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The Phantom Horseman

"The trouble with referees is they aren't accountable"

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Robert Hicks (who oversaw forwardpass-gate at St Helens) will be refereeing at Dewsbury this weekend, and Liam Moore (who reffed Catalans/Wigan) will be at Batley, though they have a video ref and touch judge gig respectively on Friday in SL.

If anything, you could argue that refs are treated at least as harshly as players and coaches...one poor game and you're dropped (or at least, demoted). As it should be, many will say, but it doesn't tend to get highlighted as much as a player being dropped.

 

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35 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

Robert Hicks (who oversaw forwardpass-gate at St Helens) will be refereeing at Dewsbury this weekend, and Liam Moore (who reffed Catalans/Wigan) will be at Batley, though they have a video ref and touch judge gig respectively on Friday in SL.

If anything, you could argue that refs are treated at least as harshly as players and coaches...one poor game and you're dropped (or at least, demoted). As it should be, many will say, but it doesn't tend to get highlighted as much as a player being dropped.

 

There needs to be alot more respect shown to the refs in Rugby League...THEY DO A DIFFICULT JOB! .

One of the things that stands out for me as a relatively new fan to League is the constant bemoaning and criticism of the ref and touch judges.....this is poorly done and a sad reflection on the current game....it needs to be cleaned up and quick for the good of the game.

Some clubs seem to have a default position that, if they lose, its always the refs fault.   This is troubling since it has become ingrained in some clubs; it is childish behaviour especially when espoused by management. The current standard of referring in League is very high, mistakes will be made sometimes, but match refs are never biased or crooked.  They are to be beyond reproach in this regard and they have their own internal means of quality control; leave them to it, they are professionals.

I wish to thank all the refs and touch judges for their participation in the game, your efforts are appreciated greatly by the silent majority.  The outstanding games you officiate could not go forward without you.

THANK YOU! 

Edited by Kayakman
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You’ll never ever stop criticism of refs so no point even going there , it is what it is at the core of the game for right or wrong . And the sentiments pleading for change get nodded at sagely and people like them , but ultimately it’s hypocritical as most or everyone at times does it . Inside and outside clubs . Rugby League  is like all sport - where’s there’s officials there’s comment , criticism and controversy . That’s sport , it’ll never change and why would we want it there’d be no craic on forums ! Football , cricket whatever .One thing I’d argue with is that the current standard of officiating is very high , if you’re out n about or watching on telly it just ain’t . It’s thin gruel a lot of the time and that’s a worry 

Edited by DavidM

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I think the main gripe is the inconsistency both in the same game and across the competition. I know how often I have had a moan at a ref at the game and then seen he has made a correct call when watching at home on the TV. It also helps when you can listen to a ref talking and warning players for persistent minor misdemeanours so you can understand what may seem a pedantic penalty better.

 

It would also help if the rules where clearer , for example the obstruction

 

I would never want to ref a televised game as the scrutiny is immense.

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I agree that the current quality of refereeing isn't very high, but before we demote them we should ask 2 questions:

- will it make them better at their job?

- is there someone else to do their job who is as good/better?

If the answer is no, we are just acting to make us feel better without actually fixing anything

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Excuse my ignorance but how are refereeing performances monitored? I know in some other sports there is a scoring system and referees can be promoted and demoted the same as teams.

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27 minutes ago, fevtom said:

Excuse my ignorance but how are refereeing performances monitored? I know in some other sports there is a scoring system and referees can be promoted and demoted the same as teams.

  https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/life-super-league-referee-take-10696400


     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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I do not any true R.L. fan thinks a Refs job is easy. It certainly is not but all supporters ask is consistency.Lately several games on Sky certainly have not had it.

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2 hours ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

Robert Hicks (who oversaw forwardpass-gate at St Helens)

 Don't forget 'rubbingneckgate' as well.

:rolleyes:


         SL Steve Prescott Man of Steel 2016 - Danny Houghton  SL Top Gun 2016/2017 - Marc Sneyd (83%/89% goal success)

         SL Hit Man 2016/2017 - Danny Houghton (1,289/1,123 tackles)  SL Club of the Year 2016 - Hull FC

         SL Coach of the Year 2016 - Lee Radford   RL Challenge Cup Winners 2016/2017 - Hull FC

 

                                                                      All in all, not a bad couple of years, I suppose...

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1 hour ago, fairfolly said:

I do not any true R.L. fan thinks a Refs job is easy. It certainly is not but all supporters ask is consistency.Lately several games on Sky certainly have not had it.

The decision of trained, unbiased, monitored,  observed on the spot Refs and touch judges against the opinons of partisan fans often 50 metres or 50 miles from the action,  egged on by commentators who spend most of the time trying to prove the ref is wrong. 

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Four legs good - two legs bad

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Are we sure we aren't reading too much into this?

