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41 minutes ago, Griff9of13 said:

10 - 15 years ago they'd be nothing but a footnote of the political pages of the broadsheets within days of them coming into existence. Today, I'm not so sure. When "non of the above" polls ahead of the leader of the opposition and just behind the PM on a regular basis then I think there is an appetite for something fresh in British politics. Whether TIG is the answer I'm not so sure. As I've already said, I will judge them if and when they announce their policies. Ambivalence is my current state.

I'm not really sure how they position themselves any differently to the Lib Dems. 


"At times to be silent is to lie. You will win because you have enough brute force. But you will not convince. For to convince you need to persuade. And in order to persuade you would need what you lack: Reason and Right."

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6 minutes ago, slowdive said:

I'm not really sure how they position themselves any differently to the Lib Dems. 

I think the words "not tainted by Nick Clegg and the coalition" are what you're looking for.

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1 minute ago, RidingPie said:

I think the words "not tainted by Nick Clegg and the coalition" are what you're looking for.

Some one was making the point on LBC this week, but I was just getting in the car, so not sure if it was an expert expert, or the radio equivalent of one us forum bores masquerading as an expert!

Either way, it seemed like a good way to swell the Lib Dem ranks, detoxify from the hangover lingering from there time in coalition and re-brand, whilst bringing a membership infrastructure to the new group. 

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8 minutes ago, shrek said:

Some one was making the point on LBC this week, but I was just getting in the car, so not sure if it was an expert expert, or the radio equivalent of one us forum bores masquerading as an expert!

Either way, it seemed like a good way to swell the Lib Dem ranks, detoxify from the hangover lingering from there time in coalition and re-brand, whilst bringing a membership infrastructure to the new group. 

and I'll add, overthrowing the current leadership who are.... creaking

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2 minutes ago, RidingPie said:

and I'll add, overthrowing the current leadership who are.... creaking

Agreed, I appreciate I'm probably in a minority, but I've never warmed to Cable, he seemed overly smug pre-coalition, snide when in coalition and ineffective as leader.

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2 minutes ago, shrek said:

Agreed, I appreciate I'm probably in a minority, but I've never warmed to Cable, he seemed overly smug pre-coalition, snide when in coalition and ineffective as leader.

Initially I thought he might be a steady hand until someone more dynamic turned up, but as time has gone on I've been unenthused by him.

Don't get me wrong I'm sure he's a nice guy but really unengaging.

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43 minutes ago, shrek said:

Agreed, I appreciate I'm probably in a minority, but I've never warmed to Cable, he seemed overly smug pre-coalition, snide when in coalition and ineffective as leader.

I agree, as a card carrying Lib Dem member myself I think he's a liabiity to the party.

Edited by Shadow

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1 hour ago, shrek said:

Agreed, I appreciate I'm probably in a minority, but I've never warmed to Cable, he seemed overly smug pre-coalition, snide when in coalition and ineffective as leader.

I think his problem is that he was essentially spot on about the financial crisis and was on record about that well before the disaster came. But then having been right, he's really struggled to articulate anything like a coherent sent of policies in the 11 years since. 

He is most definitely not a leader.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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4 hours ago, Private Baldrick said:

Is that an opinion or a fact??

I know it's meant as a joke but I'll deconstruct my sentence for you.

 

4 hours ago, Shadow said:

I agree

It's a statement of my opinion, however as such it is a fact that my opinion is I agree with Shrek's views on Vince Cable

 

4 hours ago, Shadow said:

as a card carrying Lib Dem member

This is easier. I am a member of the  Liberal Democrats and have a membership card. For the sake of absolute accuracy I am typing this one handed while holding my membership card in the other so I am truly carrying my card.

 

4 hours ago, Shadow said:

I think he's a liabiity to the party

This is opinion, however it is opinion based on the following factors:

1  Vince shows a lack of "leadership", failing to inspire the members or non members and failing to even turn up to vote for key events.

2  The often mentioned association with the Coalition and his perceived role in enabling the Tories and ultimately leading to the Referendum.

3  The abject performance of the party in opinion polls and elections since 2017 despite the obvious desire among the population for an alternate left leaning party to the Labour party.

4  The execrable choices of campaigns, I have been on the mean streets of Salisbury as part of the "Exit from Brexit" campaign and because it is such a confusing message we have frequenty been approached by UKIPers congratulating us on the stance, the sooner (they say) we get out, the better.

