Jump to content
Total Rugby League Fans Forum
Sign in to follow this  
kev p

CC final attendance

Recommended Posts

I could effing weep. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bring back GB said:

Why does the fact that the RFL's promotional work is poor surprise anybody ????!!!!!

Because as soon as Saints and Wire reached the final Rimmer put his feet on his desk and lit a big fat cigar. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Dave T said:

Considering the challenges that the Cup faces, many of which we have gone through before (poor date, poor marketing, 2nd best to Grand Final, the sport's internal battles etc) - the fact that we still command 65-70k is decent. But we shouldn't be settling for decent, we need to be looking at how we move that on to 75-80k which is back to the 90's levels and means that Wembley is the only stadium that is suitable for this game. Being able to fit the crowd into other grounds will continue to raise questions about where this game should be played. 

One thing that surprises me is how quiet it has gone from a promotional point of view. I am seeing no push - who is the entertainment this year, if there is any?It has gone quiet in the last 2 weeks, maybe this was the time to tap into the neutrals with a big headline act to nudge those who are considering going. 

I would be offering tickets to every youth organisation, school etc. in London and surrounding areas in an attempt to fill the empty 20k seats that are not even open, but playing during the summer holidays is obviously a problem for this. Maybe next year will open up new opportunities.

With regards entertainment what has it been the last few years. Off the top of my head I cannot remember anything. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, saintspete83 said:

With regards entertainment what has it been the last few years. Off the top of my head I cannot remember anything. 

It’s all dance troupes and school choirs, isn’t it? That’s the ‘entertainment’.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, saintspete83 said:

With regards entertainment what has it been the last few years. Off the top of my head I cannot remember anything. 

Very little. The odd classical singer as part of the singing.

It's odd that we seem to under sell the event of this. It is enjoyable enough, but no more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, SilentAssassin said:

yes the capacity went down to around 80k in the late 80's i believe. 

I see your point regards Wigan but you have to also factor in they were winning on all those occasions; usually in style with some of the best rugby players of all time on show at a time when the CC was THE big one as opposed to being second fiddle to the grand final these days.

The 87/88 and 88/89 crowds give you a slight hint...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be nice and appropriate if Totalrl would ask what promotion the RFL do for the Challenge Cup Final. However,the answer is that we send e-mails and texts to people already on our mailing lists.

I dont know what a professional marketing campaign would cost,nor the likely benefits but at least Rimmer could say that we tried.As it stands they appear to do absolutely nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, cookey said:

It would be nice and appropriate if Totalrl would ask what promotion the RFL do for the Challenge Cup Final. However,the answer is that we send e-mails and texts to people already on our mailing lists.

I dont know what a professional marketing campaign would cost,nor the likely benefits but at least Rimmer could say that we tried.As it stands they appear to do absolutely nothing.

dont know if its the likes of totalrl not asking the questions or the rfl not giving answers but i do think it would be useful for the RFL to actually come out sometimes and give us an idea of what they are actually doing. We constantly say they could do more but maybe they are and by telling us they would potentially get a lot more respect. If they were to just look at this board and the opinions of many fans about the RFL this could change just by being more open and we would all think "they are actually doing stuff its just not working/we are not that big" etc rather than at the moment we just think "they do nothing so what do you expect"... 

Of course the silence may just be because they are doing nothing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Lobbygobbler said:

Emails and texts are a waste of time.

A big tube/bus billboard campaign and tv ads in London are the answer

A 2013 article says it costs, on average, £64,000 per site on the London Underground. For two weeks.

How much are you willing to spend?


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

A 2013 article says it costs, on average, £64,000 per site on the London Underground. For two weeks.

How much are you willing to spend?

the worst bit is they are not "the answer" but only "part of the answer" so how much more?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Moove said:

I think someone mentioned GDPR rules earlier which might affect the RFL's ability to market people, something I hadn't thought of when complaining about the lack of emails they'd sent me about tickets. Although looking back I can't see that they used GDPR to email out to update marketing preferences like most companies did. They've perhaps instead relied on registration of the OurLeague app for that. Interestingly through the app I can opt for the RFL to share my details with my chosen club, however I can't do vice-versa when updating my details with Saints.

GDPR doesn't in itself prevent companies from doing email marketing. What it does do is demand that companies know and evidence where they got that data from for that email marketing and that they have permission to use it for those purposes.

The reason why so many companies were sending out "do you want to stay on our mailing list?" emails before it came into force is because they didn't have the paper trail to prove that they could satisfy that criteria - either because they'd bought lists, mis-led people into opting-in (confusing tick boxes for example) or because they didn't sufficiently log permissions. 

