Championship 2025 Onwards

[Hopie]

I expect, that like the rest of the English game, the level of income and interest will continue to fall in the vicious circle of increasing focus on trying to sell more and more (multiple shirts, increasing ticket prices etc) to a smaller and smaller audience with the occasional short sighted move (free/heavily discounted tickets, one off partnerships etc) to bringing in new audiences.
Effectively cutting off the link to the main competition doesn't make it stronger in its own right for many people, it removes some of the interest in the aims of those in the competition, hence the last two Hunslet games were more interesting to me then the next Wakefield one.

[The Phantom Horseman]

10 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

Agree , you might be right , however the top Championship club in any given season will have at least a 0.25 bonus (2 SL Places) and will have a chance of making SL . They may need to be a Category A though by then to achieve SL status , but if they do then they will have strong foundations to build on in order to remain in SL .

How often in the past have we seen the yo-yo effect where teams have come up from the Championship one season only to be relegated the following season . The IMG criteria should now mean that any team coming up from Championship is in a much better position to stay up the following season .

I agree that the old system was badly flawed. But so is this one.

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

2 hours ago, gingerjon said:

They might be but not enough for it to be worth the change. This system is designed (imperfectly - we can agree on that) that only when a club is obviously better - not on potential but on reality - will they replace another.

And, like I say, this isn’t a secret or a trick. It is very obviously the purpose.

This system does not define reality over potential. It judges clubs over its own defined boundaries. A club could outperform another club on performance, attendance, finance and facilities and still get done on population or having a larger stadium. I agree, it can only have been set up this way for a purpose, but there appears to be that little thought gone into it that you can drive a coach and horses through it. Still, Goole will be happy when they find out Bridlington is in their catchment area.

[Taffy Tiger]

48 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

I agree that the old system was badly flawed. But so is this one.

I think there are some flaws in this system , there are in most , but time will tell how effective it is . I do think that tweaks will be made to the scoring system some time in the future though . I guess the key will be if any future changes are for the better . We are just going to have to wait and see I guess

Edited October 19, 2024 by Taffy Tiger

[The Phantom Horseman]

1 minute ago, Taffy Tiger said:

I think there are some flaws in this system , there are in most , but time will tell how effective it is . I do think that tweaks will be amde to the scoring system some time in the future though . I guess the key will be if any future changes are for the better . We are just going to have to wait and see I guess

Indeed. I'm not as radically opposed to the idea of the IMG system as some, but I think we've partly ended up here because minimum standards weren't enforced anywhere near as rigidly as they should have been. The incumbency bias and the catchment area scoring (because if the system is there to encourage clubs to improve you need to assess them on areas where it's possible to improve) are my two biggest bugbears about it.

[Taffy Tiger]

21 minutes ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

This system does not define reality over potential. It judges clubs over its own defined boundaries. A club could outperform another club on performance, attendance, finance and facilities and still get done on population or having a larger stadium. I agree, it can only have been set up this way for a purpose, but there appears to be that little thought gone into it that you can drive a coach and horses through it. Still, Goole will be happy when they find out Bridlington is in their catchment area.

I do agree with you on a few points . I do think that all system criteria should be something that clubs can better themselves on , so would agree with you regarding catchment area in particular . Whether the catchment area ultimatley decides on who gets into SL or not would seem unfair , however I do think that the IMG criteria will make clubs much stronger going forward and able to sustain an all round higher level of performance in all areas.

 

Teams joing in SL now and any future Cat A clubs are going to be much better equipped for the future than they would be under the current P&R structure . However , and at the end of the day , that's only my opinion . Again time will tell , but I do think that IMG have to be given time before we can say whether it's been a success or not . I think most of us would agree that something has to change , but that it won't change overnight . I for one wouldn't mind IMG still being involved in 10 years time , as that would mean that they had been a success . What we have to be careful of is a knee-jerk reaction wherby people start to think that if nothing has changed after next TV deal then get rid of IMG . It's going to take much longer than that to get it right . 

[Taffy Tiger]

5 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

Indeed. I'm not as radically opposed to the idea of the IMG system as some, but I think we've partly ended up here because minimum standards weren't enforced anywhere near as rigidly as they should have been. The incumbency bias and the catchment area scoring (because if the system is there to encourage clubs to improve you need to assess them on areas where it's possible to improve) are my two biggest bugbears about it.

Hi TPH , have just posted something similar above in reply to JH regarding catchment area and would agree with you that teams should be able to have some input/influence in all criteria . 

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

1 hour ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

Indeed. I'm not as radically opposed to the idea of the IMG system as some, but I think we've partly ended up here because minimum standards weren't enforced anywhere near as rigidly as they should have been. The incumbency bias and the catchment area scoring (because if the system is there to encourage clubs to improve you need to assess them on areas where it's possible to improve) are my two biggest bugbears about it.

