War of the Roses (Again)

[sam4731]

53 minutes ago, fenster said:

When the tri-nations was a thing I remember the French playing both Australia and New Zealand in France when both nations weren’t playing against England and if I remember correctly didn’t disgrace themselves in both games so why can’t the French head down under and play PNG, Fiji and the Cook Islands when they aren’t playing fixtures in the pacific bowl?

[Tonka]

On 01/09/2024 at 12:37, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

1. Put on a fixture vs France with minimal effort/marketing
2. Lack of competitiveness and/or audience leads to calls to return to Yorks v Lancs
3. Put on a Yorks vs Lancs fixture with minimal effort/marketing
4. Lack of competitiveness and/or audience leads to calls to return to an All Stars/Exiles game
5. Put on a fixture vs All Stars/Exiles with minimal effort/marketing
6. Lack of competitiveness and/or audience leads to calls to return to a game vs France
7. Repeat Step 1

There's a common denominator here why many of these 'attempts' continually prove unsuccessful...

You missed out “Have it on a Tuesday in a 10k capacity stadium”

[crashmon]

so I have not read the 15 pages of threads ,,,,,

BUT

we on this forum complain about how the NRL favours Origin over International games (see thread on pacific champs for instance), and how the NRL are holding the international game back with the obession of Origin..

AND here we are saying we should scrap the yearly games vs France for a M62 Origin game.

I mean.   SERIOUSLY ......
 

Edited September 2, 2024 by crashmon

[Hopie]

4 hours ago, crashmon said:

so I have not read the 15 pages of threads ,,,,,

BUT

we on this forum complain about how the NRL favours Origin over International games (see thread on pacific champs for instance), and how the NRL are holding the international game back with the obession of Origin..

AND here we are saying we should scrap the yearly games vs France for a M62 Origin game.

I mean.   SERIOUSLY ......
 

England v France is exactly the same as Oz v NZ, or the Ashes series, so your point is obviously completely correct.

[bobbruce]

4 hours ago, Hopie said:

England v France is exactly the same as Oz v NZ, or the Ashes series, so your point is obviously completely correct.

Yeah it pretty much is the same as an ashes series in that one side is totally dominant. Will still expect it to be played the help the weaker country out. 

[Gerrumonside ref]

Sam Burgess weighs in on the Roses concept on TRL:

 

“SAM BURGESS believes Super League needs to get creative to grow as a competition, and is advocating a return of the War of the Roses concept and an end to loop fixtures, both of which have been proposed by the game’s consultants IMG.

While the NRL is thriving and continuing to expand, Super League is struggling to break out of its heartland areas. 

Wigan and Warrington will play a historic match in Las Vegas next year at Allegiant Stadium, as part of the NRL’s bid to crack America, but Wolves coach Burgess says the English game needs to do more to become more popular.

“We’ve got to be creative,” he said.

“Vegas is one thing, but I also think we have to accept and grow some of our players. Get our players to be more household names and encourage their personalities. 

“Let’s not shy away from player’s personalities. Let’s let them be themselves. We need to be able to reach an audience we’re not reaching, because it’s such a beautiful game to watch. 

“I think it’s entertaining. We have to get creative.” 

Burgess, a dual-code international, is one of Rugby League’s most well-known figures of the past 15 years after spending nearly a decade down under with South Sydney.

The War of the Roses between Yorkshire and Lancashire was held regularly between 1895 and 2003, but was axed 21 years ago because of falling attendances.

Despite that, the 35-year-old would like to see the return of Yorkshire against Lancashire as England’s own version of State of Origin.

“I’d really like to see some sort of State of Origin Yorkshire-Lancashire thing, but make the players partners,” he said. 

“Let them understand the business side of it. Get the players out to sell it, get them involved with the marketing and make it a great week. 

“A carnival-week, get them visiting schools. Get to different places with the Yorkshire camp, the Lancashire camp. Get amongst the community and with that try and get the national media across it and then you’re growing the international game, you’re picking an international team from it. 

