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Man of Kent

Play-the-ball clampdown

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6 hours ago, aj1908 said:

Players know how to ptb lol

They roll.it.because it's faster and gives the attack more time against retreating defences 

Coaches will train there players to bend any rule they can to get an advantage 

Coaches are the problem 

No,GHQ are the problem. You can`t tell me the refs don`t know the rules of Rugby League. They`ve been told to turn a blind eye to blatant cheating,ie,letting the players getting away with not playing,or attempting to the ball with the foot. It used to happen in the NRL,not any more and the game`s the better for it.

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Just now, DiddyDave said:

No,GHQ are the problem. You can`t tell me the refs don`t know the rules of Rugby League. They`ve been told to turn a blind eye to blatant cheating,ie,letting the players getting away with not playing,or attempting to the ball with the foot. It used to happen in the NRL,not any more and the game`s the better for it.

The game certainly isn’t better refereed in the NRL. 

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6 minutes ago, DiddyDave said:

Maybe not,but blatant cheating like this certainly doesn`t happen.

Yes it does 

Players spend a lot of time being coaches to bend the rules as much as they can

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7 minutes ago, DiddyDave said:

Maybe not,but blatant cheating like this certainly doesn`t happen.

It’s not blatant cheating and it certainly does happen, however, it’s been penalised more there than it is here. 

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I’m all for playing the ball correctly - by using the heel and I do hope it is policed fairly. 

I also would like to see contested scrums again. 

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Legs, Dews, Legs.

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2 hours ago, DiddyDave said:

Maybe not,but blatant cheating like this certainly doesn`t happen.

If we are labelling an improper play the ball as cheating then we have to say the same for a crooked scrum feed and seeing as though the NRL feed is also to the feet of the loose forward then they are blatantly cheating as well.

Cheating isn't really the right phrase though. As a sport, we simply tolerate some parts of our law book being ignored. I would say 95% of League fans are happy with the scrums as they are (I am in the 5%) but there seems to be a majority who would welcome enforcing a proper play the ball.

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56 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

If I were a coach I would be telling every tackler just to lie down in the ruck.

Attacker cant step forward over you, cant move to the side, has to place the ball on the ground and roll it back with his foot in a tangle of players. We could easily add 4 or 5 seconds to the play the ball. 

We know that if that happened consistently it would be penalised though. To quote Eddie Hemmings 'they can't disappear' - which is true but not attempting to move is a penalty. The part that got ridiculous was dummy halves trying to milk a pen by throwing the ball at tacklers attempting to clear the ruck. Refs know and/or should feel empowered to determine which is which. 

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1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

If we are labelling an improper play the ball as cheating then we have to say the same for a crooked scrum feed and seeing as though the NRL feed is also to the feet of the loose forward then they are blatantly cheating as well.

Cheating isn't really the right phrase though. As a sport, we simply tolerate some parts of our law book being ignored. I would say 95% of League fans are happy with the scrums as they are (I am in the 5%) but there seems to be a majority who would welcome enforcing a proper play the ball.

I think that's fair. IMO (which obviously differs from yours) scrums in league are just a way of restarting the game and should go the way of the team feeding the ball - so just change it to a tap. PTB however is one of the main parts of RL that separate us from the other code and is therefore as important to be done correctly as the tackle count and having 13 a side IMO. 

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A player cannot lie in the ruck. The laws state the following

Speed essential 11. The play-the-ball must be performed as quickly as possible. Any player who intentionally delays the bringing of the ball into play shall be penalised.

So a player lying on the floor will be deemed to be delaying the play the ball and penalised.

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3 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

I think that's fair. IMO (which obviously differs from yours) scrums in league are just a way of restarting the game and should go the way of the team feeding the ball - so just change it to a tap. PTB however is one of the main parts of RL that separate us from the other code and is therefore as important to be done correctly as the tackle count and having 13 a side IMO. 

My view on the scrum has nothing to do with my desire to see contested scrums return. Even as a forward who played in the days that sometimes returned a win against the head, I don't particularly enjoy watching a scrum.

It is more of a perc6issue.

Ask 100 people on the street to name a part of 'rugby' and some will say tries or goals but a huge number will say the scrum and the general view of the scam is that it is a physical contest for possession. 

Here is the bottom line.

The Union scrum is a farce but lit ooks like a serious and genuine physical contest.

The League scrum is a farce and it looks pathetic. 

I just don't like our sport looking soft.

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7 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

So I lay there and then attempt to move. Get in the way of the play the ball. 

If I'm under the attacker or a teammate I cant move. Wait for then to get off, wait a second, slowly get up in the ruck. 

Attacking player then has to move back, place the ball on the ground, roll it back with his foot. I gain a bit of ground and slow the play the ball 

If he tries to play the ball quickly theres a good chance I win a penalty

Like I said, you would hope referees are also been given license to penalise deliberate attempts to slow the play the ball down. 

