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Academy Licensing (2022 - 27) - (Merged threads)


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Posted (edited)

I'm putting on my tin foil hat here and preparing for an onslaught after this post!

I'm a big advocate for the community game and believe that expanding the grass roots is the most important target for RL. I've posted a few things on this thread, mainly about merged academies or less academies. I'm now starting to sway slightly the other way. 

One thing I do believe is that no players should be taken from the community games until after u16s. If we can grow community RL at u16 and below then we'll never be short of quality players. 

One thing I would like to know though is how detrimental to community RL is not having a strong u18s league? If more clubs have academies resulting in u18s struggling for players will that massively affect community RL overall?

 

Edited by JM2010
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1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

We seem to agree that the RFL have been forced into agreeing to whatever the clubs want to do.

One of us thinks that’s problematic. 

If the RFL was competent it would be problematic. Given that certainly my last 40 years’ personal experience, including interviewing for and declining a job there under the Lewis/Wood regime, tells me they’re not fit for purpose then I feel somewhat differently about it...

 

 

 

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On 04/06/2021 at 01:55, RigbyLuger said:

Hope to see all these politicians much more involved in RL issues, not just to cover themselves in glory. Did Turner ask KR why they had a joint academy before as that can't have helped, nor some of their employees.

I seriously doubt they will. They are just thinking of the next General election

Is Turner a Rugby League fan or has ever been to a Rugby League game and if so how many times? Like most people I'm very sceptical when it comes to most not all politicians getting involved with sport, epecially ours

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, DimmestStar said:

If numbers have decreased in the past 20-30 years there's only one club to blame for that Hull FC.

Good news is that in the past 2 years numbers have increased significantly. Rovers have invested a large amount of money into the academy in the past 2 years with the coup of attracting the widely respected Head of Youth John Bastian.

Rovers have a large squad of U16's and a large squad of U18's. There's a smile on their faces tonight and frankly they won't care about a few people on here who think it would have been better if they had been thrown on the scrapheap.

You fail to address any of the issues raised, yet continue on a bizarre notion that if these players weren’t playing in your substandard academy, that they’d be lost to the game. Clueless 

Edited by DoubleD
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39 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

Employing the respected Bastian is negated by the nonsense fellow Rovers employee Cockayne comes out with on social media. Is he a good person to guide young players?

You seem to be implying that the purpose of an academy should be about more than just on the pitch success for a handful of lads.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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28 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

If the RFL was competent it would be problematic. Given that certainly my last 40 years’ personal experience, including interviewing for and declining a job there under the Lewis/Wood regime, tells me they’re not fit for purpose then I feel somewhat differently about it...

 

 

 

We definitely both agree that the RFL isn't competent.

Where we differ is that you seem to believe that the clubs you support are competent. I'm all too aware that most of them share the RFL's failings, indeed pretty much guarantee the RFL's failings.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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20 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

You seem to be implying that the purpose of an academy should be about more than just on the pitch success for a handful of lads.

I have no idea what they're supposed to be, but can see how some are painting themselves are perfect when they have obvious flaws in their plans.

Too much of this killing kids dreams stuff in the past few weeks, when the vast majority won't get a sniff of a game in Super League.

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2 hours ago, DimmestStar said:

Ever since the decision was made it seemed inevitable that it would be overturned. It was possibly the worst decision the RFL has ever made and that's saying something.

A compromise has been reached which allows Rimmer to save face and keep his highly paid job.

The kids at Hull KR will be absolutely delighted and the brilliant work started by John Bastion 2 years ago can continue.

I didn’t want to raise this but any suggestions that ‘brilliant’ work done by Bastion is just not the case, in fact, his approach is one of the problems.

In 2019, Bastion signed 19 players from just one club, Skirlaugh.  The rest came from 8 other clubs.  They also signed 43 players when the limit was 40.  I don’t call that brilliant.

If this was my own club, Hull, I would say the same as this approach is wrong.  

Decimating amateur teams has a long term impact on the community game.  Right now, in Hull, there are a total of 44 teams across 5 age groups up up U18.  Around 600 players.  Two clubs taking 14-15% every year is too much. 

 

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8 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

I have no idea what they're supposed to be, but can see how some are painting themselves are perfect when they have obvious flaws in their plans.

Too much of this killing kids dreams stuff in the past few weeks, when the vast majority won't get a sniff of a game in Super League.

The vast majority don’t get a sniff mate.  Very few get reasonable numbers through to first team standard in SL.  Saints, Leeds, Wigan after that it’s sporadic but some are catching up.

To get 2 or 3 out of a squad of 40 is good going.  

