War of the Roses (Again)

[hunsletgreenandgold]

47 minutes ago, crashmon said:

So I am a big advocate for Growing the International game.  If fact I do not think RL can survive in its current form long term without it.  This is why talking about Lancs v Yorks, or exiles games, or M62 Truckers vs M62 Speedfreaks should not even be on the table until we can get International RL off its ######.

Here are some hard facts.  Lets take the basket case which is Elite Club Rugby Union in England

1) Club union teams going to the wall, in a far worse state than League teams.

2) Premiership in Union is an even more closed shop that RL.  Not only do you have to meet specificed criteria to be even eligible for promotion (a la IMG and League), but you then have to have a 2 legged playoff at the bottom team in Prem to get promoted. So its more stacked for the existing Premiership teams than League is for Superleague teams

3) The elite club competition in Club RU, the European Champions Cup, is broadcast to the masses on that far reaching platform Premier sports. I know we moan but the SL is on Sky (with some games on BBC).  I know which platform I would prefer to be on.  

So all of the above should tell you that League should be far more attractive than Union to sponsers ?  Yes?

WRONG

This week in BBC, England Union agreed a funding deal for 8 seasons at 33M a year for each Premiership club.  We Negioated 20M at year with sky. So the basket case which us Union, which at at club level is behind SL in almost every metric, gets 13M a year more? Because they have an International Brand, International games, which make lots of Money and gets lots of viewership.   RL will never get 33M a year from Sky.  In fact if we keep at 20M in the next deal I'd actually see that as a success.

So lets focus on getting the INternational game going.  We are seeing small steps like Pacfic nations, and now France v Lebanon series.  The probalm is that England as an outlier.  They are far too good in the location they are based (Northern Europe).  And 12K miles from the location they need to be to play meanginful opposition (Pacific). So its a rock and a hard place.

Personally I think England should push to play in Pacific region in the next 4-5 years every year. As playing home games in the M62 is not going to get the level of viewership they need to help get more funding.  You need to shorten the SL season so it ends a couple of weeks before the NRL season. Have the England team travel down.  And somehow get invited to the pacific comps.  Then you can have EU cups with the France, Leb, Wales, Serbia etc

I've nothing agaisnt club representative matches.  But right now i see this as discussing what colout paint to paint the bedroom, while the house is about to fall down due to subsidance.  All focus has to be building the Internation game.  As that in the end (as Union is showing us) is how you going to get more funding going forward

I agree that RL as a whole (basically NRL and RFL/SL) should be prioritising the international game, to get RL more globally recognised and getting more into the national conscience. That said, you're barking up the wrong tree in believing club RU is 'behind SL in almost every metric' - the opposite is in fact the truth. We could learn a lot from how union go about things, at almost every level of the game. 

[KiwiRL]

My silly idea. If you do do it, start it as a one off annual game.

You're not going to get a massive crowd, so why not a unique one that looks great on TV?

Huddersfield is close to the border between Yorkshire and the old Lancashire, and has a pretty picturesque union club. 

So on or around the 27th of August each year you celebrate the birthday of the great game with the big War of the Roses game at the Huddersfield union club (blasphemy I know).

Slap some temporary seating at the ends of the ground and fill the hill up, 4-5k would be a cracking atmosphere.  

Load the broadcast up with drone shots over the game/hill towards the train bridge in the background and it would look spectacular.

You'd think North West Engalnd v Y&tH might be a better idea though, Northwest encompasses the more modern England no? 

 

 

 

 

[Gerrumonside ref]

42 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Interestingly, the last time we played these games they did tend to be decent close games, but they were relatively high scoring games, maybe lacking in intensity as you say. They did also try and copy the same 'brawl at the first scrum' thing that was a feature of Origin at the time.

I think there were a few things that undermined it last time.

Stadium choice. We played at Headingley and Wigan, which are good grounds, but with only 10k in they just lack any kind of atmosphere, they look like smaller events than Wigan v Huddersfield for example. The last year we used Odsal, which was stupid.

County of Origin branding. By following the Aussie branding you are creating a direct comparison to State of Origin. It's always gonna happen to an extent, but by forcing comparisons, you are just gonna look like a poor relation to one of the biggest events in Aussie sport. Roses is a brand in itself.