Edited by Shadow
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6 minutes ago, Shadow said:

I know it's meant as a joke but I'll deconstruct my sentence for you.

 

It's a staement of my opiion, however as such it is a fact that my opinion is I agree with Shrek's views on Vince Cable

 

This is easier. I am a member of the  Liberal Democrats and have a membership card. For the sake of absolute accuracy I am typing this one handed while holding my membership card in the other so I am truly carrying my card.

 

This is opinion, however it is opinion based on the following factors:

1  Vince shows a lack of "leadership", failing to inspire the members or non members and failing to even turn up to vote for key events.

2  The often mentioned association with the Coalition and his perceived role in enabling the Tories and ultimately leading to the Referendum.

3  The abject performance of the party in opinion polls and elections since 2017 despite the obvious desire among the population for an alternate left leaning party to the Labour party.

4  The execrable choices of campaigns, I have been on the mean streets of Salisbury as part of the "Exit from Brexit" campaign and because it is such a confusing message we have frequenty been approached by UKIPers congratulating us on the stance, the sooner (they say) we get out, the better.

I concur with your post. So your opinion and my opinion on an issue, for probably the first time, seem to be pretty much similar! Who would have thought it!

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7 minutes ago, Shadow said:

4  The execrable choices of campaigns, I have been on the mean streets of Salisbury as part of the "Exit from Brexit" campaign and because it is such a confusing message we have frequenty been approached by UKIPers congratulating us on the stance, the sooner (they say) we get out, the better.

Yes, I've just seen in about two tweets from TIGgers a clearer, more honest, message about Brexit.

Given that we've *always* been a pro European party that's quite an impressive achievement.

(Mind you, Vince has always struck me as surprisingly Eurosceptic.)


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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10 minutes ago, Shadow said:

I know it's meant as a joke but I'll deconstruct my sentence for you.

 

It's a staement of my opiion, however as such it is a fact that my opinion is I agree with Shrek's views on Vince Cable

 

This is easier. I am a member of the  Liberal Democrats and have a membership card. For the sake of absolute accuracy I am typing this one handed while holding my membership card in the other so I am truly carrying my card.

 

This is opinion, however it is opinion based on the following factors:

1  Vince shows a lack of "leadership", failing to inspire the members or non members and failing to even turn up to vote for key events.

2  The often mentioned association with the Coalition and his perceived role in enabling the Tories and ultimately leading to the Referendum.

3  The abject performance of the party in opinion polls and elections since 2017 despite the obvious desire among the population for an alternate left leaning party to the Labour party.

4  The execrable choices of campaigns, I have been on the mean streets of Salisbury as part of the "Exit from Brexit" campaign and because it is such a confusing message we have frequenty been approached by UKIPers congratulating us on the stance, the sooner (they say) we get out, the better.

I remember back to 2003 when I left Labour after the Iraq war that I was looking for a political home.  The Lib Dems stood for something and it was a very clear message put across by the effortless enthusiasm of the party at the time; I have no clue what the party stands for now.

I think the Lib Dems' greatest betrayal is of the huge support they have at council and regional levels where a lot of excellent Lib Dem candidates lost their jobs as Councillors purely due to association with the political party.

Whatever Cable & Co have planned around this independent group, they should be putting the local party members first for a change and think through the impacts on them before doing anything.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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6 minutes ago, ckn said:

Whatever Cable & Co have planned around this independent group, they should be putting the local party members first for a change and think through the impacts on them before doing anything.

Vince's statement on the formation of TIG

It is not unexpected, or unwelcome, that a group of Labour MPs have decided to break away from Corbyn’s Labour; in part motivated by his refusal to follow the party’s policy on Brexit.
 
 
 
“The Liberal Democrats are open to working with like-minded groups and individuals in order to give the people the final say on Brexit, with the option to remain in the EU. We will be engaging in talks to progress both that campaign and a wider political agenda

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4 minutes ago, Shadow said:

Vince's statement on the formation of TIG

It is not unexpected, or unwelcome, that a group of Labour MPs have decided to break away from Corbyn’s Labour; in part motivated by his refusal to follow the party’s policy on Brexit.
 
