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3 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

They're not suspicions - Billy Vunipola openly supported Folau and his beliefs until somebody at the RFU had a quiet word. He wasn't the only one. 

Thanks, that's one. One does not equal many.

If there is such a thing as religious stereotyping then Mr. Sadler has just done that, and you have attempted to support him.

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7 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I was raised as a Roman Catholic and was taught that God loved homosexuals but had a downer on homosexual acts. But then he also abhorred adultery among heterosexuals.

It just seem odd to me to talk of tolerance and inclusiveness while seeking to ban people for views that are not widely accepted in the modern world.

I suspect that many Rugby League and Union players from the South Pacific Islands would hold religious views that are not a million miles away from Folau's. So do we ban them as well?

No because they don't preach these views. Look past the headlines an the IF story is much more than a couple of social media posts. He preaches an extreme interpretation of Christianity. He has now been given a bigger platform for his views whether he opens his mouth again or not. 

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Imagine the impossibility of now promoting or defending the moral superiority RL in a diverse and hyper tolerant place like my home city of Brighton. It can't be done....

No moral high ground for RL anymore. In fact, no moral component whatsoever. 

An unnecessary stain on the game. What are Catalans thinking??

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Everyone has the right to their own beliefs - that's fine. When those beliefs are made public and done in away that is designed to hurt others, that's a different matter. Society then has the right to criticise your actions and you have to take the consequences - that's what has happened with Folau.

As for Catalan, it's true they haven't broken any rules, but hell. this seems like a seriously bad move. It's not as if they have a poor team and are really desperate for a good player.

I wonder if Folau will be 'injured' when they play Wigan?

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6 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Nobody has even come close to suggesting that people be banned for their religious views.

It is entirely about how they are expressed. Falou was warned about how he expressed his views and how they were at odds with the stated inclusiveness of the ARU. He continued to express his views and his contract was terminated. 

He has clearly been told by Catalan that he should not express these views as the statement announcing his signing said he would keep his views to himself.

The bottom line is that being tolerant of people's beliefs and views is not a licence for them to be intolerant. 

It's perfectly within an employer's rights to seek assurances about the social media activity of an employee.

And if a contract is thereby breached, and the contract spells out the consequences of the breach, then there is very little argument.

Unfortunately the ARU's position wasn't so watertight, so his departure did come with a significant payoff.

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6 minutes ago, LR23 said:

No because they don't preach these views. Look past the headlines an the IF story is much more than a couple of social media posts. He preaches an extreme interpretation of Christianity. He has now been given a bigger platform for his views whether he opens his mouth again or not. 

And how many people has he converted to his views?

I Would say none 

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7 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

Thanks, that's one. One does not equal many.

If there is such a thing as religious stereotyping then Mr. Sadler has just done that, and you have attempted to support him.

Yes claiming islanders are deeply religious is such a controversial statement 

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6 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

Thanks, that's one. One does not equal many.

If there is such a thing as religious stereotyping then Mr. Sadler has just done that, and you have attempted to support him.

Oh, Jim that's naive and way off the mark from you at best. I expected better. 

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8 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

Thanks, that's one. One does not equal many.

If there is such a thing as religious stereotyping then Mr. Sadler has just done that, and you have attempted to support him.

I haven't stereotyped anyone.

I've just made the observation that many rugby players from the South Pacific have strong religious beliefs.

Unless you have been watching the game with your eyes closed, I would be surprised if you could disagree.

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13 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I was raised as a Roman Catholic and was taught that God loved homosexuals but had a downer on homosexual acts. But then he also abhorred adultery among heterosexuals.

It just seem odd to me to talk of tolerance and inclusiveness while seeking to ban people for views that are not widely accepted in the modern world.

It seems odd to me, that a sport that prides itself on inclusivity would choose to welcome into its house somebody who has been actively rejected from participating in other sports due to their views on a large section of the population.