Event staging. These things just weren't events. They were just a game of Rugby that got smaller crowds than regular games and stripped out many of the best players (overseas stars at each club). Nowadays to launch a new event I think you need to go the extra mile. Just opening the turnstiles and picking 34 players ain't enough.

 

 

Agree with all of this.

My own two penneth is with the availability of stats and the ever present opinions on players now we could do worse than copy the way baseball in America engages with its fans for its all star game by having a fan vote on aspects of who will play for the two Roses teams.

With the availability of technology, we could shortlist the players or do it over two phases whereby the coaching staff won’t lose control, but the voting system will allow fans to feel a part of who pulls on the shirt for Lancashire or Yorkshire.

I once was fortunate enough to be at a Chicago Cubs baseball match in the mid 90s where a simple punchcard was given with the programme for picking my all star team selections and I thought then what a great idea it was to have some say in establishing the two teams.

With today’s modern technology it could be even easier to do this and a simple and easy way to engage the fan base with the concept of a Roses match and to have people feel they have ‘skin’ in the game.

Edited September 5, 2024 by Gerrumonside ref

[KiwiRL]

21 minutes ago, KiwiRL said:

 

You'd think North West Engalnd v Y&tH might be a better idea though, Northwest encompasses the more modern England no? 

 

 

 

 

 

To take my silly idea even further. If it ever gets to a three game series, take game two (North West home game) to the Pit Field ground in Whitehaven. Same deal, slap a few temporary stands up and let the location do the heavy lifting for the broadcast. 

Game three, in keeping with the theme of picturesque grounds, at the Odsal. Haha.

 

Edited September 5, 2024 by KiwiRL
Grammar

[Archie Gordon]

17 minutes ago, KiwiRL said:

 

To take my silly idea even further. If it ever gets to a three game series, take game two (North West home game) to the Pit Field ground in Whitehaven. Same deal, slap a few temporary stands up and let the location do the heavy lifting for the broadcast. 

Game three, in keeping with the theme of picturesque grounds, at the Odsal. Haha.

 

I don't think this is complete madness tbh.

I love the look of the NRL country games. I wouldn't go with your venues but would be in favour of holding games in 'traditional' grounds that hold sub-10k. 

[crashmon]

1 hour ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

I agree that RL as a whole (basically NRL and RFL/SL) should be prioritising the international game, to get RL more globally recognised and getting more into the national conscience. That said, you're barking up the wrong tree in believing club RU is 'behind SL in almost every metric' - the opposite is in fact the truth. We could learn a lot from how union go about things, at almost every level of the game. 

In how club RU is run at the ELITE level is what I said (eg looking at Premiershop and championship leagues only).  I agree at grassroutes level RU is very strong

[OriginalMrC]

2 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

I agree that RL as a whole (basically NRL and RFL/SL) should be prioritising the international game, to get RL more globally recognised and getting more into the national conscience. That said, you're barking up the wrong tree in believing club RU is 'behind SL in almost every metric' - the opposite is in fact the truth. We could learn a lot from how union go about things, at almost every level of the game. 

Professional club RU is a complete an utter mess. We could learn a lot about how NOT to run our sport. 

Anyway on topic. Nearly 50% of people have answered the poll as a yes. One thing I have learned from this is nearly 50% of RL fans need their heads examined.

 

[hunsletgreenandgold]

1 hour ago, crashmon said:

In how club RU is run at the ELITE level is what I said (eg looking at Premiershop and championship leagues only).  I agree at grassroutes level RU is very strong

Yeah I still disagree with you - can you give examples? You only focused on the bottom of Prem plays top of Championship....didn't RL have that very same concept? But aside from that, how exactly are is SL run so much better? 

19 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

Professional club RU is a complete an utter mess. We could learn a lot about how NOT to run our sport. 

See above.

[OriginalMrC]

1 minute ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Yeah I still disagree with you - can you give examples? You only focused on the bottom of Prem plays top of Championship....didn't RL have that very same concept? But aside from that, how exactly are is SL run so much better? 

See above.