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6 hours ago, Dunbar said:

My view on the scrum has nothing to do with my desire to see contested scrums return. Even as a forward who played in the days that sometimes returned a win against the head, I don't particularly enjoy watching a scrum.

It is more of a perc6issue.

Ask 100 people on the street to name a part of 'rugby' and some will say tries or goals but a huge number will say the scrum and the general view of the scam is that it is a physical contest for possession. 

Here is the bottom line.

The Union scrum is a farce but lit ooks like a serious and genuine physical contest.

The League scrum is a farce and it looks pathetic. 

I just don't like our sport looking soft.

How many league fans would like to watch scrums

Banning the shoulder charge now there's a mistake in making league look soft 

Edited by aj1908

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9 hours ago, Dunbar said:

My view on the scrum has nothing to do with my desire to see contested scrums return. Even as a forward who played in the days that sometimes returned a win against the head, I don't particularly enjoy watching a scrum.

It is more of a perc6issue.

Ask 100 people on the street to name a part of 'rugby' and some will say tries or goals but a huge number will say the scrum and the general view of the scam is that it is a physical contest for possession. 

Here is the bottom line.

The Union scrum is a farce but lit ooks like a serious and genuine physical contest.

The League scrum is a farce and it looks pathetic. 

I just don't like our sport looking soft.

I think that if the ball was at least put in the middle of the scrum (and even if the opposing hooker was not allowed to strike for the ball but at least making the scrum look like that "serious and genuine physical contest") then it might actually give that bit of more open space after the ball emerges due to the forwards not just being able to just break away almost as soon as the ball is put in but having to wait a few more seconds until it actually does so.

If scrums are to stay the way they are at the moment then I would agree that a referee might as well just award the non-offending team a tap-kick instead. However, clean the scrums up up and yes let's have them.

Edited by RL does what Sky says
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3 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

I think that if the ball was at least put in the middle of the scrum (and even if the opposing hooker was not allowed to strike for the ball but at least making the scrum look like that "serious and genuine physical contest") then it might actually give that bit of more open space after the ball emerges due to the forwards not just being able to just break away almost as soon as the ball is put in but having to wait a few more seconds until it actually does so.

For better or worse, the days of ball-in-the-middle contested scrums are over and aren’t coming back.

It seems to me the league scrum continues to (slowly) evolve away from yawnion’s contest for possession philosophy towards being a ‘guaranteed’ attacking set-piece in line with our philosophy.

It’ll be interesting to see the impact of the NRL’s new ‘pick where you want head & feed’ scrum rule. If it works I could see the other lot pinching the idea for their scrums.

 

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3 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

For better or worse, the days of ball-in-the-middle contested scrums are over and aren’t coming back.

It seems to me the league scrum continues to (slowly) evolve away from yawnion’s contest for possession philosophy towards being a ‘guaranteed’ attacking set-piece in line with our philosophy.

It’ll be interesting to see the impact of the NRL’s new ‘pick where you want head & feed’ scrum rule. If it works I could see the other lot pinching the idea for their scrums.

Yes and that's why I suggested still putting the ball in the middle but not actually having it contested. It might just give a bit more time for open play to develop once the ball comes out as the forwards would have to wait until they were certain it had emerged instead of, as now, just breaking away as soon as it is fed.

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26 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

They are now.

Most of the problems with the PTB stem from the fact that its too much for a referee to monitor whilst getting back the ten. Coaches and players know if they leave an arm in they will get some penalties for a dropped ball they don't deserve, they know if they dont have a grip on the ball they will get some penalties they dont deserve. So thats what they do. Defenders mess around in the ruck slowing it down and messing around with the ball, attackers dont try and keep hold of the ball, the ball squeezes out both players claim, the referee guesses and one player 'wins' the penalty.

Everything we do just rebalances that see-saw, clamp down on players not holding the ball tightly, defenders will push their line to knock it out, clamp down on that, attackers wont try and hold on to it.

Clamp down on both, doesnt really matter because its either an attacking or defensive penalty. Its a zero-sum game. 1 winner, 1 loser and if you dont try and 'win' the penalty you end up as the loser because refs get it wrong

All the problems with the ruck and ptb dont stem from a lack of implementing the rules, it stems from not getting the decisions right and the improvement in the ruck in the NRL doesnt stem from the changes in implementation, it stems from the fact that there is a referee staring right at it and getting more of the decisions right. As long as we keep getting the level of incorrect decisions we get in SL, players will continue to try and 'win' penalties.

 

In my very first post on this thread I said....' Seems weird that so many are laying the blame here at the door of the RFL/SL/Officials. Players know what they need to do and if they don't it should rightly be penalised. Our game is falsely 'fast' because we don't PTB correctly and then a penalty actually gets given for offside, so we don't get less penalties - we just reward the attacking side more. I agree however this will be very difficult to police and is why one of the biggest mistakes made last year was putting the 2 referees concept 'on hold'. 

