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13 hours ago, Pyjamarama said:

On trying to look at both sides of this debate, I'm no expert on what TWP did or didn't promise when they applied to join the league. However, if what Parksider says is correct (i.e. that within a set timescale Toronto promised to invest a share of the TV revenues they generate into the UK game, and to begin to develop homegrown players - but haven't delivered on these promises) then I do think this is a fair point to be raised, and needs discussing with TWP - presumably by the SL & RFL. 

Obviously, it's totally unreasonable to expect TWP to immediately start producing homegrown Champ/SL quality players - this will be years off. There is also an argument that some UK clubs fall way short in this area of the game. However, if developing homegrown players is TWPs long term aim & they promised to do this as part of their admission to the league, then it doesn't seem unreasonable to question why they haven't made a start at putting this in place. 

Parksider also mentions that TWP haven't engaged with the Canadian RL. Again, if this is correct, it does seem a bit bizarre. Whether they do or don't plan to develop homegrown players, surely the most obvious & logical first step for any new RL club in any country would be to engage with that country's governing body. 

For a brand new club, TWP are doing many things well such as marketing their club even planning to take a game to Belgrade 
 

Thank you for your interest, you are however way off the mark and most of your information and analysis is incorrect.

FACT 1. TWP never offered junior RL development, and the fact they have never spoken to Canada RL about it as Canada RL confirmed in League weekly, merely underlines that. TWP are working on a five year plan anyway so there is not time to do it within the plan. What clubs here do as regards player development is also irrelevant. Clubs here are not applying to join the RFL from 3,000 miles away.

TWP ACTUALLY promised a system of converting high school/college grid iron talented youth athletes into RL players, so they could contribute home grown players “pretty quickly”.  You can find this on You Tube "back chat special" where Dave Woods interviews Eric Perez in 2016.

FACT 2. TWP also offered a share of TV money from lucrative North American TV contracts. They told the RFL that North America would lap up RL on TV and Perez stipulated that to get such a TV contract it would “Need five to six north American clubs in Superleague”. You can look this up too. Nigel Wood however did not go to Ian Lenegan and discuss whether Superleague wanted to go Transatlantic or not. He did not ask Ian Lenegan whether five or six English clubs wanted to stand down for this alleged big TV deal. However In the absence of any player development and further clubs like Montreal (whom it appears perez made up as he said they would arrive this year for 2019)  it's fairly safe to conclude what they offered for entry to the RFL was false and was not delivered, and as such they give nothing to the game here.

Let’s also have it right that TWP were never asked nor have they offered to help clubs here market the game with their alleged brilliance at marketing. TWP were never asked to go to places like Belgrade and promote the game there either. These are your suggested personal criteria for their retention in the game here. Not the RFL's or Superleague's.

In January Lenegan confirmed through Rimmer TWP could be blocked if promoted. Later an offer from TWP to forgo their TV money so the other 11 clubs could share it if TWP were promoted was made by TWP that was tacitly accepted. The fact is TWP ended up delivering nothing to the game, but the game probably does not want the bad publicity that would come from kicking them out. Thanks again for your interest. Now note a typical piece of misinformation…….

12 hours ago, Oxford said:

They said they'd promote the game and try to produce the players.It's still early doors as Parky well knows on this and he also knows full well that this will take far longer than two or three years.

PYJAMARAMA this is the kind of rubbish you are swallowing, that is invented to excuse TWP from reneging on their plan to convert grid iron players to RL you can see evidenced in the video. It's just a cheap lie that they ever said they would produce Canadian junior players and take them forward to one day become professionals. As above Canada RL confirm they have not been approached by TWP with this plan. TWP never said that at all, but this clown pushes this false idea to then excuse them accordingly......

Equally their alleged crowds were never ever a criteria for accepting TWP for entry to the game here. The only comment was that those fans would not be coming here, which led to the idea clubs here "should not rely on away fans" but again this is spectacularly missing the point TWP have not delivered on the actual entry deal.....

Edited by The Parksider
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There are legitimate criticisms of Toronto (no sign of any youth programme, being closely affiliated with Ontario RU while giving Canada RL the cold shoulder, general non-support of RL community sides), but on the whole they're doing a lot of good for raising RL's profile, even here in the UK, I've seen just about as much TWP coverage in papers as I have seen RL in general (when I don't seek it out).

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1 minute ago, Chamey said:

There are legitimate criticisms of Toronto (no sign of any youth programme, being closely affiliated with Ontario RU while giving Canada RL the cold shoulder, general non-support of RL community sides), but on the whole they're doing a lot of good for raising RL's profile, even here in the UK, I've seen just about as much TWP coverage in papers as I have seen RL in general (when I don't seek it out).

