Can Toronto become the new RL heartland?

[overtheborder]

4 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

Greater Toronto has a population of 6.4m, Sydney has about 5m as a comparison. Toronto could hold 6 clubs comfortably. We have a huge chance to establish our sport in all the major city's in Canada if TWP succeed - in 20 years it could be the epicentre of the sport

From what's being suggested here then it sounds as if Canada would then be able to have their own major league if this goes as planned (and possibly have an expanded World Club Challenge). I couldn't imagine 5/6 North American teams in the English system, just seems a bit saturated unless you're looking at one big Northern Hemisphere Super League (which sounds a bit close to the franchise system for my liking personally).

*edit* Just to say I'd be on board with an expanded WCC.

[RP London]

1 minute ago, overtheborder said:

From what's being suggested here then it sounds as if Canada would then be able to have their own major league if this goes as planned (and possibly have an expanded World Club Challenge). I couldn't imagine 5/6 North American teams in the English system, just seems a bit saturated unless you're looking at one big Northern Hemisphere Super League (which sounds a bit close to the franchise system for my liking personally).

*edit* Just to say I'd be on board with an expanded WCC.

i think you could easily do it as a northern hemisphere super league 2 conferences Europe and North America and have a play off (super bowl) for the champ to go to the WCC .. if you wanted to do it that way and you wouldnt need franchising in the European one if you didnt want to...

But 3 "Super Leagues" would be good too. 

[CanadianRugger]

Having our own League will absolutely not work.  Toronto Wolfpack work because the idea of a Trans-Atlantic sports league is commercially appealing to fans and corporate sponsors.  Toronto playing in some NA league has no appeal, the game isn't popular enough here for us to go it alone.  I anticipate the British System expanding in to something larger than what it is now.  Teams in France, NA and UK is the way forward.  

[wackojacko]

57 minutes ago, northamptoncougar said:

Oakville? Come on now, that’s the equivalent of setting up an RL side in Mayfair or somewhere else very posh that I don’t know of.

Despite its history, the rules and structure of the game aren't inherently working class. Pigeon-holing the game in Canada early on would be a big mistake. If we can get the rich and the influential onside then the project will be so much easier.

 

WRT the topic itself, heartland might be pushing it, let's see how it falls and hope that within twenty years Toronto has started producing a fair few players.

[Krzzystuff]

1 hour ago, Bullish Giant Rhino said:

So your success is predicated on less games being played? 

Fwiw I don’t think the season will be shortened for several years, and if TW are to be the catalyst then they need a multi million $ TV deal to show to the clubs 

the offer on the table is that we take $0 from the sky deal and any TV deals we get are all ours but the SL clubs get our slice of the SKY pie to share amongst themselves. Stupid deal for SL clubs if they take it but it seems like some owners are short sighted enough to take it.

[iffleyox]

40 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

Having our own League will absolutely not work.  Toronto Wolfpack work because the idea of a Trans-Atlantic sports league is commercially appealing to fans and corporate sponsors.  Toronto playing in some NA league has no appeal, the game isn't popular enough here for us to go it alone.  I anticipate the British System expanding in to something larger than what it is now.  Teams in France, NA and UK is the way forward.  

I appreciate the money side of things makes a difference, but that post reads exactly like the posts of supporters of Hemel, Oxford, GAG etc on here since 2012.... 

Frankly, and I speak as someone currently sitting in the sunshine in an Oxford RL polo shirt, we were made to feel unwelcome by some for having the temerity to be further south than Manchester. And our model of bussing lads down from Oldham to play for us doesn't sound a million miles from TW's one of flying them over from Leigh.

I've got sympathy for what you're proposing but IME it's not what the RL system over here wants.... There's an inexorable logic to a NA league, because (and I'd be willing to put £100 in cash to charity on this) you're unlikely to get "the British system expanding into something larger than it is now." IMO anyway.

Not wanted.

The RFL has proven to be pretty much institutionally incapable of/unwilling to properly support expansion in its own country. Even with the promise of money down the line, call me cynical but I don't see them bending over backwards to accommodate Canada.

As so many RL fans have said repeatedly to fans of southern clubs (inc London) over the years I'll say to TW fans - enjoy it while it lasts and don't make too many long term plans. I hope* TW are the exception that proves the rule, but the landscape of English RL is littered with the corpses of the non traditional, non core clubs who tried to join the party.

