Are you worried about attendances?

[Dave T]

8 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Play off games should be a premium, not a discount! There supposed to be important so should be priced accordingly, not given away.

The problem is, that is all well and good Wellsy, but the crowds will be shocking and we will scratch our heads again. 

We have a culture of Season Tickets in RL. We either spend years moving away from that, or we embrace it further and get better crowds. 

And it isn't just RL - look at the controversy over the Man City crowd the other day - 38k versus their average 53k for a European opener. 

[Damien]

32 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The problem is, that is all well and good Wellsy, but the crowds will be shocking and we will scratch our heads again. 

We have a culture of Season Tickets in RL. We either spend years moving away from that, or we embrace it further and get better crowds. 

And it isn't just RL - look at the controversy over the Man City crowd the other day - 38k versus their average 53k for a European opener. 

Other sports have just as much as a season ticket culture and but certainly don't suffer the same when it comes to premium events and one off games. In RL we are talking about literally a handful of Challenge Cup games and play off games.

Also season tickets have always existed in RL for as long as I can remember. They are nothing new and RL never used to suffer the way it does now. It's only in the last 15-20 years or so that this dependency, and so called season ticket culture that we all refer to in RL, has really taken hold. I suspect the often cheap price of season tickets and general laziness that exists when it comes to selling the game has contributed to this. When a fan has bought a season ticket for £65 it then becomes awfully difficult to sell a one off game for £25.

[Dave T]

40 minutes ago, Damien said:

Other sports have just as much as a season ticket culture and but certainly don't suffer the same when it comes to premium events and one off games. In RL we are talking about literally a handful of Challenge Cup games and play off games.

Also season tickets have always existed in RL for as long as I can remember. They are nothing new and RL never used to suffer the way it does now. It's only in the last 15-20 years or so that this dependency, and so called season ticket culture that we all refer to in RL, has really taken hold. I suspect the often cheap price of season tickets and general laziness that exists when it comes to selling the game has contributed to this. When a fan has bought a season ticket for £65 it then becomes awfully difficult to sell a one off game for £25.

I've highlighted the 15k missing fans at Man City the other night. I've also been at the Etihad for cup games with 30k in. Even Man Utd have empty seats at some cup games. Often these are hidden at football because the demand can exceed the capacities. 

We have really focused on the season ticket culture - that can't be ignored. Fans didn't just suddenly change their behaviour and stop going to cup games, we changed the purchasing behaviours. 

But history is irrelevant in this discussion anyway, as things stand, people attend season ticket games, and only around maybe 60 to 70% attend all pay games. We can't blindly ignore that and complain that fans should come. 

Rugby Union does also include group Cup games in season tickets for example - things can be done differently. 

[Spidey]

I’m sure I remember something about playoff gates being shared between those who qualify, so prices can’t be discounted?

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I’m sure I remember something about playoff gates being shared between those who qualify, so prices can’t be discounted?

Yes, it's a SL event - so arrangements are made centrally. Wire fans were asking could they just exchange their tickets for a postponed game earlier in the year and being told no for this reason. 

[gingerjon]

37 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Rugby Union does also include group Cup games in season tickets for example - things can be done differently. 

I *believe* that RU essentially got rid of all the Cups that were union controlled - and so would require revenue sharing and the like - and now just has the European ones which are club controlled (or at least club entity controlled) so the qualifying clubs can do what they like with regards to season ticket entry (etc).

[Rugbyleaguesupporter]

43 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I’m sure I remember something about playoff gates being shared between those who qualify, so prices can’t be discounted?

Yes, it's such a stupid rule. 

I take points about premium games should command higher prices, but we are where we are, rather than where we want to be. 

4 sell out matches before grand final would have better long term impact- it's essential the new revenue distribution allows for this. 

Holy grail would be a central rfl ticketing site for all club and international matches- easy to use/ buy, could link in with our league. Sell tickets on their till midnight day before and then do in person pay on day sales. 

[Damien]

26 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I've highlighted the 15k missing fans at Man City the other night. I've also been at the Etihad for cup games with 30k in. Even Man Utd have empty seats at some cup games. Often these are hidden at football because the demand can exceed the capacities. 

We have really focused on the season ticket culture - that can't be ignored. Fans didn't just suddenly change their behaviour and stop going to cup games, we changed the purchasing behaviours. 

But history is irrelevant in this discussion anyway, as things stand, people attend season ticket games, and only around maybe 60 to 70% attend all pay games. We can't blindly ignore that and complain that fans should come. 

Rugby Union does also include group Cup games in season tickets for example - things can be done differently. 