“Then your top 40 players in the league are playing two intense games against each other, so they’re getting better and there’s more connection there. And then when they get to play Australia and New Zealand it would be something great. I think we have to get creative and we also we all need to get on board.”

Burgess believes that reducing the overall number of games, and their impact on players, would make for a more attractive product.“

Is he right?

[Gerrumonside ref]

FWIW I am unsure what the best strategy is rugby league in the global north.

One thing for sure without the buy-in of the players and clubs neither Roses nor internationals versus France will work or are working.

‘War of the Roses’ with every player fit and willing to play would from a pure competitive perspective provide the best preparation for England/GB places.

The result of the match is in doubt too between Lancashire-Yorkshire which is the single biggest buzzkill about playing England-France (here or in France).

I’ve been in both camps down the years and there’s pros and cons for both as to which should be tried and focused on, but the Roses concept is just edging it for me.

 

 

[RP London]

14 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

FWIW I am unsure what the best strategy is rugby league in the global north.

One thing for sure without the buy-in of the players and clubs neither Roses nor internationals versus France will work or are working.

‘War of the Roses’ with every player fit and willing to play would from a pure competitive perspective provide the best preparation for England/GB places.

The result of the match is in doubt too between Lancashire-Yorkshire which is the single biggest buzzkill about playing England-France (here or in France).

I’ve been in both camps down the years and there’s pros and cons for both as to which should be tried and focused on, but the Roses concept is just edging it for me.

 

 

I agree, we can go backwards and forwards on it all, "rest of the world", France or Roses but in the end no matter what we do we always half cook it.. that doesnt help anyone. 

If the likes of Burgess get behind whatever it is then we can make it work, it needs total and complete buy in from everyone otherwise why would anyone outside of the sport buy in. 

Breaking it outside of our own niche may take a little time, we would need good matches, the "bit of niggle" that came with Origin early on etc.. those things start to make people notice and take a look, but that means knowing that it will be during/post the matches that will see the interest sparked and therefore you need to go again and use "last time around" as the selling point next time.. one offs or even 2 or 3 offs dont work.

[Dave T]

There are a lot of claims that clubs/players didn't support the concept last time. 

These were the teams in that last game at Odsal:

Yorks v Lancs:

1 - Leon Pryce vs Paul Wellens

2 - Mark Calderwood v Brian Carney

3 - Gareth Ellis v Martin Gleeson

4 - Keith Senior v Gary Connolly

5  - David Hodgson v Paul Johnson

6 - Chris Thorman v Kevin Sinfield

7 - Richard Horne v Paul Deacon

8 - Paul Anderson v Danny Sculthorpe

9 - Matt Diskin v Terry Newton

10 - Ryan Bailey v Mark Hilton

11 - Lee Harland v Mike Forshaw

12 - Jamie Peacock v Andy Farrell

13 - Ryan Hudson v Sean O'Loughlin

Subs:

Burrow, Gilmour, Walker, Lynch

vs

Prescott, Aspinwall, Cunningham, Tickle

In bold are players who played in that year's Ashes series. So 14 players from the GB team.

Notable omissions from the Roses game were Fielden, McDermott, Long and Sculthorpe, plus Morley played in Sydney at the time.

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Sam Burgess weighs in on the Roses concept on TRL:

 

 

“SAM BURGESS believes Super League needs to get creative to grow as a competition, and is advocating a return of the War of the Roses concept and an end to loop fixtures, both of which have been proposed by the game’s consultants IMG.

While the NRL is thriving and continuing to expand, Super League is struggling to break out of its heartland areas. 

Wigan and Warrington will play a historic match in Las Vegas next year at Allegiant Stadium, as part of the NRL’s bid to crack America, but Wolves coach Burgess says the English game needs to do more to become more popular.

“We’ve got to be creative,” he said.

“Vegas is one thing, but I also think we have to accept and grow some of our players. Get our players to be more household names and encourage their personalities. 