 

*both for your own sakes and because frankly it would be nice to know that it could be done...

[CanadianRugger]

1 minute ago, iffleyox said:

I appreciate the money side of things makes a difference, but that post reads exactly like the posts of supporters of Hemel, Oxford, GAG etc on here since 2012.... 

Frankly, and I speak as someone currently sitting in the sunshine in an Oxford RL polo shirt, we were made to feel unwelcome by some for having the temerity to be further south than Manchester. And our model of bussing lads down from Oldham to play for us doesn't sound a million miles from TW's one of flying them over from Leigh.

I've got sympathy for what you're proposing but IME it's not what the RL system over here wants.... There's an inexorable logic to a NA league, because (and I'd be willing to put £100 in cash to charity on this) you're unlikely to get "the British system expanding into something larger than it is now." IMO anyway.

Not wanted.

The RFL has proven to be pretty much institutionally incapable of/unwilling to properly support expansion in its own country. Even with the promise of money down the line, call me cynical but I don't see them bending over backwards to accommodate Canada.

As so many RL fans have said repeatedly to fans of southern clubs (inc London) over the years I'll say to TW fans - enjoy it while it lasts and don't make too many long term plans. I hope* TW are the exception that proves the rule, but the landscape of English RL is littered with the corpses of the non traditional, non core clubs who tried to join the party.

 

*both for your own sakes and because frankly it would be nice to know that it could be done...

You and I are in violent agreement.  Biggest risk to TWP isn't going under or not being popular enough in Toronto, it's the average M62 RL fan not wanting the team in the League.  

[RP London]

8 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

I appreciate the money side of things makes a difference, but that post reads exactly like the posts of supporters of Hemel, Oxford, GAG etc on here since 2012.... 

Frankly, and I speak as someone currently sitting in the sunshine in an Oxford RL polo shirt, we were made to feel unwelcome by some for having the temerity to be further south than Manchester. And our model of bussing lads down from Oldham to play for us doesn't sound a million miles from TW's one of flying them over from Leigh.

I've got sympathy for what you're proposing but IME it's not what the RL system over here wants.... There's an inexorable logic to a NA league, because (and I'd be willing to put £100 in cash to charity on this) you're unlikely to get "the British system expanding into something larger than it is now." IMO anyway.

Not wanted.

The RFL has proven to be pretty much institutionally incapable of/unwilling to properly support expansion in its own country. Even with the promise of money down the line, call me cynical but I don't see them bending over backwards to accommodate Canada.

As so many RL fans have said repeatedly to fans of southern clubs (inc London) over the years I'll say to TW fans - enjoy it while it lasts and don't make too many long term plans. I hope* TW are the exception that proves the rule, but the landscape of English RL is littered with the corpses of the non traditional, non core clubs who tried to join the party.

 

*both for your own sakes and because frankly it would be nice to know that it could be done...

I agree with much of what you are saying... i really do hope that this is different (though i share your pessimism) and that people see what new can be brought.. ie add 2 non Northern England teams to the league and open up some new revenue streams without diminishing what they already have. The problem with the "Southern" teams from reading on here was that not many could see where they "add value" rather than just taking a slice of a pie that isnt  that large, they did not/do not see how it can actually add to the pie 

(BTW there are a lot of people who do see this and I do understand the arguments against them adding to the pie I just dont agree with them).

[CanadianRugger]

16 minutes ago, RP London said:

I agree with much of what you are saying... i really do hope that this is different (though i share your pessimism) and that people see what new can be brought.. ie add 2 non Northern England teams to the league and open up some new revenue streams without diminishing what they already have. The problem with the "Southern" teams from reading on here was that not many could see where they "add value" rather than just taking a slice of a pie that isnt  that large, they did not/do not see how it can actually add to the pie 

(BTW there are a lot of people who do see this and I do understand the arguments against them adding to the pie I just dont agree with them).

I'm of the opinion that Toronto Wolfpack shouldn't be taking the Sky money; however, if they don't than they gain exclusive rights over the entire Canadian Market.  I think TWP can eventually become a Super Club that draws 15k-20k a game and pushes the best attendances of either Rugby Code in the Northern Hemisphere.