It’s easy for us white, straight males on here to pontificate that such messages of hate would be water off a ducks back – in the unlikely event we should ever face such targeted, consistent and unwarranted hate - on the technicality we don’t believe in heaven and it’s an isolated incident. Great, except it’s not because if I were a young gay man, Folau’s  message might just be the latest in the line of a lifetime of degrading, disparaging, downright hurtful comments I had faced in my life – not everyone is as Teflon as yourself and can’t dismiss it with such ease– I suspect the more of this drivel you have to face, the more your resolve could ebb away. Despite what some think, homophobia is still alive and well – better, yes – but still hurtful as anything.

Perhaps I could stomach your “inclusivity” argument, had Folau given any sort of hint that he was interested in any sort of opinion than his own. Good on Wigan for acting fast, but the conversation can’t end there.

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2 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Oh, Jim that's naive and way off the mark from you at best. I expected better. 

OK. If you want to follow the stance that "many" Islanders harbour the same views as Folau, that's up to you.

I'm happy being naive enough to give people the benefit of the doubt until they actually open their mouths.

You carry on though.

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2 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I haven't stereotyped anyone.

I've just made the observation that many rugby players from the South Pacific have strong religious beliefs.

Unless you have been watching the game with your eyes closed, I would be surprised if you could disagree.

I have strong religious beliefs, but I would be unhappy if you attempted to align mine with those of Folau, which is what you did with other South Pacific players in your previous post.

If you were not attempting to make that point, then which point were you making exactly?

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I hope every other club goes out of their way to publicly shame Folau this year by organizing pre-match events before their home games with Catalans with an LGBT theme.

Hold some form of Pride event inside & outside the stadium. Instead of having kids as the mascots invite members of the LGBT community to take their place and stand side by side with the players wearing a full rainbow kit. Watch the homophobic little ###### Folau squirm at having to stand in the middle of the pitch pre-kick off with all this going on around him.

Time for RL to stand up to intolerant people like him and show them that as a sport we embrace people from diverse backgrounds. 

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7 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

Yes claiming islanders are deeply religious is such a controversial statement 

That's not what he was doing though, and you know it.

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3 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Taking this back to Folau as a RL player - I think the other argument has been done to death. 

73 tries in 91 NRL games, 6 in 8 for Aus and 5 in 5 for Qld - this guy is a ridiculously talented player and could really change the chances Cats have of getting in that top 5 this year. RL off-season signing wise, he blows SBW out of the water IMO. 

He has not played league for a decade though

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8 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

And how many people has he converted to his views?

I Would say none 

He raised millions to support his court case. Most of that will have been from people with views far more moderate than his own. So he obviously has some pull. And he is now exposed to a new audience on a national platform.

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What exactly are "religious beliefs" ?

Aren't they just a person's own ideas on how they should live and what rules they should obey according to the preaching of someone they believe to be the supreme ruler ?

If people get some comfort from having such beliefs then that is fine but they should never think that those feelings can overrule the law of the land.

As I said in another thread, suppose I was a part of the Digambara sect of the Jainism religion which requires believers to be naked wherever they go, would I be allowed to walk around the town like that ? I doubt it ... and if not then why do others think they don't have to keep to the law because of their "religious beliefs" ?

 

Edited by RL does what Sky says

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5 minutes ago, Amber Avenger said:

It seems odd to me, that a sport that prides itself on inclusivity would choose to welcome into its house somebody who has been actively rejected from participating in other sports due to their views on a large section of the population.

It’s easy for us white, straight males on here to pontificate that such messages of hate would be water off a ducks back – in the unlikely event we should ever face such targeted, consistent and unwarranted hate - on the technicality we don’t believe in heaven and it’s an isolated incident. Great, except it’s not because if I were a young gay man, Folau’s  message might just be the latest in the line of a lifetime of degrading, disparaging, downright hurtful comments I had faced in my life – not everyone is as Teflon as yourself and can’t dismiss it with such ease– I suspect the more of this drivel you have to face, the more your resolve could ebb away. Despite what some think, homophobia is still alive and well – better, yes – but still hurtful as anything.