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13 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

You fail to address any of the issues raised, yet continue on a bizarre notion that if these players weren’t playing in your substandard academy, that they’d be lost to the game. Clueless 

Tell me where these 50 or so kids would go to if Rovers had been forced to show them the door.

Right now they are playing competitive aspirational Rugby League and have the support of the long established Hull KR education dept. now headed by Liz Winn Head of Education and Business Development at Hull Kingston Rovers. Rovers take these kids on and don't just teach them Rugby League they are given extra education and prepared for a future within or without the game.

Rovers actually care about these kids. You know what? Some of them aren't used to that.

We hope some of them make it to Super League and with coaching from the likes of John Bastian and Danny McGuire they have a chance. If they don't well they have been given a terrific life experience to make them better people. Rovers academy far from being substandard is actually breaking ground.

Rimmer said it's fine these kids being in tears now because most academy kids end up in tears anyway. Hull Kingston Rovers profoundly disagree with that.

We want to improve them as people, prepare them for life and give them the chance to achieve their dream of being a Super League player. Now thank goodness they can hold on to their dreams.

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8 minutes ago, DimmestStar said:

Tell me where these 50 or so kids would go to if Rovers had been forced to show them the door.

Right now they are playing competitive aspirational Rugby League and have the support of the long established Hull KR education dept. now headed by Liz Winn Head of Education and Business Development at Hull Kingston Rovers. Rovers take these kids on and don't just teach them Rugby League they are given extra education and prepared for a future within or without the game.

Rovers actually care about these kids. You know what? Some of them aren't used to that.

We hope some of them make it to Super League and with coaching from the likes of John Bastian and Danny McGuire they have a chance. If they don't well they have been given a terrific life experience to make them better people. Rovers academy far from being substandard is actually breaking ground.

Rimmer said it's fine these kids being in tears now because most academy kids end up in tears anyway. Hull Kingston Rovers profoundly disagree with that.

We want to improve them as people, prepare them for life and give them the chance to achieve their dream of being a Super League player. Now thank goodness they can hold on to their dreams.

And all that was possible without having an Elite Academy status. The difference being, it didn’t decimate the community game, leaving clubs like Skirlaugh without enough players to field a team

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18 minutes ago, DimmestStar said:

Tell me where these 50 or so kids would go to if Rovers had been forced to show them the door.

Now thank goodness they can hold on to their dreams.

Before shattering them 2 years down the line, cos yet again, they have failed to do what is required to turn them into pro players.

Since the scrapping of the CoH academy, how many have progressed from HKRs academy, to their first team?

The actual number?

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13 minutes ago, dboy said:

Before shattering them 2 years down the line, cos yet again, they have failed to do what is required to turn them into pro players.

Since the scrapping of the CoH academy, how many have progressed from HKRs academy, to their first team?

The actual number?

The whole idea is that it takes 6 years.

I don't expect to see more than 1 or 2 Hull FC products in the 17 tomorrow do you? And even then they will be bit part players.

The good thing is that any youngster hoping to make it can be assured that if they sign for Rovers they will have a ground-breaking professional experience whether they do or do not make it to Super League.

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1 hour ago, Lowdesert said:

I didn’t want to raise this but any suggestions that ‘brilliant’ work done by Bastion is just not the case, in fact, his approach is one of the problems.

In 2019, Bastion signed 19 players from just one club, Skirlaugh.  The rest came from 8 other clubs.  They also signed 43 players when the limit was 40.  I don’t call that brilliant.

 

This

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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11 minutes ago, DimmestStar said:

The whole idea is that it takes 6 years.

I don't expect to see more than 1 or 2 Hull FC products in the 17 tomorrow do you? And even then they will be bit part players.

The good thing is that any youngster hoping to make it can be assured that if they sign for Rovers they will have a ground-breaking professional experience whether they do or do not make it to Super League.

BS.

What have HKR been doing for the last 3 years?

Are you suggesting that HFC took all the CoH academy products??

If HFC maybe have 2 products, and you have none - WTF has the CoH academy been doing?

All you have described there is a situation where not only HKR should have been declined a licence, but HFC also!

 

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3 minutes ago, dboy said:

BS.

What have HKR been doing for the last 3 years?

Are you suggesting that HFC took all the CoH academy products??

If HFC maybe have 2 products, and you have none - WTF has the CoH academy been doing?

All you have described there is a situation where not only HKR should have been declined a licence, but HFC also!

 

I think I have more than explained what Hull KR have been doing for the last 3 years.

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1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

We definitely both agree that the RFL isn't competent.

Where we differ is that you seem to believe that the clubs you support are competent. I'm all too aware that most of them share the RFL's failings, indeed pretty much guarantee the RFL's failings.