“Let’s not shy away from player’s personalities. Let’s let them be themselves. We need to be able to reach an audience we’re not reaching, because it’s such a beautiful game to watch. 

“I think it’s entertaining. We have to get creative.” 

Burgess, a dual-code international, is one of Rugby League’s most well-known figures of the past 15 years after spending nearly a decade down under with South Sydney.

The War of the Roses between Yorkshire and Lancashire was held regularly between 1895 and 2003, but was axed 21 years ago because of falling attendances.

Despite that, the 35-year-old would like to see the return of Yorkshire against Lancashire as England’s own version of State of Origin.

“I’d really like to see some sort of State of Origin Yorkshire-Lancashire thing, but make the players partners,” he said. 

“Let them understand the business side of it. Get the players out to sell it, get them involved with the marketing and make it a great week. 

“A carnival-week, get them visiting schools. Get to different places with the Yorkshire camp, the Lancashire camp. Get amongst the community and with that try and get the national media across it and then you’re growing the international game, you’re picking an international team from it. 

“Then your top 40 players in the league are playing two intense games against each other, so they’re getting better and there’s more connection there. And then when they get to play Australia and New Zealand it would be something great. I think we have to get creative and we also we all need to get on board.”

Burgess believes that reducing the overall number of games, and their impact on players, would make for a more attractive product.“

Is he right?

No, there is absolutely nothing creative about resurrecting this fixture.

I don't buy the intensity argument either, a top SL game will be more intense than any Roses match. This is not Origin no matter how much some want it to be.

[hunsletgreenandgold]

Some great players there! 

Not read this thread back, after my self-imposed hiatus from this forum. Has anybody had a go at naming sides if it was getting played this season? 

[hunsletgreenandgold]

Also - has anybody bothered to ask the players what their thoughts are? Might be a start - it's been 21 years since it was last played, are they keen for it as opposed to loop fixtures and/or afterthought international fixtures or do they feel like it's a dead-in-the-water concept? 

[17 stone giant]

I see that gingerjon is lurking, so I just want to make clear how much in favour of this idea I am.

I just can't decide whether a three match series is enough, or whether we should be aiming for a best of seven like the baseball world series.

I guess we can finalise that once we've decided if it's going to be Lancashire v Yorkshire or Manchester Originals v Northern Superchargers.

[RP London]

23 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Also - has anybody bothered to ask the players what their thoughts are? Might be a start - it's been 21 years since it was last played, are they keen for it as opposed to loop fixtures and/or afterthought international fixtures or do they feel like it's a dead-in-the-water concept? 

I'd say this is vital too.. what do the players actually want to be doing. The more they want to do it the more likely they are to talk it up on socials and in interviews etc. 

The buy in angle, and the bit I took from Burgess, is not all about which players are available etc but about talking it up, really pushing it, pushing the players out into the media and communities to push the concept and for me no matter which game we go for out of any/all of the options people mention and debate it is this that is vital to its success. If we just put the game on and expect the same people to turn up then no matter what the game is we will get about 7-10k and nothing will change. 

[Sports Prophet]

For anyone citing historical WOTR failures as a destiny to failure for any resurrection…

NSW v QLD was failing and in the 70s, pitiful attendances, little media coverage and clubs opposed to releasing players meant the concept was on it’s deathbed.

Then, with one minor tweak, the SOO was born and the rest as they say is history.

I am supportive of the WOTR concept and believe with a little imagination it can succeed both commercially and with the public as well as improve the representative playing opportunities for England.

Wales and France each feature prominently in the WOTR story and incorporating them each in the concept I think would be beneficial commercially and help to see the sport flourish beyond the English heartlands. I just hope whatever they come up with, they give it a real good crack, rather than the half hearted attempts we see the RFL traditionally muster up.

Edited September 3, 2024 by Sports Prophet

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

For anyone citing historical WOTR failures as a destiny to failure for any resurrection…

NSW v QLD was failing and in the 70s, pitiful attendances, little media coverage and clubs opposed to releasing players meant the concept was on it’s deathbed.