The RFL should know where it gets its data from. I can't believe that it has bought-in lists (unless there has been data-sharing from clubs, but this should have been declared when the RFL and clubs were collecting that data) so if it genuinely believes that it can't email people that were on its database, then there are two likely reasons; either it has poorly managed its CRM database and can't prove that it has permission to use it, or it has misinterpreted the GDPR regulations. 

However, what GDPR doesn't prevent is using the data it holds to build an audience. It can, for example, use that audience to create 'lookalike' audiences on Facebook or Instagram and advertise to them. It doesn't prevent them from using demographic audience profiling data to build audience personas. It doesn't stop them sending players down to London to drum up support and it doesn't stop them holding interviews with the media. There's actually very little it does stop them doing. 

As for the point about using a marketing agency, it would be touch-and-go as to whether that would pay for itself for the CC Final in isolation (and remember, the Grand Final and Magic Weekend are not an RFL properties any more).

If we assume that the base level for a CC Final with two English teams is around 60k (roughly the attendance when Sheffield played Wigan), that leaves around 25-30k tickets to sell. Assuming an average of around £30 a ticket, that's a potential £900k of additional pre-tax revenue. I've got no idea what the costs of Wembley and putting on the event are when you amortise on a per-ticket basis, so I'll leave that out for now. 

However, I can't imagine that the margin on a £24(+VAT) ticket provides you with much leeway to pay for much in the way of media spend and creative as it is, never mind the various agency fees. On media spend, most decent paid-media agencies will be working on a management fee of around 12% of media spend at least whilst on creative, you're paying a not insignificant hourly rate for those ideas and the research behind them. Agencies aren't cheap.

Personally, I'd much rather see the RFL just try and get the basics right first. I genuinely don't think they've even got the four P's right any more. I don't think the product is right when you consider what a modern sports-goer expects (entertainment, fan parks, etc). I don't think they've got the placement right (why hide all of the content on Our League or only where existing fans can find it?). The promotion is pitiful and I don't even think they've got the pricing right any more - as a regular fan, I know that if I hold off long enough, a discount code will soon turn up in my inbox or on Groupon. Either this is the premium, must-see, blue ribboned event that we keep being told it is, or it's a Sports Direct "stack it high, sell it cheap, closing down, everything must go" sell-off. It can't be both. 

If Red Hall can genuinely say that it is getting all of those right and things still aren't working then fine, bring in the consultants. But if you bring them before you have those things ready, you're going to pay them a lot of money just to get you to the position you should have been in before you gave them the call. 

Edited by whatmichaelsays
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the best and most professional messages I've read on here. Someone should send a copy to Rimmer and ask for his response. Unfortunately,I doubt he would be able to understand it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has anybody received any Groupon or RFL discount for this in the last couple of weeks?

Ignore the cheap tickets sold by clubs, that is a different thing.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Dave T said:

Has anybody received any Groupon or RFL discount for this in the last couple of weeks?

Ignore the cheap tickets sold by clubs, that is a different thing.

 

I got one on Tuesday. 10% off with the code LAST CHANCE

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I got one on Tuesday. 10% off with the code LAST CHANCE

Yes, I recall that one, sat in my inbox too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lobbygobbler said:

Emails and texts are a waste of time.

A big tube/bus billboard campaign and tv ads in London are the answer

This isn’t where we should be spending cash on marketing IMO.

We need targeted ads online using social media, with links to buy tickets there and then.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

This isn’t where we should be spending cash on marketing IMO.

We need targeted ads online using social media, with links to buy tickets there and then.

...plus trying to get stories in local media. The Cup sponsor has presence on high streets so could be a free site for advertising. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

GDPR doesn't in itself prevent companies from doing email marketing. What it does do is demand that companies know and evidence where they got that data from for that email marketing and that they have permission to use it for those purposes.

The reason why so many companies were sending out "do you want to stay on our mailing list?" emails before it came into force is because they didn't have the paper trail to prove that they could satisfy that criteria - either because they'd bought lists, mis-led people into opting-in (confusing tick boxes for example) or because they didn't sufficiently log permissions. 

The RFL should know where it gets its data from. I can't believe that it has bought-in lists (unless there has been data-sharing from clubs, but this should have been declared when the RFL and clubs were collecting that data) so if it genuinely believes that it can't email people that were on its database, then there are two likely reasons; either it has poorly managed its CRM database and can't prove that it has permission to use it, or it has misinterpreted the GDPR regulations. 

However, what GDPR doesn't prevent is using the data it holds to build an audience. It can, for example, use that audience to create 'lookalike' audiences on Facebook or Instagram and advertise to them. It doesn't prevent them from using demographic audience profiling data to build audience personas. It doesn't stop them sending players down to London to drum up support and it doesn't stop them holding interviews with the media. There's actually very little it does stop them doing. 