As i have said on another thread, that if its true about a skolars connection i honestly think that will be a development tool for young Canadian players.

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12 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

As i have said on another thread, that if its true about a skolars connection i honestly think that will be a development tool for young Canadian players.

But there are no young Canadian players. The ORL has 3 teams of RU players who are interested in playing league. Few (if any) of them are young prospects.

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3 minutes ago, ojx said:

But there are no young Canadian players. The ORL has 3 teams of RU players who are interested in playing league. Few (if any) of them are young prospects.

We will see, otherwise why the Skolars connection. 

I stick by my posting for now.

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44 minutes ago, Chamey said:

There are legitimate criticisms of Toronto (no sign of any youth programme, being closely affiliated with Ontario RU while giving Canada RL the cold shoulder, general non-support of RL community sides), but on the whole they're doing a lot of good for raising RL's profile, even here in the UK, I've seen just about as much TWP coverage in papers as I have seen RL in general (when I don't seek it out).

TWP did state on their inauguration, that they were independent from Canada RL . The cold shoulder was put in place on conception.

Edited by SL17

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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't it next to impossible for young Canadian players to receive the required permits to be allowed to stay in England to play rugby?

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On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 11:11 AM, The Parksider said:

Omott you say “You just berate and attack them for supporting their team as you have done to Patrick”. Have you not seen the hundreds of attacks that have come my way like the one above? Have you not witnessed Bob8’s two year campaign to get everyone to “ignore the idiot”?

Did you not notice how Patrick extolled the virtues of TWP for the thousandth time on here, before then asking me to not reply. I’d actually prefer the mindless insults from the likes of DKW and Bob8 to Patrick’s attempt to shut down free speech. Perhaps your own bias fuels your bit of hypocrisy about how I supposedly put people down??. It's their arguments I put down.

On player development I have covered the issue of Salford and HKR abandoning their academies on the basis of not enough talent available when bigger clubs close by are mopping it all up, but to be fair they both still run development foundations which TWP do not. I would be agreeable to Bradford and Widnes taking their places in Superleague if possible. That would give us 11 English clubs all with development foundations and academies.

The Toronto shortcomings are not that they do not develop players or put TV money into the game here per se. It is that they promised these things to gain entry then disgracefully backpedalled. You rarely see this “debated” Omott because it’s wholly true and undeniable. It has been easier for people to just “berate and attack” me rather than admit/answer it!!

It has however been easy to engage with some well mannered  TWP supporters. At one time I amicably discussed with those TWP fans how TWP may have liked to stay in the Championship for a few years and continue to play their NA lads in the team, and actually look to trial and train up more, including grid iron players as well. The response was totally negative and the common desire was for TWP to do all it takes to get into SL as soon as possible

The debate then moved to Montreal, New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Jacksonville etc all following on the TWP charge to Superleague and when I suggested this was unfair on clubs here I was told TWP were the future and the northern RL clubs from small towns nobody had heard of were largely useless and should stand aside. So if you’re looking for rudeness, arrogance and downright self-interest don’t look in my direction, there’s plenty where you come from.

Where do I supposedly ''come from.''

I am a fan of Twp and expansion and wish that more clubs especially in the Uk had the drive to promote and market the game as they do. What they have done in two years in terms of spreading the game especially in the media, is phenomenal. The likes of which Super League has never seen. Even you have to acknowledge that the media spread with articles and reports in news outlets across the Uk and Canada can only be beneficial to our game and would not have occurred without Twp.

You can be stuck on all the negatives all you want but it's not a healthy outlook to have on the world. You would have a lot more credibility and less jokes/so called ''attacks'' if could acknowledge and take on other peoples viewpoints. Look at the positives,

  • Tens of thousands of people watching rl in Canada in a big global city.
  • They're taking a game to Belgrade, what a boost for their fledgling rl scene there.
  • Media outlets reporting on rl in non traditional markets.
  • A strong stable team that has the means to be able to challenge the big 3 teams in Super League hopefully in the coming years, instead of the usual Uk teams whose idea of a successful season is making the 8 or surviving relegation.
  • They have plenty of room to grow and within time has the potential to be the Super League's version of Melbourne Storm, something that a lot of current Super League teams will never have the potential to be due to simple geographical constraints and population. Modern sport is built on large big city teams that have the population and corporate sponsorship/money to support successful teams. It's the reason the Nrl, if they ever expand will go to places like Perth and not say Wagga Wagga or Tamworth. 

These points are undeniable and even you have to agree that the above points are positives that Twp bring to our game and that it is better for it. I can also see your points and agree that they haven't delivered on some areas. Maybe they are working on these issues and have forgotten to email us with their plans. Who can possibly develop players in this amount of time. The Storm have had 3 in 20 years, at least Twp have already had a Canadian play for them. Use that as a level of perspective. Either way the positives clearly outweigh the negatives and all the negatives can be turned into positives with given time. 