[RP London]

1 minute ago, CanadianRugger said:

I'm of the opinion that Toronto Wolfpack shouldn't be taking the Sky money; however, if they don't than they gain exclusive rights over the entire Canadian Market.  I think TWP can eventually become a Super Club that draws 15k-20k a game and pushes the best attendances of either Rugby Code in the Northern Hemisphere.

whichever way this goes is a risk. It is a risk to let them have sky money as they may not get any extra NA tv revenue (though i doubt that).. equally it is a risk to say that they get none but keep all NA money as they could get a lot. 

They just need to pick one and go with it. I am pretty easy either way but think Super League would regret not getting a slice of the NA tv money more than they would regret giving away a couple of years of Sky's money.

[TheReaper]

2 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

Yah they also have a nice little club house

 

Agreed, I've had many a post-match beer there. One of the best clubs for that, we're usually playing against the 3rds or 4ths so we get to watch the 1sts as part of the beer-up.

[Oxford]

6 hours ago, fieldofclothofgold said:

Jury hasn't even retired as far as I'm concerned on Toronto

Doesn't have the same ring to it though does it?

"The Twelve really Miserable Rugby League Fans" starring Henry Fonda and Lee J Cobb and directed by Sydney Lumet.

[Big Picture]

2 hours ago, RP London said:

I agree with much of what you are saying... i really do hope that this is different (though i share your pessimism) and that people see what new can be brought.. ie add 2 non Northern England teams to the league and open up some new revenue streams without diminishing what they already have. The problem with the "Southern" teams from reading on here was that not many could see where they "add value" rather than just taking a slice of a pie that isnt  that large, they did not/do not see how it can actually add to the pie 

(BTW there are a lot of people who do see this and I do understand the arguments against them adding to the pie I just dont agree with them).

You're overlooking the fact that 2 teams over here won't be enough to attract meaningful TV money; Eric Pérez said some time ago that 5 or 6 teams here would be needed for that.

Personally I don't see the RFL as competent to manage the inclusion of several teams over here given their track record of pulling the plug on expansion efforts in the past to prop up traditional clubs.  Having several teams over here up and running and becoming self-sustaining is likely to require a whole new league, but a transatlantic one rather that a North American one.

[Krzzystuff]

9 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

 Having several teams over here up and running and becoming self-sustaining is likely to require a whole new league, but a transatlantic one rather that a North American one.

NA is used to long road trips and taking flights to get to games, as are top EPL clubs who play in Europe. The world is a small place so having a transatlantic league isn't that hard to imagine. 

i don't think anyone will enter in 2019 but after  we have a good year in SL I expect more bids come. The new structure/tv deal will have to be set before anyone else enters.

[Big Picture]

5 minutes ago, Krzzystuff said:

NA is used to long road trips and taking flights to get to games, as are top EPL clubs who play in Europe. The world is a small place so having a transatlantic league isn't that hard to imagine. 

i don't think anyone will enter in 2019 but after  we have a good year in SL I expect more bids come. The new structure/tv deal will have to be set before anyone else enters.

As a Canadian I'm well aware of that.  I can easily imagine a whole new, franchised transatlantic Super League separate from the RFL structure which leaves all the traditional clubs where they are.  All it would take is a sound plan and investors to back the franchises, the rest would just be a matter of logistics, selling the idea to broadcasters and sponsors and then delivering on the plan.

[Sick39ed]

I hope something happens in Markham where the Wolfpack played Swinton. That stadium though would need a revamp.

[Mumby Magic]

I think mid term TWP won't actually be part of our league. I've a feeling after the 2025 World Cup that a Pro/Semi Pro League may not be too far off. Also With Perez as the CEO of the league.........

 

[Krzzystuff]

29 minutes ago, Mumby Magic said:

I think mid term TWP won't actually be part of our league. I've a feeling after the 2025 World Cup that a Pro/Semi Pro League may not be too far off. Also With Perez as the CEO of the league.........

 

I see us having a reserve grade team in the  NA comp for developing local talent and still playing in the SL. I don't think Perez would want to be CEO of the league but I don't know the man personally. Just seems to me he's the start up and marketing guy. From all the bickering in both the RFL and NRL someone from outside both those organizations would be ideal as they will likely bring baggage with them.