 

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1 hour ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Yes and that's why I suggested still putting the ball in the middle but not actually having it contested. It might just give a bit more time for open play to develop once the ball comes out as the forwards would have to wait until they were certain it had emerged instead of, as now, just breaking away as soon as it is fed.

more could be made of the "drive" now.. except whenever you see any pushing in the scrum, or a loss against the head the ref seems to want to just re set the scrum rather than the opposition win the ball.. the drive has to be big to win it at the moment due to where the ball is put in but if you put it in the middle you may find more teams using the tactic therefore keeping both teams honest in keeping the bigger players in (weight and strength to hold off the drive or to execute a drive) and keep bound for longer to avoid being driven off the ball. 

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league should just bite the bullet and get rid of the scrum.  it should go the same way as the lineout and rucks and mauls.  they serve little purpose.

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27 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

league should just bite the bullet and get rid of the scrum.  it should go the same way as the lineout and rucks and mauls.  they serve little purpose.

this is that never ending argument that comes around once every 3 months or so.. i totally disagree but think it needs looking at to make it more competitive without it being a mess. 

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14 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I agree entirely on that. Its not just that referees will get more decisions right but the perception that it is being policed well will force players to behave.

I just think at the moment making changes has the potential to make things much worse because we arent addressing the root of the issue but creating more potential for 'winning' penalties which basically means more penalties and more attempts to say the other side are in the wrong and leaving the referee to guess more.

Personally, if we cant have two refs right now for whatever reason, id like to see SL trial having the VR at televised matches watching a camera trained on the ruck and advising the ref as the 2nd ref and see how that works. If it works well, then the VR can be rolled out to all of SL and remove the need for a 2nd referee aswell

i liked the idea earlier of the ref having to be up with play in and around the play the ball (as per the 2nd ref) and assistants dealing with the offside line. I dont really see why the ref has to be in the defensive line running that, they are all mic'd up (or should be/could be with ease) so the assistant can easily say "3 is offside" to the ref while they play advantage. 

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4 minutes ago, RP London said:

this is that never ending argument that comes around once every 3 months or so.. i totally disagree but think it needs looking at to make it more competitive without it being a mess. 

The only argument people use is that it gets the forwards out of the way and gives the backs some room to play.  This never actually happens.

Edited by aj1908

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2 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

The only argument people use is that it gets the forwards out of the way and gives the backs some room to play.  This never actually happens.

That is because it doesn't even do that anymore because it is so stale you have wingers and centres going in to allow the forwards to be the first hit up.. its also down to poor coaching that they don't see the opportunity, it is a risk but the reward can be there, at the moment coaches seem to shy away from any risk though and go for the tried and tested 2 out but still 1 drive up the middle. 

Clean up the scrum to be competitive whilst favouring the team with the feed (they have the feed) and i think you would get more going on out the back too. 

as i say its an argument that happens every few months and always is the same.. personally i want some variation rather than every offence being a tap to restart.. but the scrum at the moment i would agree needs work but i wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater but just try and pull it back to something worthwhile. 

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21 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I agree entirely on that. Its not just that referees will get more decisions right but the perception that it is being policed well will force players to behave.

I just think at the moment making changes has the potential to make things much worse because we arent addressing the root of the issue but creating more potential for 'winning' penalties which basically means more penalties and more attempts to say the other side are in the wrong and leaving the referee to guess more.

Personally, if we cant have two refs right now for whatever reason, id like to see SL trial having the VR at televised matches watching a camera trained on the ruck and advising the ref as the 2nd ref and see how that works. If it works well, then the VR can be rolled out to all of SL and remove the need for a 2nd referee aswell

That's not a bad idea at all - my only concern would be that the already heavy criticism SL gets for only having VR at televised games would be intensified if we then started reviewing other areas of the game, more than just the awarding of tries. First step must be to have VR at all games for it's current remit IMO. 

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4 minutes ago, RP London said:

That is because it doesn't even do that anymore because it is so stale you have wingers and centres going in to allow the forwards to be the first hit up.. its also down to poor coaching that they don't see the opportunity, it is a risk but the reward can be there, at the moment coaches seem to shy away from any risk though and go for the tried and tested 2 out but still 1 drive up the middle. 

Clean up the scrum to be competitive whilst favouring the team with the feed (they have the feed) and i think you would get more going on out the back too. 

as i say its an argument that happens every few months and always is the same.. personally i want some variation rather than every offence being a tap to restart.. but the scrum at the moment i would agree needs work but i wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater but just try and pull it back to something worthwhile. 

Yeh on a first tackle teams won't risk losing the ball.

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