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3 hours ago, The Parksider said:

PYJAMARAMA this is the kind of rubbish you are swallowing, that is invented to excuse TWP from reneging on their plan to convert grid iron players to RL you can see evidenced in the video. It's just a cheap lie that they ever said they would produce Canadian junior players and take them forward to one day become professionals. As above Canada RL confirm they have not been approached by TWP with this plan. TWP never said that at all, but this clown pushes this false idea to then excuse them accordingly......

Equally their alleged crowds were never ever a criteria for accepting TWP for entry to the game here. The only comment was that those fans would not be coming here, which led to the idea clubs here "should not rely on away fans" but again this is spectacularly missing the point TWP have not delivered on the actual entry deal.....

Yes Pyjamarama don't listen to me, what do I know?

TWP  by Parksider ( A Poem In 567,461 Parts)

Part 567,461 Howls in the Night

The kind of rubbish,

Invented,

Reneging,

Cheap lie,

Not been approached by TWP,

This clown pushes this false idea,

Alleged crowds,

And not delivered on the actual entry deal.....

Bah, Humbug!

Lovely stuff from the Bard there. I think it may be one of his best. I confess I shed a tear over the raw emotion in this one. I know he has his detractors, those Philistines who don't appreciate the finer things in life and think poetry's for lonely teenagers and wusses but the poignant beauty of his work, the drama and use of language is breathtaking. 

For my part I don't see how he can improve on this but he has taken it to a new level so often in the past.

21 minutes ago, Omott91 said:

and even you have to agree

Er I think you may have misunderstood the collected works of Parky fundamentally on this point. I think you need to read part 356,239 of his TWP Opus the one titled Accentuate the Negative for clarification.

image.jpeg.fd97cd2e84c52155e967e0a46833771a.jpeg

 

 

Edited by Oxford
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The question is what is the end game for Toronto? Leaving aside the lack of youth development and the fact that there's no TV deal forthcoming, what is they bring other than a bit of novelty and some minor increase in mainstream media coverage? 

They're not doing anyone any harm, but it's a stretch to say they are good for the game. 

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4 hours ago, SL17 said:

TWP did state on their inauguration, that they were independent from Canada RL . The cold shoulder was put in place on conception.

I assume Canada RL is one man and their dog, so no idea why Toronto should have close ties with them or what expertise Canada RL brings to the table.

It would be like an NFL franchise setting up in London and people asking why they aren't taking advice from American Football UK.

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3 hours ago, SteelersWheeler said:

The question is what is the end game for Toronto? Leaving aside the lack of youth development and the fact that there's no TV deal forthcoming, what is they bring other than a bit of novelty and some minor increase in mainstream media coverage? 

They're not doing anyone any harm, but it's a stretch to say they are good for the game. 

Increased media coverage is more than most clubs provide. And to suggest that’s all TWP bring is just downright dishonest.

I can tell you what the “end game” is for English RL without new ventures like TWP... fast approaching. 

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4 hours ago, SteelersWheeler said:

The question is what is the end game for Toronto? Leaving aside the lack of youth development and the fact that there's no TV deal forthcoming, what is they bring other than a bit of novelty and some minor increase in mainstream media coverage? 

They're not doing anyone any harm, but it's a stretch to say they are good for the game. 

OK, so what do Wakefield or Salford bring to the table? Treading water season after season is hardly good for the game either. I'd say mainstream media coverage was like rocking horse doo da, so any generated is not to be sniffed at.

Not to pick on them, there's others as bad but if we're picking up on things like this, let's look closer to home.

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8 hours ago, ojx said:

But there are no young Canadian players. The ORL has 3 teams of RU players who are interested in playing league. Few (if any) of them are young prospects.

Well of course they don't. It will obviously take time.

To get even just Nagati even close to L1 level in the time they had is a massive achievement. 

Even if ORL had 30 RL teams the chances of any of them being good enough to play pro or semi-pro within 2 years is tiny. 

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5 hours ago, Leonard said:

I assume Canada RL is one man and their dog, so no idea why Toronto should have close ties with them or what expertise Canada RL brings to the table.

It would be like an NFL franchise setting up in London and people asking why they aren't taking advice from American Football UK.

Bingo

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7 hours ago, bird said:

Merry Christmas everybody.

Merry XMas right back at ya...snowing very heavy here right now.

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17 hours ago, The Parksider said:

FACT 1. TWP never offered junior RL development

Then they're not failing to live up to any "promises".