London Broncos certainly aren’t competent, I spent 15 years in exile suffering Hughes’ constant investment in the wrong thing - the next random Aussie - rather than fan development 

 

Hull KR on the other hand are a lesson in saving a club and re-building it at the centre of it’s community, despite all the odds stacked against it. If Broncos had Hudgell for any decade since 1980 it would be a consistent Top 4 side. Believe me I speak as a bloke who wishes London did. 

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1 minute ago, DimmestStar said:

I think I have more than explained what Hull KR have been doing for the last 3 years.

They’re not interested mate. Hull KR could have become Featherstone or Hunslet, a permanent 2nd tier club in the shadow of their local top tier neighbours. Well run perhaps, but secondary. Instead everyone around the club refused to settle, and we clawed our way back. Lots of people hate it, sadly. 
 

 

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7 minutes ago, DimmestStar said:

I think I have more than explained what Hull KR have been doing for the last 3 years.

Then I'm guessing you wrote the HKR bid.

Please answer - who are the HKR products, let's say over the last 5 years, so you can use CoH products too?

Names?

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1 hour ago, dboy said:

Then I'm guessing you wrote the HKR bid.

Please answer - who are the HKR products, let's say over the last 5 years, so you can use CoH products too?

Names?

Missing the point spectacularly, it’s not about the past, it’s about the future 

 

Hull KR didn’t get the benefit of the first 12 years of TV money. We almost went bust multiple times. When we finally grafted our way into the party, the club’s focus was on survival. Once we’d created some sort of stability, we started to invest in youth systems - that stuff will pay off in the next 5-10 years. Just like it did in London, this stuff takes time.

 

What we can say is that Rovers advances local youth, even if we had to surrender most of it to FC over the lost decades. 2 of our 3 spine players are from Hull, and next season it’s likely Mikey Lewis will be at FB after he’s learnt his trade at York, so the core 1/7/9 will be local lads. That’s our future, and we love it. 
 

 

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14 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

A proper Rugby League move, this. We propose change and make plans for it and a handful of clubs riding the coat tails of everyone else are dragging us back. 

Exactly right, it is a perfect snap shot of rugby league.

The RFL have spent three years on this process - from talking to clubs at every level of the game from community upwards, to designing the evaluation, to bringing in outside experts in elite athlete development from Sports England, to reviewing the applications, and finally awarding 10 of the 12 licences available. 

And then, because of the reaction from a handful of people who don't understand what's going on (or refuse to engage beyond wailing and stamping their feet) they've ignored all of that work and reversed course.

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"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

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11 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

I didn’t want to raise this but any suggestions that ‘brilliant’ work done by Bastion is just not the case, in fact, his approach is one of the problems.

In 2019, Bastion signed 19 players from just one club, Skirlaugh.  The rest came from 8 other clubs.  They also signed 43 players when the limit was 40.  I don’t call that brilliant.

If this was my own club, Hull, I would say the same as this approach is wrong.  

Decimating amateur teams has a long term impact on the community game.  Right now, in Hull, there are a total of 44 teams across 5 age groups up up U18.  Around 600 players.  Two clubs taking 14-15% every year is too much. 

 

The North East RL has around 130 kids playing at U16s - which appears to be comparable to Hull. And yet some would have us believe there is sufficient playing talent to justify two academies in the latter. 

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"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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13 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

I didn’t want to raise this but any suggestions that ‘brilliant’ work done by Bastion is just not the case, in fact, his approach is one of the problems.

In 2019, Bastion signed 19 players from just one club, Skirlaugh.  The rest came from 8 other clubs.  They also signed 43 players when the limit was 40.  I don’t call that brilliant.

If this was my own club, Hull, I would say the same as this approach is wrong.  

Decimating amateur teams has a long term impact on the community game.  Right now, in Hull, there are a total of 44 teams across 5 age groups up up U18.  Around 600 players.  Two clubs taking 14-15% every year is too much. 

 

Wow

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3 hours ago, nadera78 said:

Exactly right, it is a perfect snap shot of rugby league.

The RFL have spent three years on this process - from talking to clubs at every level of the game from community upwards, to designing the evaluation, to bringing in outside experts in elite athlete development from Sports England, to reviewing the applications, and finally awarding 10 of the 12 licences available. 

And then, because of the reaction from a handful of people who don't understand what's going on (or refuse to engage beyond wailing and stamping their feet) they've ignored all of that work and reversed course.

What would have been the worst that would have happened had the RFL not caved in? That's what no-one has really explained without talking nonsense about dreams. 

The current top try scorer in the Championship, Gale at Fev, was signed by them in his mid 20s. Did he just appear from nowhere?

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