Then, with one minor tweak, the SOO was born and the rest as they say is history.

I am supportive of the WOTR concept and believe with a little imagination it can succeed both commercially and with the public. Wales and France each feature prominently in the WOTR story and incorporating them each in the concept I think would be beneficial commercially and help to see the sport flourish beyond the English heartlands. I just hope whatever they come up with, they give it a real good crack, rather than the half hearted attempts we see the RFL traditionally muster up.

None of the conditions that made SOO a success exist here. It is an anomoly in the sporting world. People choose to ignore this.

Edited September 3, 2024 by Damien

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, RP London said:

I'd say this is vital too.. what do the players actually want to be doing. The more they want to do it the more likely they are to talk it up on socials and in interviews etc. 

The buy in angle, and the bit I took from Burgess, is not all about which players are available etc but about talking it up, really pushing it, pushing the players out into the media and communities to push the concept and for me no matter which game we go for out of any/all of the options people mention and debate it is this that is vital to its success. If we just put the game on and expect the same people to turn up then no matter what the game is we will get about 7-10k and nothing will change. 

What a great way to have top English players head back to their community clubs either side of the Pennines to build the WOTR story and profile of those individual clubs.

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

For anyone citing historical WOTR failures as a destiny to failure for any resurrection…

NSW v QLD was failing and in the 70s, pitiful attendances, little media coverage and clubs opposed to releasing players meant the concept was on it’s deathbed.

Then, with one minor tweak, the SOO was born and the rest as they say is history.

I am supportive of the WOTR concept and believe with a little imagination it can succeed both commercially and with the public as well as improve the representative playing opportunities for England.

Wales and France each feature prominently in the WOTR story and incorporating them each in the concept I think would be beneficial commercially and help to see the sport flourish beyond the English heartlands. I just hope whatever they come up with, they give it a real good crack, rather than the half hearted attempts we see the RFL traditionally muster up.

I've highlighted the bit which I think is somewhat downplaying what actually happened.

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

It is an anomoly in the sporting world. People choose to ignore this.

I could do my post about it again?

Point out that no other State of Origins *in Australia* have worked, for example.

[Sports Prophet]

33 minutes ago, Damien said:

None of the conditions that made SOO a success exist here. It is an anomoly in the sporting world. People choose to ignore this.

None of the conditions that make SOO a success exist in Formula 1 either. Hasn’t stopped Formula 1 from being successful.

It’s lucky I’m not advocating a replica of Origin.

In saying that, let’s consider if there are actually no replicable conditions between SOO and WOTR…

- representative football based on territorial boundaries - check

- a sport without a national profile - check

- a peak representative opportunity below national representation - check

- a lack of competitive national neighbours - check

- one heavily parochial team and the other with a less fervent following -check

There’s a little bit more there than perhaps you think.

Edited September 3, 2024 by Sports Prophet

[Click]

1 minute ago, Sports Prophet said:

None of the conditions that make SOO a success exist in Formula 1 either. Hasn’t stopped Formula 1 from being successful.

It’s lucky I’m not advocating a replica of Origin.

Huh? What an awful comparison.

[Dave T]

What was the minor tweak?

[Sports Prophet]

21 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I could do my post about it again?

Point out that no other State of Origins *in Australia* have worked, for example.

SOO concepts in both AFL and RU were successful but each ceased for their own reasons.

RL SOO is a success. That success will have no impact on the success or failure of a WOTR. All I was demonstrating is one long standing representative sporting event turning from being a failure to an all encompassing success which has turned the governing body which runs it, into the biggest Rugby National Governing Body in the world.

With that, I have demonstrated how the previous failings of an event are not an assurance of failure in the future.

Edited September 3, 2024 by Sports Prophet

[Sports Prophet]

12 minutes ago, Dave T said:

What was the minor tweak?

Eligibility. It changed from State of Participation to State of Origin.

Edited September 3, 2024 by Sports Prophet

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Eligibility.

In what way?