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What I find very interesting about this whole thing is that the Tory backbench MPs have been almost unanimously clear that they'd like to see a time when the rebels rejoin, they obviously see it as a temporary measure.  Unlike the front bench, even then Michael Gove has made it clear the olive branch is there for the asking.

On the other side, Labour have gone full bat-excrement ex-partner bunny-boiling mad about the situation.

Who'd have ever thought the kinder politics would be on the Tory side...

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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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2 minutes ago, ckn said:

What I find very interesting about this whole thing is that the Tory backbench MPs have been almost unanimously clear that they'd like to see a time when the rebels rejoin, they obviously see it as a temporary measure.  Unlike the front bench, even then Michael Gove has made it clear the olive branch is there for the asking.

On the other side, Labour have gone full bat-excrement ex-partner bunny-boiling mad about the situation.

Who'd have ever thought the kinder politics would be on the Tory side...

They probably see it as a differentiation on brexit alone which ultimately can be got past ... whereas with labour it’s a lot more multi layered . There’s no way back for the labour rebels . It’s been way to visceral 

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And Corbynism seems to have a tight hold on the direction of travel , whereas you feel May is always on limited time 

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1 hour ago, DavidM said:

And Corbynism seems to have a tight hold on the direction of travel , whereas you feel May is always on limited time 

The ERG are able to take a hold of the Tory party when it comes to Brexit but little else. Corbynism is a much more fundamental change to the Labour Party that might change it (or return it) permanently.

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1 hour ago, ckn said:

What I find very interesting about this whole thing is that the Tory backbench MPs have been almost unanimously clear that they'd like to see a time when the rebels rejoin, they obviously see it as a temporary measure.  Unlike the front bench, even then Michael Gove has made it clear the olive branch is there for the asking.

On the other side, Labour have gone full bat-excrement ex-partner bunny-boiling mad about the situation.

Who'd have ever thought the kinder politics would be on the Tory side...

It was interesting seeing the reactions to Emily Thornberry's ' rant ' By Mrs Allen on the Andrew marr Show " I can see why you left " , and then hearing Tom Watson explaining essentially how he is having to work very hard to keep the rest of the labour party together

Yes the tories have some right ' loons ' on the back seat and god forbid one of them wins control next time , but over at labour , its the loony driving the bus

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2 hours ago, ckn said:

What I find very interesting about this whole thing is that the Tory backbench MPs have been almost unanimously clear that they'd like to see a time when the rebels rejoin, they obviously see it as a temporary measure.  Unlike the front bench, even then Michael Gove has made it clear the olive branch is there for the asking.

On the other side, Labour have gone full bat-excrement ex-partner bunny-boiling mad about the situation.

Who'd have ever thought the kinder politics would be on the Tory side...

I think "politically sensible" as much as "kinder". The Conservatives want to keep those people onside and want to prevent any further MPs leaving.

Abuse from Labour obviously goes down well with the Corbynite core of party members, but isn't a great look to the electorate at large. I think it's quite notable that not only was Tom Watson fairly conciliatory (and put the blame on the party and not the people who had left), but John McDonnell has taken a fairly similar line. It's been mostly the people like Chris Williamson (who should have been expelled from the Labour party long ago) who've been on the attack.

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30 minutes ago, JonM said:

 It's been mostly the people like Chris Williamson

One of the worst people ever to sit in Parliament.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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The Conservative approach (in recent years, at least) has always been pragmatic, which is a viewpoint that can easily move across the borderline to being purely cynical (see the ERG profiteers or Boris Johnson's dramatic, complete and entirely opportunistic u-turn on EU membership, for example).

Corbyn's hard-liners are more like a religious splinter group, where you have to embrace every tiny detail of faith with them, or be utterly shunned and persecuted, despite holding many other common beliefs. A lot of old members of Militant must be rubbing their hands in glee right now, as they look forward to another era of self-righteous unelectability, where they can blame everyone but themselves.

Both seem entirely irredeemable and disgraceful to me. But who else is there to vote for that has a ghost of a chance of influencing policy at a national level? A new broom of moderation and intelligence seems a very distant prospect.

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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. (Susan Ertz)

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On 2/22/2019 at 1:09 PM, ckn said:

I wouldn't object much to Heidi Allen chasing me around for a game of tig... :ninja:

So a thread about The Independent Group descends into comments about the attractiveness of one of it's members.  Not exactly a highlight for this forum.  

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"At times to be silent is to lie. You will win because you have enough brute force. But you will not convince. For to convince you need to persuade. And in order to persuade you would need what you lack: Reason and Right."

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43 minutes ago, slowdive said:

So a thread about The Independent Group descends into comments about the attractiveness of one of it's members.  Not exactly a highlight for this forum.  

+1 internet virtue signalling medal for you.

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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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46 minutes ago, slowdive said:

So a thread about The Independent Group descends into comments about the attractiveness of one of it's members.  Not exactly a highlight for this forum.  