Not going to take this off topic. If you do your own research you'll find its been well documented over the last 5 years that RU is in a huge financial black hole. It's the worst run professional sport in the country (and that's saying a lot!). Come over to the cross code forum we have some things to tell you....

[hunsletgreenandgold]

2 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

Not going to take this off topic. If you do your own research you'll find its been well documented over the last 5 years that RU is in a huge financial black hole. It's the worst run professional sport in the country (and that's saying a lot!). Come over to the cross code forum we have some things to tell you....

I'll pass - cheers. Btw, I didn't make this cross-code. Will leave it there as agreed this is off-topic

[crashmon]

1 hour ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Yeah I still disagree with you - can you give examples? You only focused on the bottom of Prem plays top of Championship....didn't RL have that very same concept? But aside from that, how exactly are is SL run so much better? 

See above.

I did not want to turn this into League vs Union. That was not the intention here.

My point was more that if RU did not have a strong international game, they would not have been able to get a deal of 33M a year based on the club game alone.  That if SL wants to get more than 20M a year just staying with clubs and adding some M62 Origin game is not going to move the needle on this.

Thats the only point i want to make here, not get diverted on none related matters to this thread

[Tommygilf]

Perhaps some of the administrative absurdity faced by our cousins over the hill is this example of the Lancashire Cup final where a team from Cheshire played opponents from Greater Manchester in Merseyside...

[Hopie]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Perhaps some of the administrative absurdity faced by our cousins over the hill is this example of the Lancashire Cup final where a team from Cheshire played opponents from Greater Manchester in Merseyside...

By that logic York isn't in Yorkshire.

[Ackroman]

The competition needs to be called "The Draft". 2 coaches pick their best squad of 17 from a theoretical budget from any UK RL competition/club for any player of any nationality. Think of it like a cross between soccer aid and origin.

Big venue, charitable leanings (MND?), TV rights.

You could also have "The Draft"- Legends, women, etc

Credit 40:20 mag. BTW

[sam4731]

14 minutes ago, Ackroman said:

The competition needs to be called "The Draft". 2 coaches pick their best squad of 17 from a theoretical budget from any UK RL competition/club for any player of any nationality. Think of it like a cross between soccer aid and origin.

Big venue, charitable leanings (MND?), TV rights.

You could also have "The Draft"- Legends, women, etc

Credit 40:20 mag. BTW

Replacement for Magic?

[17 stone giant]

28 minutes ago, Ackroman said:

The competition needs to be called "The Draft". 2 coaches pick their best squad of 17 from a theoretical budget from any UK RL competition/club for any player of any nationality. Think of it like a cross between soccer aid and origin.

Big venue, charitable leanings (MND?), TV rights.

You could also have "The Draft"- Legends, women, etc

Credit 40:20 mag. BTW

What are the team names?

[RigbyLuger]

14 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

What are the team names?

Team A and Team B.

[sam4731]

27 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

What are the team names?

I think in situations like this, the precedent is to name them after the coaches.

[JonM]

Shirts vs Skins?

[Hopie]

Good idea : )

[sam4731]

8 hours ago, Hopie said:

Good idea : )

"It works at every other level but it couldn't possibly work in SL"

[17 stone giant]

Interesting. Is this the first time that the women have played an origin match?

Is it because of IMG (I think) suggesting that the Roses should be brought back?

Are we likely to see a men's version, perhaps sometime next year as England are away in Australia for the Autumn?

[sam4731]

41 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

Interesting. Is this the first time that the women have played an origin match?

Is it because of IMG (I think) suggesting that the Roses should be brought back?

Are we likely to see a men's version, perhaps sometime next year as England are away in Australia for the Autumn?

No it’s been played since 2014. It’s been on hiatus since COVID but has made a comeback this year. Lancashire won in Dewsbury earlier in the season.

[RigbyLuger]

Barrow mentioned earlier this year using it as a test trial.

[sam4731]

It occurred to me that some concerns over holding a Roses game could appeased by having a 2 week international window. Roses in week 1 and England vs France in week 2. That way we're not sacrificing the international game for the Roses game and Catalans/TO both get that week off that they see as a disadvantage over other teams.

I know it doesn't alleviate all concerns over the match but as far as I'm concerned, more Rep games can only be a good thing.