17 hours ago, The Parksider said:

TWP ACTUALLY promised a system of converting high school/college grid iron talented youth athletes into RL players, so they could contribute home grown players “pretty quickly”. 

Parksider, do you personally think that this was written into a formal agreement, as a guarantee to the RFL. (Yes or no question)

If yes, what time do you think " pretty quickly" would have been considered between the parties at the time of such an agreement?

17 hours ago, The Parksider said:

You can find this on You Tube "back chat special" where Dave Woods interviews Eric Perez in 2016.

Could be,  not gonna look, interviews are not binding contracts.

17 hours ago, The Parksider said:

FACT 2. TWP also offered a share of TV money from lucrative North American TV contracts. They told the RFL that North America would lap up RL on TV and Perez stipulated that to get such a TV contract it would “Need five to six north American clubs in Superleague”. 

The it would be the RFL who would need to pursue these other teams, as it would be them who would benefit from it, no? TWP have sacrificed UK TV money, and provided a template that other clubs could follow, and got some media attention on that process, that's quite a bit to getting the ball rolling in other clubs being set up. They didn't say they would personally start six clubs, they said we can start one, and IF    YOU (the rfl) can line up some more, you could get a big TV deal.

 

17 hours ago, The Parksider said:

However In the absence of any player development and further clubs like Montreal (whom it appears perez made up as he said they would arrive this year for 2019)  it's fairly safe to conclude what they offered for entry to the RFL was false and was not delivered, and as such they give nothing to the game here.

Instead of working to encourage these other clubs, RFL and SL have been ridiculously unclear if new clubs could even be promoted by going through the system.  Until they figure out what the heck they want I'm surprised that even NY has come forward. It would be smart to take the wait and see approach.

17 hours ago, The Parksider said:

In January Lenegan confirmed through Rimmer TWP could be blocked if promoted. Later an offer from TWP to forgo their TV money so the other 11 clubs could share it if TWP were promoted was made by TWP that was tacitly accepted.

Exactly.  Not exactly welcoming to anyone else is it?

17 hours ago, The Parksider said:

 It's just a cheap lie that they ever said they would produce Canadian junior players and take them forward to one day become professionals. 

Then why is it one of your favourite sticks to beat them with? If they've never claimed to do any junior work (and they are, just with the actual junior rugby players in the country, not the three half-assed senior men's clubs that is ORL).

17 hours ago, The Parksider said:

As above Canada RL confirm they have not been approached by TWP with this plan. TWP never said that at all, but this clown pushes this false idea to then excuse them accordingly......

Why would Canada RL have anything to do with gridiron players? If anything they should talk to OUA or Usports.

17 hours ago, The Parksider said:

 

 Parky, I think you take things literally that were not intended to be. All of your "promises" and "requirements" that you use to argue day in and day out, unless you prove to be written in an agreement between the RFL/SL/TWP, are conjecture based on media interviews and press releases from all sides.  How much do you take those sources with a grain of salt about any other topic? Yet when it comes to this it seems every word out of everyones mouth is the Gospel truth.

For all you know, they have 5 years (you do rag on the 5 year plan a lot) to have developed a plan for any of these things.

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19 hours ago, The Parksider said:

TWP ACTUALLY promised a system of converting high school/college grid iron talented youth athletes into RL players, so they could contribute home grown players “pretty quickly”.  You can find this on You Tube "back chat special" where Dave Woods interviews Eric Perez in 2016.

 

 

The problem is that the Cybermen have not yet delivered their conversion machines as promised. Apparently the Doctor got word and stepped in to stop them.

In the meantime, TWP are going at it in the traditional way - exposing people to the game, getting kids interested, and they helping them find places to play.

So unless the Cybermen come through, it will probably take, oh, say, 20 years?

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I also like how harshly judged Toronto are for not developing the grassroots despite the fact that heartlanders have struggled to spread the game to such far slung areas as Scunthorpe, Rotherham, Macclesfield, and Harrogate in over 100 years. It's beyond parody.

 

 

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On 11/23/2018 at 2:23 PM, ChoboMog said:

 

To be fair, with jerseys at 50% off and other stuff marked down, there are a few good deals to be had, today ?https://torontowolfpackshop.com/

Dss89kmUcAA6Y7j.jpg large.jpg

If Quinn Ngawati was still with the Wolfpack I might have checked those out, but with zero Canadian players I'll pass.

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38 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

If Quinn Ngawati was still with the Wolfpack I might have checked those out, but with zero Canadian players I'll pass.

That doesn't make a big difference as Quinn never played anyhow. If you want Canadian players, watch the Arrows.

It will be interesting to see how both rugby teams go next season.  Having Canadian players is a draw, but not if the quality is too bad. For example, TFC games are far more popular than the Canadian national team games.

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