Another 'fault' is that too many of the criteria are effectively on/off switches rather than actual measurements of (and reward for making) steady progress.

[DEANO]

You’d have to be pretty stupid to not realise its much easier to accrue img points if your already in super league. Just another method of keeping it a closed shop. London points have gone up massively because they’ve spent a year in super league 

[StandOffHalf]

12 hours ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

Indeed. I'm not as radically opposed to the idea of the IMG system as some, but I think we've partly ended up here because minimum standards weren't enforced anywhere near as rigidly as they should have been. The incumbency bias and the catchment area scoring (because if the system is there to encourage clubs to improve you need to assess them on areas where it's possible to improve) are my two biggest bugbears about it.

I completely agree. Well said.

[Tommygilf]

7 hours ago, DEANO said:

You’d have to be pretty stupid to not realise its much easier to accrue img points if your already in super league. Just another method of keeping it a closed shop. London points have gone up massively because they’ve spent a year in super league 

Course it is.

This system is explicitly designed as such that dropping a club out of SL is worth it to the sport on proven, not just potential, metrics.

[Sports Prophet]

16 hours ago, JohnM said:

Championship 2025 onwards.

I forsee a much stronger emphasis from the clubs to establish a higher, better marketed and more positive league, with a collective identity, sense of purpose and confidence in its own ability.  I expect them to work hard to prove that  the competition is well worth winning in it own right.

Yeah, I would like to see the division expanded to include a few of the strong League 1 clubs and then change the structure of the pyramid below Championship.

[Sports Prophet]

Trying to keep IMG points out of this discussion and more focus on the potential of the Championship as a standalone second tier product and how that product is improved to a a point of sustainability and attractiveness for any future expansion opportunities.

[gingerjon]

11 hours ago, DEANO said:

 Just another method of keeping it a closed shop. London points have gone up massively because they’ve spent a year in super league 

And yet London are going to be relegated.

So how is it a closed shop?

[DEANO]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

And yet London are going to be relegated.

So how is it a closed shop?

That’s quite simple to answer. They didn’t invest in a team to stay up because they knew they were relegated before the season started

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, DEANO said:

That’s quite simple to answer. They didn’t invest in a team to stay up because they knew they were relegated before the season started

So it's not a closed shop.

[DEANO]

Yes because they’ve got the team they wanted in

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

So it's not a closed shop.

London are not being 'relegated' because they finished bottom.. And it will effectively be a closed shop from 2025 onwards.

Edited October 20, 2024 by Les Tonks Sidestep

[The Blues Ox]

4 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Trying to keep IMG points out of this discussion and more focus on the potential of the Championship as a standalone second tier product and how that product is improved to a a point of sustainability and attractiveness for any future expansion opportunities.

The Championship only has value to fans of teams that play in it. Other than that its a second tier of a minority sport that is probably closer to going back to amateur than it is to more teams going full time.

[gingerjon]

40 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

London are not being 'relegated' because they finished bottom.. And it will effectively be a closed shop from 2025 onwards.

But if a team can leave it against their will then it’s not a closed shop.

[DEANO]

Ok tell me which team outside sl can gain enough points to get into the top flight and which current team in sl can lose enough points to be relegated

[Wakefield Ram]

6 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Trying to keep IMG points out of this discussion and more focus on the potential of the Championship as a standalone second tier product and how that product is improved to a a point of sustainability and attractiveness for any future expansion opportunities. 

I'm not sure how reducing/removing the chance of promotion to SL will improve anything for the Championship. It will not encourage expansion. A number of Championship clubs are already in financial trouble. If you truly want clubs to be sustainable, then wage bills at many clubs would need to fall. In the final round, three clubs couldn't even field 17 players.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

4 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

A number of Championship clubs are already in financial trouble. If you truly want clubs to be sustainable, then wage bills at many clubs would need to fall.

That's been the case for as long as I've been following the game (35+ years)

[Wakefield Ram]

17 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

That's been the case for as long as I've been following the game (35+ years)

That's true, so the idea that the Championship can somehow become a great standalone competition which is financially sustainable is not based on any reality. 

[gingerjon]

52 minutes ago, DEANO said:

Ok tell me which team outside sl can gain enough points to get into the top flight and which current team in sl can lose enough points to be relegated

We don't know what the points are yet. We don't know who the 12 are yet. We don't know how those in the roughly 4 clubs who will be outside the 12 but who are the ones who have SL aspirations under any system will react or how far off they will be.

Once we know that, I'll come back to this.

But that doesn't make it a closed shop - because there is a way in, and out.