The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[tms]

1 hour ago, DimmestStar said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Toronto don't make an application. I expect a 11 team Super League in 2021.

The Super League competition, under the conditions of the Sky Contract, stipulates a 12-team division.

[Gooleboy]

3 minutes ago, POR said:

The Super League competition, under the conditions of the Sky Contract, stipulates a 12-team division.

The great man Mr Elstone speaking today in LE, said the SL could be an 11 team competition next season. I wonder who could have put that idea into his head.

[wiganermike]

5 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

The great man Mr Elstone speaking today in LE, said the SL could be an 11 team competition next season. I wonder who could have put that idea into his head.

The big problem with an odd number of teams is how to incorporate MW which SL have already committed to next year. Despite his talk of 11 teams being a possibility (I also saw the article) I still expect 12 teams to be in SL next year.

[meast]

Expansion eh.....

[Oldbear]

6 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Booted out, then. For now.
Ricky Wilby to the rescue?

I‘d rather rely on Ricky Gervais!

[Oldbear]

4 hours ago, wiganermike said:

The big problem with an odd number of teams is how to incorporate MW which SL have already committed to next year. Despite his talk of 11 teams being a possibility (I also saw the article) I still expect 12 teams to be in SL next year.

Could they have an 11 team league next year and just not include Catalans in Magic? Is that even possible? The reason I raise it is that given that there will be no Championship you can’t promote anyone. Parachuting a team in is likely to set off a whole raft of lawsuits from the other candidates with a strong case and I see absolutely no way that Toronto would be back next year, they have no owner, no assets, no sponsors and very soon no players and although technically there’s time to sort that out it’s not that much time, given that SL needs a prompt start next year as it’s a World Cup year. So unless there’s a hidden plan to relegate someone and give a 10 team comp, or someone else in SL is about to go pop an 11 team comp seems like the only solution.

[bobbruce]

3 hours ago, Oldbear said:

Could they have an 11 team league next year and just not include Catalans in Magic? Is that even possible? The reason I raise it is that given that there will be no Championship you can’t promote anyone. Parachuting a team in is likely to set off a whole raft of lawsuits from the other candidates with a strong case and I see absolutely no way that Toronto would be back next year, they have no owner, no assets, no sponsors and very soon no players and although technically there’s time to sort that out it’s not that much time, given that SL needs a prompt start next year as it’s a World Cup year. So unless there’s a hidden plan to relegate someone and give a 10 team comp, or someone else in SL is about to go pop an 11 team comp seems like the only solution.

Who would Catalans play to make up the extra fixture. 

[Toby Chopra]

23 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Who would Catalans play to make up the extra fixture. 

We already have several rounds of loop fixtures, it's just that with 11 teams someone is on a bye every week. So you just make sure Cats have their bye on Magic weekend. 

 

[GUBRATS]

17 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

We already have several rounds of loop fixtures, it's just that with 11 teams someone is on a bye every week. So you just make sure Cats have their bye on Magic weekend. 

 

No , do the maths , take off your shoes and socks if necessary

[Toby Chopra]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

No , do the maths , take off your shoes and socks if necessary

We went through all the maths on this on a thread a while back when we were pondering 13 team league. 

It's possible to have Cats sit out on MW if you have several rounds of loop fixtures as we do now. This issue is that half the teams end up with one less home game overall. There's ways to compensate for that if they want too, especially as they have the 12th team's money to play with.

Not saying 11 teams will happen, but it's an option.

The worst outcome for me would be SL readmitting a massively weakened Toronto team just to make up the numbers and pocket the TV share, shorn of its best players and getting hammered every week. I'd rather see 11 teams than that. 

[Harry Stottle]

12 hours ago, wiganermike said:

That statement certainly suggests that David Argyle not being involved was a condition of TWP being allowed to continue in the RFL/SL competitions. Hopefully the change in ownership will lead to a more stable and sustainable future for the club.

But as I eluded to earlier after Bradford changed ownership the club still had to accept the punishment of going into administration the previous season on the watch of a different organisation, the precedent has been set, will it be changed if the Toronto club gets new owner's will they be allowed back into SL?

Edit. before anyone points out that TWP have not gone into administration yes I know that, but having renaged on playing their fixtures this season I doubt that will be a pat on the head and told to run along.

[Dave T]

19 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

But as I eluded to earlier after Bradford changed ownership the club still had to accept the punishment of going into administration the previous season on the watch of a different organisation, the precedent has been set, will it be changed if the Toronto club gets new owner's will they be allowed back into SL?