I looked on the RFL website and all six SL games are being refereed by referees who are regular SL referees. It would appear there are now eight referees (plus Bentham, who presumably is injured) who are considered be acceptable or qualified for that level - only six of them can referee in SL on any given week!

Whether WE consider them suitable as SL referees is not the issue ;)

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It would be interesting to hear how refs ARE trained regularly, monitored, assesed by the RFL (and after each game by the clubs involved). Im sure someone on here must be able to tell us.


Four legs good - two legs bad

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Just now, JohnM said:

It would be interesting to hear how refs ARE trained regularly, monitored, assesed by the RFL (and after each game by the clubs involved). Im sure someone on here must be able to tell us.

I had Steve Ganson on my show last year - explaining precisely what you're asking.

If you change your avatar, I might tell you. 

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12 minutes ago, Michael Gledhill said:

I had Steve Ganson on my show last year - explaining precisely what you're asking.

If you change your avatar, I might tell you. 

Now that is the funniest post I've seen in a long time...thanks for the laugh!

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33 minutes ago, JohnM said:

It would be interesting to hear how refs ARE trained regularly, monitored, assesed by the RFL (and after each game by the clubs involved). Im sure someone on here must be able to tell us.

Referees are subjected to quite brutal performance monitoring that's just as harsh as any player but with the whole responsibility for the game.  I used to do it for union to RFU national league level and I know the RFL follow a very similar process.  It really is down to individual decision level throughout a game and everything from pre-match behaviour, patterns of offending, what's happening behind the ref and how a referee in their 30s/40s is keeping up with professional athletes fitness-wise.  A good assessor will have a chat with the club coaches after a game to get their views but always keeping in mind the tendency of coaches to be very one-eyed and result oriented.

Imagine going to work and being given a one hour sit-down assessment on your entire day, almost every day, including on how your co-workers worked with you.

The lower the level of referee, the more it is a coaching session, the higher the referee, the more it is a robust fault-finding mission for their coach/mentor to fix separately.  The higher potential a ref has at lower levels, the more senior assessors he'll see and more often while refs judged to be at their maximum level will often only see a good assessor once or twice a season as effectively a snapshot test that they're not that bad for the level.

Two bad assessments in a season from different senior assessors will effectively halt progression unless there's a damn good reason such as recovering from illness, any more than that is likely to see the ref returned to lower levels.  A couple of good assessments will see them tested at higher level games or assessed by an assessor from the grades above.

The problem you have with full-time employee match officials is that they have employment rights and can't easily be permanently demoted if they hit a long-term bad patch of form.  That's why there are so few of them, you REALLY have to be sure of them before you commit and the bunch of full-timers we have are easily the best in the game.

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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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Forums are great for people who love back seat driving.

Doing things in real life is difficult.

How do refs get to be in the pro-leagues in the first place?  From years of training, doing lots of amateur stuff and kids stuff for little reward.  And being bloody good at it.

Reffing rugby is hard.  I know this because I have done.  Ckn knows it because he has done it.  I am going to have a stab in the dark and assume the OP has not. 

They are accountable, the ones that get to the top have a rare combination of talents.  They are also, human, fallible and increasingly have to deal with players who have been coached to mislead them.

Players get dropped as there is someone better to take their place.  You could argue that refs are treated at least as harshly as players and coaches, I do not believe it would be true though.

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"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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3 hours ago, DavidM said:

You’ll never ever stop criticism of refs so no point even going there , it is what it is at the core of the game for right or wrong . And the sentiments pleading for change get nodded at sagely and people like them , but ultimately it’s hypocritical as most or everyone at times does it . Inside and outside clubs . Rugby League  is like all sport - where’s there’s officials there’s comment , criticism and controversy . That’s sport , it’ll never change and why would we want it there’d be no craic on forums ! Football , cricket whatever .One thing I’d argue with is that the current standard of officiating is very high , if you’re out n about or watching on telly it just ain’t . It’s thin gruel a lot of the time and that’s a worry 

Refs will always be analyzed and criticized and rated; justly and unjustly.  Its part of the job.

Its the level and veracity that I take exceptions to in Rugby League.   Hockey has this problem also and alot of improvements have been made.  It was getting to the point that young men/women didn't want to be trained as refs anymore and there was a shortage.  Rugby league should learn this lesson from hockey and avoid the same mistakes to make the game better for everyone; especially the kids that are watching and observing.

Its the level and tone of the criticism that is troubling....its clearly out of control and context and needs to be reigned in.

Edited by Kayakman

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7 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Now that is the funniest post I've seen in a long time...thanks for the laugh!

What Steve Ganson said was that he watches all the games back and judges the performance of the referee.

He will then clip the footage into 20/30 clips and make a video package which he'll show to the referee in question at the referee debrief. 

Steve Ganson was keen to point out that although mistakes do happen on average of two/three a round, no referee deliberately goes out on the field to make them. 

He also stressed that all the referees have regular health data monitoring as well. 

The interview is still on the Bradford Bulls soundcloud page.