No but it was humour . Good old humour , it used to be quite a thing once 

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Just now, Mister Ting said:

Not very pc was it though. Shame on you.?

No it wasn’t , I’m well chuffed 

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I can’t see this as anything but an outlier and new party interest but it’s still very interesting 

 


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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2 hours ago, ckn said:

I can’t see this as anything but an outlier and new party interest but it’s still very interesting 

 

Not really. The fact that people would supposedly vote for a non-party that has no leader, no policies, no candidates, no unifying ideology and no official stance on any issue is just proof if it was further needed that a) polls are stupid and b) people are stupid too.

Edited by Evil Homer
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Looking on from over here with the coverage we get these folks splitting off don’t look courageous, paragons of integrity or providers of viable options for the everyman(person), merely those diving off the bus before it gets to the cliff edge, even though they chipped in to buy the bus in the first place, all had a turn driving and are now running away from responsibility of the ensuing wreck.

Whatever their motivations the timing has done nothing to improve the rapidly diminishing global standing the UK has and the impression that it’s an increasingly erratic, rudderless ship.  Hardly the foundation for building solid trade structures going forward and really doesn’t appear to be something in the thinking of the powers that be.

2 years ago, if all the leadership got behind and really drove it, I think there would have been a difficult yet outside shot of pulling Brexit off cleanly but now, with the latest fracturing reducing Britain’s credibility even further on the world stage, and I really hate to say this, Britain is going to get eaten alive by people who are a great deal better at doing what Britain needs to do.

I never thought going into trade meetings chanting ‘Two World Wars and one World Cup, doo dah, doo dah!’  would be a brush of comparative tactical brilliance and dearly wish I could think of a solution for the situation Britain faces, but must confess I’m stumped for anything practical that won’t be stymied by the current power/rule model and won’t take generational timeframes to complete.

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TBH I could possibly see Sourby or Allen as leader eventually with Umuuna as shadow chancellor (if thats even a role when they're not the main opposition... guess it might be financial spokesman or something). It would certainly be a more dynamic front bench.

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1 hour ago, CanaBull said:

Looking on from over here with the coverage we get these folks splitting off don’t look courageous, paragons of integrity or providers of viable options for the everyman(person), merely those diving off the bus before it gets to the cliff edge, even though they chipped in to buy the bus in the first place, all had a turn driving and are now running away from responsibility of the ensuing wreck.

Whatever their motivations the timing has done nothing to improve the rapidly diminishing global standing the UK has and the impression that it’s an increasingly erratic, rudderless ship.  Hardly the foundation for building solid trade structures going forward and really doesn’t appear to be something in the thinking of the powers that be.

2 years ago, if all the leadership got behind and really drove it, I think there would have been a difficult yet outside shot of pulling Brexit off cleanly but now, with the latest fracturing reducing Britain’s credibility even further on the world stage, and I really hate to say this, Britain is going to get eaten alive by people who are a great deal better at doing what Britain needs to do.

I never thought going into trade meetings chanting ‘Two World Wars and one World Cup, doo dah, doo dah!’  would be a brush of comparative tactical brilliance and dearly wish I could think of a solution for the situation Britain faces, but must confess I’m stumped for anything practical that won’t be stymied by the current power/rule model and won’t take generational timeframes to complete.

To follow through with your Brexit point - what's been needed is honesty. Instead, we get gung-ho war games, poker references and, even now, evidence-free (in fact, often reality-denying) statements from people who are either in positions of power or have been so. Britain outside the EU in 2019 is not the same as Britain outside the EU at randomly chosen points in its history. The world is not waiting for us to lead, there is no Anglosphere and we need to understand that to get what we want we have to agree to things we probably don't want. None of that has happened. Instead, Brexit means Brexit ... and the lies continue.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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5 hours ago, Evil Homer said:

Not really. The fact that people would supposedly vote for a non-party that has no leader, no policies, no candidates, no unifying ideology and no official stance on any issue is just proof if it was further needed that a) polls are stupid and b) people are stupid too.

Were they stupid when 40% of them voted for Corbyn? 

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5 hours ago, Evil Homer said:

Not really. The fact that people would supposedly vote for a non-party that has no leader, no policies, no candidates, no unifying ideology and no official stance on any issue is just proof if it was further needed that a) polls are stupid and b) people are stupid too.

10 - 15 years ago they'd be nothing but a footnote of the political pages of the broadsheets within days of them coming into existence. Today, I'm not so sure. When "non of the above" polls ahead of the leader of the opposition and just behind the PM on a regular basis then I think there is an appetite for something fresh in British politics. Whether TIG is the answer I'm not so sure. As I've already said, I will judge them if and when they announce their policies. Ambivalence is my current state.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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On 22 February 2019 at 3:11 PM, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I don't know, I can see what's attracting you but there's something about her that might get on my nerves after a while. Nothing to do with her politics, she's a bit too " jolly hockeysticks " for me.

You've now given me the mental picture of Heidi Allen with a hockey stick in her hand dressed in the requisite matching attire :swoon:

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