Edit. before anyone points out that TWP have not gone into administration yes I know that, but having renaged on playing their fixtures this season I doubt that will be a pat on the head and told to run along.

While I think there should be repercussions for their behaviour (Argyle moving on clearly seems a good approach) it can't be ignored that the Championship, League One, the original Challenge Cup fixtures and the Ashes, plus all reserve comps, women's SL, and Academy comps have been cancelled this year - with the RFL heavily involved in all of these. 

There is no precedent here. Not even close. 

[Harry Stottle]

59 minutes ago, Dave T said:

While I think there should be repercussions for their behaviour (Argyle moving on clearly seems a good approach) it can't be ignored that the Championship, League One, the original Challenge Cup fixtures and the Ashes, plus all reserve comps, women's SL, and Academy comps have been cancelled this year - with the RFL heavily involved in all of these. 

There is no precedent here. Not even close. 

Yes but Toronto took in on themselves to cancel the fixtures, did you yourself not say that they had ample opportunity prior to the short notice statement of cancellation they issued that it could have been timed much better?

The RFL were yes probably involved, along with 11 other SL clubs and Toronto who all agreed to resume fixtures, only Toronto have renaged, and not with the RFL's heavy involvement I may add.

Do you think as a club if should they carry on next season they will be exonerated and not have some sort of penalty they will have to stand?

[RayCee]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes but Toronto took in on themselves to cancel the fixtures, did you yourself not say that they had ample opportunity prior to the short notice statement of cancellation they issued that it could have been timed much better?

The RFL were yes probably involved, along with 11 other SL clubs and Toronto who all agreed to resume fixtures, only Toronto have renaged, and not with the RFL's heavy involvement I may add.

Do you think as a club should they carry on next season they will be exonerated and not have some sort of penalty they will have to stand?

The situation the WP faced wasn’t due to factors within their control. SL should be sympathetic to that and offering support, not making them reapply. 

[Davo5]

12 minutes ago, RayCee said:

The situation the WP faced wasn’t due to factors within their control. SL should be sympathetic to that and offering support, not making them reapply. 

You'd have thought TWP would have factored in a global pandemic and the following worldwide recession into their business model !!!

[Toby Chopra]

15 minutes ago, RayCee said:

The situation the WP faced wasn’t due to factors within their control. SL should be sympathetic to that and offering support, not making them reapply. 

Incorrect. They committed to restarting AFTER all the facts about how the pandemic would affect them were known. They could have suspended 2020 operations much earlier with the leagues consent, and lived to fight another day. Instead, they waited until the revised TV schedules were set and then tried to bounce the other clubs into giving them more money.

Such behaviour cannot go unpunished. 

[The Rocket]

8 hours ago, Oldbear said:

I‘d rather rely on Ricky Gervais!

Or Ricky Martin.

[Dave T]

31 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes but Toronto took in on themselves to cancel the fixtures, did you yourself not say that they had ample opportunity prior to the short notice statement of cancellation they issued that it could have been timed much better?

The RFL were yes probably involved, along with 11 other SL clubs and Toronto who all agreed to resume fixtures, only Toronto have renaged, and not with the RFL's heavy involvement I may add.

Do you think as a club should they carry on next season they will be exonerated and not have some sort of penalty they will have to stand?

You seem to have ignored my first point that there needs to be repercussions for their behaviour, so I don't need to answer much of what is there as I have been clear and critical of their approach.

Whether they participate in SL next year depends on what happens next. But any punishment should be along the lines of bringing the comp into disrepute and I think should be financial, rather than hitting them for their inability to fulfil the fixtures, as the majority of the game is not fulfilling fixtures. 

I think if we saw a new ownership team, with financial guarantees given, no central funding for a set period (whether that is one year or whatever) and a probationary period agreed, then I would have no issues with them playing next year, as quite simply much of this year from an RL point of view is a write-off. I have doubts about whether they will be able to sort this in a short period of time required, but this year was a false start, and I'd like to see what TWP can bring to SL. 

[Dave T]

31 minutes ago, RayCee said:

The situation the WP faced wasn’t due to factors within their control. SL should be sympathetic to that and offering support, not making them reapply. 

They absolutely should reapply. That is the minimum they should expect, they now need to prove their sustainability. The dishonesty, which is something I have called out many times of TWP is what they should be getting challenged over. 

[Harry Stottle]

18 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Incorrect. They committed to restarting AFTER all the facts about how the pandemic would affect them were known. They could have suspended 2020 operations much earlier with the leagues consent, and lived to fight another day. Instead, they waited until the revised TV schedules were set and then tried to bounce the other clubs into giving them more money.