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2 hours ago, super major said:

I think the main gripe is the inconsistency both in the same game and across the competition. I know how often I have had a moan at a ref at the game and then seen he has made a correct call when watching at home on the TV.

If we ignore it when the fans think their side is being hard done to we're left with inconsistency.

We're expecting to see a completely different person apply the interpretations of the laws of the game that we have never fully understood in exactly the same way no matter what the individual situation might be at the time, from one week to the next. And that's without any directive about the interpretations being delivered between one game and the next.

If you're reading that last sentence and you're saying "What's wrong with that?" you haven't understood the meaning of it at all.

There was a thread about a ref getting a standing ovation and in truth every ref should have a standing ovation just for turning up knowing the above and what happens when they do.


"It is, by a million miles, a better sport than union. League is 80 minutes of physicality, speed, good handling, good kicking. It’s continuous."

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8 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

Forums are great for people who love back seat driving.

Doing things in real life is difficult.

How do refs get to be in the pro-leagues in the first place?  From years of training, doing lots of amateur stuff and kids stuff for little reward.  And being bloody good at it.

Reffing rugby is hard.  I know this because I have done.  Ckn knows it because he has done it.  I am going to have a stab in the dark and assume the OP has not. 

They are accountable, the ones that get to the top have a rare combination of talents.  They are also, human, fallible and increasingly have to deal with players who have been coached to mislead them.

Players get dropped as there is someone better to take their place.  You could argue that refs are treated at least as harshly as players and coaches, I do not believe it would be true though.

I got invited to a semi-pro team's training day once and they spent about an hour going over the match referee's known strengths and weaknesses and how to exploit them.  The cleanest profession match of either code I've ever seen was when the match ref got changed at the very last minute and neither side had prepared for the replacement very senior ref who just happened to be free.

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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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the real problem is there are not enough younger people coming forward to be official's thus there's no great pressure on the ones at the top of the tree  .

perhaps if the sometimes quite frankly hysterical outpourings against the official's did not take such prominence on social and mainstream media it would not deter people from trying to climb that ladder and put pressure on the top guys .

I for one never call a ref a cheat or many of the other things people utter when things go against there team . I take it back there is one former ref I called a cheat but we are all allowed one slip.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ough people coming forward as officals 

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ah a sunday night in front of the telly watching old rugby league games.

does life get any better .

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18 minutes ago, ckn said:

Referees are subjected to quite brutal performance monitoring that's just as harsh as any player but with the whole responsibility for the game.  I used to do it for union to RFU national league level and I know the RFL follow a very similar process.  It really is down to individual decision level throughout a game and everything from pre-match behaviour, patterns of offending, what's happening behind the ref and how a referee in their 30s/40s is keeping up with professional athletes fitness-wise.  A good assessor will have a chat with the club coaches after a game to get their views but always keeping in mind the tendency of coaches to be very one-eyed and result oriented.

Imagine going to work and being given a one hour sit-down assessment on your entire day, almost every day, including on how your co-workers worked with you.

The lower the level of referee, the more it is a coaching session, the higher the referee, the more it is a robust fault-finding mission for their coach/mentor to fix separately.  The higher potential a ref has at lower levels, the more senior assessors he'll see and more often while refs judged to be at their maximum level will often only see a good assessor once or twice a season as effectively a snapshot test that they're not that bad for the level.

Two bad assessments in a season from different senior assessors will effectively halt progression unless there's a damn good reason such as recovering from illness, any more than that is likely to see the ref returned to lower levels.  A couple of good assessments will see them tested at higher level games or assessed by an assessor from the grades above.

The problem you have with full-time employee match officials is that they have employment rights and can't easily be permanently demoted if they hit a long-term bad patch of form.  That's why there are so few of them, you REALLY have to be sure of them before you commit and the bunch of full-timers we have are easily the best in the game.

You may be right about fitness monitoring but the RFL are miles and miles behind RU in terms of the other referee analysis.

I speak to one of the the RU referee assessors who is in charge of a team of eight full time analysts based at Twickenham whose sole job is to assess the referees. There are superior levels of investment that we could only dream of having.

So to say we are on a par with RU is wrong.

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2 minutes ago, Michael Gledhill said:

You may be right about fitness monitoring but the RFL are miles and miles behind RU in terms of the other referee analysis.

I speak to one of the the RU referee assessors who is in charge of a team of eight full time analysts based at Twickenham whose sole job is to assess the referees. There are superior levels of investment that we could only dream of having.

So to say we are on a par with RU is wrong.

You're right with that, the RFU employ a very big match officials team with everything from full-time coaches to sports psychologists.  It's not as bad as you think though, most of the problem in our sport is that there isn't the money to pay expenses to assessors to go around the country, pay for expensive radio equipment, review boards and so on to the level that the RFU have.  The subs the union clubs pay for their referees each year also include the costs of assessors and coaches for the refs, I'm not sure how it's done in rugby league.

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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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