As for the point about using a marketing agency, it would be touch-and-go as to whether that would pay for itself for the CC Final in isolation (and remember, the Grand Final and Magic Weekend are not an RFL properties any more).

If we assume that the base level for a CC Final with two English teams is around 60k (roughly the attendance when Sheffield played Wigan), that leaves around 25-30k tickets to sell. Assuming an average of around £30 a ticket, that's a potential £900k of additional pre-tax revenue. I've got no idea what the costs of Wembley and putting on the event are when you amortise on a per-ticket basis, so I'll leave that out for now. 

However, I can't imagine that the margin on a £24(+VAT) ticket provides you with much leeway to pay for much in the way of media spend and creative as it is, never mind the various agency fees. On media spend, most decent paid-media agencies will be working on a management fee of around 12% of media spend at least whilst on creative, you're paying a not insignificant hourly rate for those ideas and the research behind them. Agencies aren't cheap.

Personally, I'd much rather see the RFL just try and get the basics right first. I genuinely don't think they've even got the four P's right any more. I don't think the product is right when you consider what a modern sports-goer expects (entertainment, fan parks, etc). I don't think they've got the placement right (why hide all of the content on Our League or only where existing fans can find it?). The promotion is pitiful and I don't even think they've got the pricing right any more - as a regular fan, I know that if I hold off long enough, a discount code will soon turn up in my inbox or on Groupon. Either this is the premium, must-see, blue ribboned event that we keep being told it is, or it's a Sports Direct "stack it high, sell it cheap, closing down, everything must go" sell-off. It can't be both. 

If Red Hall can genuinely say that it is getting all of those right and things still aren't working then fine, bring in the consultants. But if you bring them before you have those things ready, you're going to pay them a lot of money just to get you to the position you should have been in before you gave them the call. 

GDPR is a convenient excuse for all that is wrong.. but GDPR was simply an exercise in cleaning up a messy business. as you say it does all the above which is about traceability and "opting in" but its key was about how you stored personal data and what happens in the event someone nicks it all.. which is hugely important but has nowt to do with mailing lists. 

As has been mentioned over and over though.. its not just mailing lists its all sorts of ways to get infront of people... social media etc.. email marketing is probably less effective than we think simply because of the sheer volume of spam that comes in, if you are interested in the subject/company you will check the email if not you are likely to delete without reading or unsubscribe.. i get loads from companies and they very rarely get me to click through on anything. Social media is a key to getting through. Short, Sharp, in your face (ie you don't have to actively open the email it is a picture and a link on your feed, you may not like it or do anything about it but you have seen it). 

I agree with pretty much everything you say above though (except i do think there is a place for cheaper tickets but it is not in the last ditch effort and everyone is simply waiting for it to happen, its early on). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, cookey said:

It would be nice and appropriate if Totalrl would ask what promotion the RFL do for the Challenge Cup Final. However,the answer is that we send e-mails and texts to people already on our mailing lists.

I got an e-mail from the RFL about the final, but that seems to be only because I had already bought a ticket.

Yes, I had remembered that I was meant to be going, thanks all the same.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, RP London said:

I agree with pretty much everything you say above though (except i do think there is a place for cheaper tickets but it is not in the last ditch effort and everyone is simply waiting for it to happen, its early on). 

I agree that there is a place for discounted tickets, but they have become the default option for both the RFL and many clubs. 

Tactical offers should be just that - tactical. They should be focused on specific groups and demographics - ones that we believe can be turned into full-price customers in the long term. 

But too much of the supporter base has got wise to how this works. There is no FOMO to get you to buy a ticket early and you know that, as the desperation kicks in at Red Hall, the discount codes will come out of hibernation for another year. 

The whole sport has been cheapened by this approach and it's a problem both at RFL and club level. 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I agree that there is a place for discounted tickets, but they have become the default option for both the RFL and many clubs. 

Tactical offers should be just that - tactical. They should be focused on specific groups and demographics - ones that we believe can be turned into full-price customers in the long term. 

But too much of the supporter base has got wise to how this works. There is no FOMO to get you to buy a ticket early and you know that, as the desperation kicks in at Red Hall, the discount codes will come out of hibernation for another year. 

The whole sport has been cheapened by this approach and it's a problem both at RFL and club level. 

i totally agree... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, EssexRL said:

...plus trying to get stories in local media. The Cup sponsor has presence on high streets so could be a free site for advertising. 

Not seen anything in Coral windows yet, or indeed any mention in their shops.

Edited by Dr Tim Whatley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...