in between etc.

So if you acknowledge that some fans travel from outside Cas, why have you implied all 6k of Cas' supporters come from the town itself? 

 

4 hours ago, dboy said:

Cas population is 45k.

12k people attending either pro-soccer, or pro RL would be more than 25% of the towns population - that just cannot be the case. It's statistically unachievable

You've made the mistake here of assuming that none of the RL fans attend football. Either that or you've double counted them, which would make comparing them to the town's population pointless.

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48 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

There will of course be huge crossover.....I'd guess a very large proportion of Cas fans also watch football...and many will attend games but still count football as there main love 

Also in your 6k you've assumed all of them come from within Cas. A VERY big assumption. Plenty from the surrounding areas will be coming in so it won't be 6/45 %

Didn't see you'd made the same points as me. 

These are 2 huge flaws in his use of statistics. 

I suppose we can also take into account that some fans from within Cas may also travel outside of Cas to watch other rugby league clubs. 

 

Are we including semi pro clubs also out of interest?

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5 hours ago, dboy said:

Yes, locations without their own soccer teams are different (especially StH, as you say), but if you suggest that more people from those places travel out to watch soccer, then the places that DO have soccer teams have to have proportionately fewer people going to the soccer. Do you see the paradox?

The town of StH can't provide the huge amount of pro-sports fans suggested, certainly not so far outside of the normal distribution. The principle is, there are only so many fans out there, and they are evenly spread on a distribution curve, remembering that actually, the places WITH the pro-soccer clubs tend to provide a higher proportion of fans for their own club.

I.E. A greater proportion of people living in Leeds attend LUFC games, than the proportion of people living in Wakefield who attend LUFC games. 

I'm sure loads of people in StH follow the surrounding soccer teams, but could you justify calling it more of a soccer town than a rugby town?

This whole rather pointless discussion is because of the nonsense statement that "no where could be called a rugby town under any metric".

There are lots of ways of measuring this, in which many places are - they do tend to be the smaller, traditional, non-pro soccer club places though.

Again I’ll restate it I’m sure more people travel outside St Helens to watch football teams than who actually watch Saints. Have you never noticed how the further scousers travel from Liverpool the more scouse they become. I’m sure there was a coverage a few years ago where only 6000 Liverpool season ticket holders have a Liverpool post code. How does that fit into your curve. 

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