Chrispmartha Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: I think the point is, who have they replaced Smith with for 3/4's of this season, your club was bumbling along with a coach that you championed more than once against the opinion of your some of your fellow fans on these pages, and there is a notable difference in the way you are playing. That was luck more than anything that the right coach was available for us and able to come immediately. If we were bumbling along then what were Leigh doing who were below us?, maybe they should have sacked Lam if that's your point? My opinion of Rohan Smith is irrelevant in the discussion aswelll Harry so not sure why you are trying to score points on that issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said: Well Wakefield are doing it under IMG so that's a pointless argument. Yes Leigh did it in 22 but it was a 'gamble' wasn't it, it paid off but it hasn't for many other clubs. Do you honestly believe that Matt Ellis would have done any different under P&R being young ambitious and having the finances to make it happen? No it wasn't a gamble, it was a 5 year plan Mr Beaumont proposed and he said if it fails this year we go around next year, he brought in Adrian Lam who brought over SH players more than capable of winning the Championship then halfway through '22 secured expierienced SL players to compliment the squad for SL '23. Edited September 10 by Harry Stottle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 6 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said: That was luck more than anything that the right coach was available for us and able to come immediately. If we were bumbling along then what were Leigh doing who were below us?, maybe they should have sacked Lam if that's your point? My opinion of Rohan Smith is irrelevant in the discussion aswelll Harry so not sure why you are trying to score points on that issue. I think you know very well what happened at Leigh in winning only one of their first 9 games, it was the availability of players through injuries that prevented the clubs progress, fast forward to the last 10 games and they have lost only one with players becoming available. Sacking Mr Lam would not have been very conducive with your long term planning would it, in fact he was given an extended contract whilst going through the bad run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrispmartha Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Sacking Mr Lam would not have been very conducive with your long term planning would it, in fact he was given an extended contract whilst going through the bad run. Exactly my point, long term planning is better isn't it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrispmartha Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 19 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Do you honestly believe that Matt Ellis would have done any different under P&R being young ambitious and having the finances to make it happen? No it wasn't a gamble, it was a 5 year plan Mr Beaumont proposed and he said if it fails this year we go around next year, he brought in Adrian Lam who brought over SH players more than capable of winning the Championship then halfway through '22 secured expierienced SL players to compliment the squad for SL '23. I've not got a clue what Matt Ellis would or wouldn't have done, the fact is he did do what he did under the IMG system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrispmartha Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 20 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: I think you know very well what happened at Leigh in winning only one of their first 9 games, it was the availability of players through injuries that prevented the clubs progress, fast forward to the last 10 games and they have lost only one with players becoming available. Sacking Mr Lam would not have been very conducive with your long term planning would it, in fact he was given an extended contract whilst going through the bad run. Also Harry, maybe if relegation was in Play Derek night not have been as patient with Lam, we don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
binosh Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 (edited) Well we are nearly 2 years under the guidance of IMG and the most successful club in SL of the last 5 years is asking for more central funding, sooner or later IMG are going to have to justify their price tag and start to bring in some incremental revenue rather than just rearranging the he deck chairs on the Titanic. Edited September 10 by binosh 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREPOSTEROUS Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 Saints wanting more money not less so doubt we'll see 14 clubs anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said: And I expect that more below SL will follow them when this system gets a grip. That's just speculation.. what we currently have is facts.. now the system change may well not fix the issues (and we all know, don't we, that this is only part of what IMG have in their plans) but the current system is hardly a resounding success proven by what is actually happening, rather than speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrispmartha Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 20 minutes ago, binosh said: Well we are nearly 2 years under the guidance of IMG and the most successful club in SL of the last 5 years is asking for more central funding, sooner or later IMG are going to have to justify their price tag and start to bring in some incremental revenue rather than just rearranging the he deck chairs on the Titanic. Not sure Saints can blame IMG for their failing finances, and their chairman says he supports them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 25 minutes ago, binosh said: Well we are nearly 2 years under the guidance of IMG and the most successful club in SL of the last 5 years is asking for more central funding, sooner or later IMG are going to have to justify their price tag and start to bring in some incremental revenue rather than just rearranging the he deck chairs on the Titanic. Yes they are.. and I dont think you would find anyone disagreeing with you on that.. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chrispmartha said: I've not got a clue what Matt Ellis would or wouldn't have done, the fact is he did do what he did under the IMG system There is an awful lot of "what ifs" on the thread. The butterfly effect (roughly) states that if one thing changes then all other speculation is irrelevant (paraphrasing)... you change 1 aspect (ie live P&R) and not only does the attitude of 1 club change but all clubs do. In the same way as people speculate that xyz wouldnt have wont the league that year if it had been a straight "top wins" championship becuase they came 3rd in the play offs.. but if you change the rule then all attitudes and every single game changes throughout the season... I love "What ifs" of history for counterfactual fun but to try and use them for full on justifications seems quite odd as you just dont know what the outcome would have been by changing one tiny element, especially when dealing with humans and thought processes/actions. Edited September 10 by RP London Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 15 minutes ago, RP London said: That's just speculation It's all speculation RP, will IMG's methods work, some are pro, some are indifferent, and some don't think so. Only time will tell until then as you say it's just speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 15 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said: Not sure Saints can blame IMG for their failing finances, and their chairman says he supports them. Like you said re Wakefield Chris, this falling finances for Saints has happened under IMG, you can't split that argument two ways to suit your way of thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 30 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: It's all speculation RP, will IMG's methods work, some are pro, some are indifferent, and some don't think so. Only time will tell until then as you say it's just speculation. But thats just not true is it (as i pointed out). At the moment we have facts and the facts are that what we are doing now is failing clubs and is causing issues and has been for many years with many clubs having major financial issues. So there does need to be some form of change to try to solve this, its just speculation at the moment about whether this is the one that will work.. but what we cannot do is say that what we have now is fine and working that would just go against all the evidence we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phiggins Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 59 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said: Not sure Saints can blame IMG for their failing finances, and their chairman says he supports them. The statement says he supports them, suspect it also means that he puts them, alongside RLCom, firmly on the hook for improving finances across the game as a whole. At the moment, this relationship is seeing money going out. Either to IMG directly, or partners that IMG have facilitated (e.g. the marketing automation software brought up the other week). At some point, a return on this investment is going to be needed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 6 minutes ago, phiggins said: The statement says he supports them, suspect it also means that he puts them, alongside RLCom, firmly on the hook for improving finances across the game as a whole. At the moment, this relationship is seeing money going out. Either to IMG directly, or partners that IMG have facilitated (e.g. the marketing automation software brought up the other week). At some point, a return on this investment is going to be needed. People should read the whole statement and think about what he says. FACT: this is what he says. He supports them etc... PURE OPINION: I suspect etc.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 17 minutes ago, phiggins said: At some point, a return on this investment is going to be needed. That'd be why it's a twelve year contract and we haven't even implemented the core structural league change yet. 3 Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phiggins Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 5 minutes ago, JohnM said: People should read the whole statement and think about what he says. FACT: this is what he says. He supports them etc... PURE OPINION: I suspect etc.... And your point being? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phiggins Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 Just now, gingerjon said: That'd be why it's a twelve year contract and we haven't even implemented the core structural league change yet. 12 year contract, but at what point within that contract can we expect to see returns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrispmartha Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 20 minutes ago, phiggins said: The statement says he supports them, suspect it also means that he puts them, alongside RLCom, firmly on the hook for improving finances across the game as a whole. At the moment, this relationship is seeing money going out. Either to IMG directly, or partners that IMG have facilitated (e.g. the marketing automation software brought up the other week). At some point, a return on this investment is going to be needed. Of course it is im not sure anyone would say any different. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 5 minutes ago, phiggins said: 12 year contract, but at what point within that contract can we expect to see returns? I've absolutely no idea. Not before one of the key things that they put in place to deliver those returns has even started though. 1 Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RigbyLuger Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 13 minutes ago, gingerjon said: That'd be why it's a twelve year contract and we haven't even implemented the core structural league change yet. No, they were supposed to give everyone billions from day one, and because they haven't, we're kicking off! Hunslet's latest statement is an odd one, in so much as they haven't been close to being in Super League since 1999, have they? Nothing has really changed for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phiggins Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 4 minutes ago, gingerjon said: I've absolutely no idea. Not before one of the key things that they put in place to deliver those returns has even started though. Is that true though? We are close to two and a half years into the partnership, with the initial focus on "competition restructuring, content production and innovation, domestic and international distribution of media rights" We all know about the restructuring and when that kicks in. But what about the other stuff. How is the content production going? Is anything being produced with a tangible ROI (e.g. anything that can help promote events like internationals or finals), what about international media rights? Where they given away or sold? I don't think I've heard a single club say that they've been given a clear vision of what will be gained from this partnership after years 3, 6, 9 and 12. Unless we're pinning everything on the betting and streaming rights that is to come in a later phase. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Gordon Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 28 minutes ago, phiggins said: 12 year contract, but at what point within that contract can we expect to see returns? It now seems as if it will be the *third* TV contract in the IMG era that is the important one. The first one has happened, it will be too early for anything material to change the second set of negotiations, and so we look forward to something tangible around 2030. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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