Perhaps I could stomach your “inclusivity” argument, had Folau given any sort of hint that he was interested in any sort of opinion than his own. Good on Wigan for acting fast, but the conversation can’t end there.

Tolerance isn't really tolerance if you only allow opinions to be expressed that you agree with.

Diversity isn't really diversity if we exclude people with opinions that are different from the norm.

I'm sad to say that many people are not open to changing their opinion on a range of issues.

In terms of being a young gay man, I would have agreed with you at one time.

But now I would suggest that there are many role models in many walks of life for young gay men and women to seek to emulate.

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7 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

I have strong religious beliefs, but I would be unhappy if you attempted to align mine with those of Folau, which is what you did with other South Pacific players in your previous post.

If you were not attempting to make that point, then which point were you making exactly?

I wouldn't dream of commenting on your religious beliefs. I obviously have no idea what they are.

But I do know that many South Pacific islanders have strong and very traditional Christian beliefs, as I'm sure you must know too.

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I imagine most sl players have a friend or relative that is gay or lesbian and it doesn't matter to them one bit, if hes done one thing he has put himself up for some "special attention" from opposition players and supporters, this wont be an easy ride for him at all. if I was him I would be making a full and frank apology in a statement to the press and ask for a fresh start if not he will be a lamb to the slaughter.


the grass may be greener on the other side of the fence but the crows are just as black

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3 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said:

I imagine most sl players have a friend or relative that is gay or lesbian and it doesn't matter to them one bit, if hes done one thing he has put himself up for some "special attention" from opposition players and supporters, this wont be an easy ride for him at all. if I was him I would be making a full and frank apology in a statement to the press and ask for a fresh start if not he will be a lamb to the slaughter.

Agreed.  But why do we ever need to know what sexual orientation people are ... and has anybody ever "come out" and stated they are openly hetrosexual ?

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15 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Tolerance isn't really tolerance if you only allow opinions to be expressed that you agree with.

Diversity isn't really diversity if we exclude people with opinions that are different from the norm.

I'm sad to say that many people are not open to changing their opinion on a range of issues.

In terms of being a young gay man, I would have agreed with you at one time.

But now I would suggest that there are many role models in many walks of life for young gay men and women to seek to emulate.

Inclusivity isn't really inclusive if people don't feel safe to be themselves. It's a fine balance.

On your last two lines - I don't doubt there are more gay role models (was this even in doubt..?). Personally I'm not sure this negates the sheer amount of vitriol gay people still encounter. In the nicest possible way, I'd suggest you speak to some young gay people on the matter, as I don't think they'd totally align with your outlook. 

Edited by Amber Avenger
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Play off mini league winner - 2002. Bronze Medalist - 2003. Big Split Group Winner - 2006. Minor Stupidship - 2005, 2006. Cup Silver Medalist - 2008, 2009

CHAMPION - 2005, 2009, 2010

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9 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I wouldn't dream of commenting on your religious beliefs. I obviously have no idea what they are.

But I do know that many South Pacific islanders have strong and very traditional Christian beliefs, as I'm sure you must know too.

Yes, I know that many Islanders have strong religious beliefs, I just don't know how we get from that that point to the point of them holding the same sort of beliefs that Folau is spouting.

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Hope there won’t be a leader in next week’s League Express attempting to condone Israel Folau’s actions....

Edited by Man of Kent
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1 minute ago, Amber Avenger said:

Inclusivity isn't really inclusive if people don't feel safe to be themselves. It's a fine balance.

On your last two lines - I don't doubt there are more gay role models (was this even in doubt..?). Personally I'm not sure this lessons the sheer amount of vitriol gay people still encounter. In the nicest possible way, I'd suggest you speak to some young gay people on the matter, as I don't think they'd totally align with your outlook. 

I do speak to gay people quite regularly and you are right to suggest that their views don't 'totally' align with mine. Like any group of people, there are some widely varying views.

But that's what we would surely expect.

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