Such behaviour cannot go unpunished. 

And player's visa's were definitely of their own making, I think the statement about Ricky Leutele about packing up and leaving his home in Manchester says a lot, suppose Ricky had suffered a bad injury that kept him out of the game for a number of months he would have recouperated at home with his family in Manchester, in this country requiring a longer visa, the very same situation would also apply to all the other player's requiring Visa's they all live in the UK, how that was overlooked by Toronto was bad management.

[Dave T]

15 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Incorrect. They committed to restarting AFTER all the facts about how the pandemic would affect them were known. They could have suspended 2020 operations much earlier with the leagues consent, and lived to fight another day. Instead, they waited until the revised TV schedules were set and then tried to bounce the other clubs into giving them more money.

Such behaviour cannot go unpunished. 

Yes, this is what should be punished, rather than the actual outcome of not having the money. 

And as usual, SLE were criticised for not giving them the loan - who on earth would provide a loan to a company who had run out of money and had no plan on where they were going to get more?

[Lowdesert]

I think they will end up in the Champs next season and imo that is the best place for them.  In the scale of things, it might be a blessing in disguise.  

They didnt have a competitive squad or even enough numbers for his season.  The defeats and injuries would have been telling.

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

I think they will end up in the Champs next season and imo that is the best place for them.  In the scale of things, it might be a blessing in disguise.  

They didnt have a competitive squad or even enough numbers for his season.  The defeats and injuries would have been telling.

I think this is my where frustration with them comes from. 

I have loved watching the progress they have made, they have been a breath of fresh air and seeing their home games packed with new fans has given hope to how the game can expand into virgin territory. 

However, I think they have a more negative tone over the last 12m, and I think the lack of an Eric Perez who oozed charm and positivity and made you buy into it was a big issue.

Their life in SL was an absolute disaster, even before Covid. They messed up their squad, complained about salary cap, failed to stage these big events in Europe, instead opting for a game at Saracens that didn't transpire, a cheap double header at Headingley, and a lacklustre damp squib of an event at Warrington! This was hardly the trail-blazing that we hoped for. And they were pretty rubbish, considering their squad was the most expensive ever assembled in Super League. 

A reboot is what they need, and they need a burst of energy and positivity, I'm not convinced McDermott is the right man for this project either. 

I genuinely hope they can get an ownership deal quickly that is good enough to warrant a place in SL, but a place in the Championship may be the best thing. 

[Harry Stottle]

2 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

I think they will end up in the Champs next season and imo that is the best place for them.  In the scale of things, it might be a blessing in disguise.  

They didnt have a competitive squad or even enough numbers for his season.  The defeats and injuries would have been telling.

Hi LD, considering the Champ clubs are not as let's say as financially blessed as SL clubs who still demanded flight and subsistence compensation for visiting Canada, and Mr Argyle says TWP should no longer stand those costs for visiting clubs, so do you think TWP whoever the ownership lies with will still cover those costs?

I think that if they want to play in the British Rugby League system it is something they will have to carry on doing in whatever division they are in. 

Also a couple of months ago, maybe not that long there were rumours that some of the L1 clubs were seemingly against the trips they will have to make to Ottawa, not heard anything since, anyone.

[Harry Stottle]

11 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think this is my where frustration with them comes from. 

I have loved watching the progress they have made, they have been a breath of fresh air and seeing their home games packed with new fans has given hope to how the game can expand into virgin territory. 

However, I think they have a more negative tone over the last 12m, and I think the lack of an Eric Perez who oozed charm and positivity and made you buy into it was a big issue.

Their life in SL was an absolute disaster, even before Covid. They messed up their squad, complained about salary cap, failed to stage these big events in Europe, instead opting for a game at Saracens that didn't transpire, a cheap double header at Headingley, and a lacklustre damp squib of an event at Warrington! This was hardly the trail-blazing that we hoped for. And they were pretty rubbish, considering their squad was the most expensive ever assembled in Super League. 

A reboot is what they need, and they need a burst of energy and positivity, I'm not convinced McDermott is the right man for this project either. 

I genuinely hope they can get an ownership deal quickly that is good enough to warrant a place in SL, but a place in the Championship may be the best thing. 

Not for any other reason than just an honest question, having already spent two season's in the Championship where the novelty of going to and recieving a team from t'other side of the Atlantic could be waning and being a case for the fans of seen it, done that, what do you consider they bring to the Championship?