[sweaty craiq]

SL will expand to 2 divisions. TWP will be part of it and 3 other NA clubs within 4 years

[welshmagpie]

7 hours ago, northamptoncougar said:

Oakville? Come on now, that’s the equivalent of setting up an RL side in Mayfair or somewhere else very posh that I don’t know of.

I think they have a Union team there and may have tried a league side a few years ago but I’ve no idea where you’d find a squad of 30 guys in Oakville to play RL.

Oakville ran an RL club a few years back: Oakville Crusaders didn’t last long though

[TheReaper]

I actually played a game for that Oakville team  they were short and I was one of the sacrifices 

[CanaBull]

I was one of the managers for the Oakville Crusaders RL.  The first year we started off we had a RL supportive coach on the RU side (who had actually gone on the RL tour to Oz in 1997 and was subsequently banned by the Ontario RU), and we also had a supportive president who basically said if people want to play league they might as well play for us so we get a cut of the dues.

That first year went really well, lots of good kids coming through, good events going on, trying to get people into the club buying food and beer etc., most members were supportive and glad to see success in an Oakville shirt.

All that went pear shaped in the second year when the RU head coach changed and the club president didn’t seek re-election.

Oakville is a great club, and I do think it could support its own league program again given the right support from the board.  This is where pathways to the Canadian side as well as the Wolfpack need to be better publicized and marketed.    Oakville run three XV’s sides with people not making those, so any chance to represent should be seen as a good thing in the community, especially if we can give back to Oakville too.

[Southerner80]

19 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

Having our own League will absolutely not work.  Toronto Wolfpack work because the idea of a Trans-Atlantic sports league is commercially appealing to fans and corporate sponsors.  Toronto playing in some NA league has no appeal, the game isn't popular enough here for us to go it alone.  I anticipate the British System expanding in to something larger than what it is now.  Teams in France, NA and UK is the way forward.  

Bluntly put this is why Twp won't work long term - the popularity isn't there.

There's a reason in soccer there's not a European SL.... 

Twp being part of a Canada based competition.... Makes sense.

The transatlantic option is going to work short term and then you will see same issues that have happened in super rugby.... 

[RP London]

16 hours ago, Big Picture said:

You're overlooking the fact that 2 teams over here won't be enough to attract meaningful TV money; Eric Pérez said some time ago that 5 or 6 teams here would be needed for that.

Personally I don't see the RFL as competent to manage the inclusion of several teams over here given their track record of pulling the plug on expansion efforts in the past to prop up traditional clubs.  Having several teams over here up and running and becoming self-sustaining is likely to require a whole new league, but a transatlantic one rather that a North American one.

Not sure I am overlooking that as I did not mention TV money I said "Revenue streams" thats not just TV money it is just general money we dont have or have access to at the moment. By adding 2 new teams that arent in Northern England you open up the possibility of new money coming into the game, if it doesn't you are not losing the "heartland money" that is already there, because you are adding the teams. you are simply adding opportunity which is what you need, without opportunity no change can happen.

Toronto, for example, will most likely not be looking for money from Bachelors Mushy peas (unless they see Canada as an area for expansion of mushy pea business at which point they may spend more money with RL teams to do this) but from Canadian companies like Transat that are looking to expand to the UK (this is just an example.. i know it is much more complicated than that).

[Tommygilf]

On ‎09‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 10:24 AM, Southerner80 said:

Bluntly put this is why Twp won't work long term - the popularity isn't there.

There's a reason in soccer there's not a European SL.... 

Twp being part of a Canada based competition.... Makes sense.

The transatlantic option is going to work short term and then you will see same issues that have happened in super rugby.... 

I wouldn't be so pessimistic. Everything has to start somewhere. 

The European super league in football is an idea that comes around every few years by which point UEFA gives the top 5 leagues more Champions League places, if they contracted them further I'm less sure that the big teams wouldn't move.

What TWP and their predecessors in the long line of expansion projects in all sports not just RL is that in the professionalised sporting world, unless there is a ridiculously large sum of money behind it, entirely new 'leagues' do not work as a starting point. I'd prefer if 'natural rivals' were introduced alongside each other to get the best of both a home league and joining an established comp.