 
“The Liberal Democrats are open to working with like-minded groups and individuals in order to give the people the final say on Brexit, with the option to remain in the EU. We will be engaging in talks to progress both that campaign and a wider political agenda

I write committee papers with more life.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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54 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I write committee papers with more life.

I'm enthused, how about you?

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1 hour ago, Shadow said:

I'm enthused, how about you?

Being enthused is not something to over worry about when you're in the middle of the road. That's its job not being overly excited, exciting or excitable!

Edited by Oxford
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“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”    

 

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6 hours ago, gingerjon said:

To follow through with your Brexit point - what's been needed is honesty. Instead, we get gung-ho war games, poker references and, even now, evidence-free (in fact, often reality-denying) statements from people who are either in positions of power or have been so. Britain outside the EU in 2019 is not the same as Britain outside the EU at randomly chosen points in its history. The world is not waiting for us to lead, there is no Anglosphere and we need to understand that to get what we want we have to agree to things we probably don't want. None of that has happened. Instead, Brexit means Brexit ... and the lies continue.

I could grudgingly support a position I don’t necessarily agree with if it was honest and consistent but this vague, wishy-washy nonsense is simply embarrassing to watch from outside.  No rose tinted nostalgia of past glories will make up for this current monumental mismanagement.

These few jumping ship at the point they have, to me suggests they don’t have a grasp of what’s best for the country at the moment.

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1 hour ago, Oxford said:

Being enthused is not something to over worry about when you're in the middle of the road. That's its job not being overly excited, exciting or excitable!

You see I'd argue that that is small c conservatism. Navigating the tried and true steady approach.

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Think about the Leave campaign - massive gobsh**e Farage gets on TV every day saying something, no matter how stupid. Rouses the base - gets attacked - base strengthens.

Lib Dems - tumbleweed blows past carrying Vince's latest dull pronouncements with it.


"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

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13 minutes ago, tim2 said:

Think about the Leave campaign - massive gobsh**e Farage gets on TV every day saying something, no matter how stupid. Rouses the base - gets attacked - base strengthens.

Lib Dems - tumbleweed blows past carrying Vince's latest dull pronouncements with it.

The TIGgers have put out a decent soundbite response to the latest developments already.

The old Lib Dem press office team would have tweeted something viral but they're gone.

Meanwhile, Vince ponders, "do I mean "wearily predictable" or "sadly predictable""?

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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5 hours ago, gingerjon said:

I think his problem is that he was essentially spot on about the financial crisis and was on record about that well before the disaster came. But then having been right, he's really struggled to articulate anything like a coherent sent of policies in the 11 years since. 

He is most definitely not a leader.

He appears to be somewhat lacking in energy and enthusiasm, perhaps reflecting the impact of his age. The LDs could do with a new leader, although there are not a lot of alternatives in the House of Commons........

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9 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Were they stupid when 40% of them voted for Corbyn? 

Corbyn is the leader of an established political party with policies, candidates, unifying ideology and and an official stance on every issue. So no. Also aren't you the one who was adamant that people vote for their local candidates rather than parties (or even just the party leader as you seem to be implying)?

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2 hours ago, RidingPie said:

You see I'd argue that that is small c conservatism. Navigating the tried and true steady approach.

Yeah being boring, doing bu gger all of note and avoid rocking the boat at all costs, while the filthy rich get very much dirtier. I think you summed that up very nicely, well done!

 

Edited by Oxford
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“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”    

 

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4 hours ago, Evil Homer said:

Corbyn is the leader of an established political party with policies, candidates, unifying ideology and and an official stance on every issue. So no. Also aren't you the one who was adamant that people vote for their local candidates rather than parties (or even just the party leader as you seem to be implying)?

No I was talking about a technicality and saying that I have no problem with the IG using a technicality to get an advantage in a system that massively hinders them. 

There are all sorts of reasons why people vote the way they do and policies are only one reason, one that I would suggest is far smaller than others. For an awful lot of people I suspect that voting comes down to who they trust more and would prefer to be in charge. This inevitably aligns with political ideology but not necessarily any more specific than left/right.

People also vote for shallower reasons such as image and because they treat it like football support. 

The IG has outlined that it will take the centre ground and if you're that way inclined I see nothing wrong with suggesting that you would vote for a new party occupying that ground in preference of a far left or a far right party. Personalities matter also, Umunna was once a frontrunner to be Labour leader and is a well known figure. 

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