The semi finals of the Champions League wont have empty seats. That is our play off equivalent. Comparisons between football and RL are usually not particularly valid and awfully selective, as this is. In football there may be 20+ games not on a season ticket, in RL it is very few and if we had 2/3s full stadiums for a mid week cup game v Catalans I don't think anyone would complain. The trouble is in Football it is not particularly the norm or a problem, certainly not for key matches, in RL it most certainly is the norm and is certainly a problem.

How have we focused on season tickets? I certainly agree there is a season ticket culture but apart from making them very cheap I cant recall any real focus. They have become the same lazy way of selling as we have seen through nearly all of our big events. Sell them cheap and job done for the rest of the season. There is nothing wrong with season tickets, they have a place and are fine but the balance has been skewed and when a season ticket sells for £65 a one off game for £25 becomes an awfully hard sell and seems like terrible value. As I said they have always been there but few people used them compared to now. Season tickets, in conjunction, with other general failures in the marketing and selling of the game have led to where we now stand.

I do agree that is now where we are but I do think the game needs to change that and not just keep going down the cheap sells path. I know the game has never been blue chip but it was always more akin to a Morrisons than the Bargain Booze that we have now become. The game really has to work collectively to change that across the board. As I said previously I would try to shift towards a membership approach where someone pays an amount upfront such as £80, as they would for a season ticket, but then get a big discount for each game thereafter. The club still gets money upfront but fans still buy tickets on a weekly basis and get back in that habit. Fans could also benefit from other club discounts and one off games wouldn't be such a huge cost. We can still have season tickets but something like this would provide a halfway house and move us away from that culture.

[Tommygilf]

How have the attendances been for the final regular round? 

Wakefield V Hull was understandably not fantastic. Some parts of Leeds v KR looked good but the north stand was sparse again.

 

[Rugbyleaguesupporter]

@Damientheoretically I see the attraction in membership and I'd like it myself, but in practice I don't think it works. 

I don't thin lots of people get their calculators out too much for ST. 

In short term: 

If 13 homes games, sell standing pass for £200, £250 for a seat. 

£20 on day to stand, £25 to sit. Allow simple pay on day. 

Keep grand final premium, but sell play offs and cup games cheap to boost crowds. 

[meast]

Rugby League, like a lot of sports these days seems very reluctant to announce attendance figures anymore.

The only attendances I can find are Huddersfield's, which, obviously due to pandemic and the mismatched nature of the competition this year aren't great!

[Dave T]

55 minutes ago, Damien said:

The semi finals of the Champions League wont have empty seats. That is our play off equivalent. Comparisons between football and RL are usually not particularly valid and awfully selective, as this is. In football there may be 20+ games not on a season ticket, in RL it is very few and if we had 2/3s full stadiums for a mid week cup game v Catalans I don't think anyone would complain. The trouble is in Football it is not particularly the norm or a problem, certainly not for key matches, in RL it most certainly is the norm and is certainly a problem.

How have we focused on season tickets? I certainly agree there is a season ticket culture but apart from making them very cheap I cant recall any real focus. They have become the same lazy way of selling as we have seen through nearly all of our big events. Sell them cheap and job done for the rest of the season. There is nothing wrong with season tickets, they have a place and are fine but the balance has been skewed and when a season ticket sells for £65 a one off game for £25 becomes an awfully hard sell and seems like terrible value. As I said they have always been there but few people used them compared to now. Season tickets, in conjunction, with other general failures in the marketing and selling of the game have led to where we now stand.

I do agree that is now where we are but I do think the game needs to change that and not just keep going down the cheap sells path. I know the game has never been blue chip but it was always more akin to a Morrisons than the Bargain Booze that we have now become. The game really has to work collectively to change that across the board. As I said previously I would try to shift towards a membership approach where someone pays an amount upfront such as £80, as they would for a season ticket, but then get a big discount for each game thereafter. The club still gets money upfront but fans still buy tickets on a weekly basis and get back in that habit. Fans could also benefit from other club discounts and one off games wouldn't be such a huge cost. We can still have season tickets but something like this would provide a halfway house and move us away from that culture.

We shouldnt base our discussion on season tickets around clubs like Huddersfield. I think the going rate for a SL season ticket starts at around £200-250.

We started to really push season tickets in the early 90s and into the early SL era. My club started the £10 kids season tickets, and they became standard and extended to include away games for example. Direct debit schemes weee pushed for season tickets, Magic discounts, extra benefits added etc. And it's all a good strategy, at a time when there are a lot of competitors in the family entertainment market, often for far cheaper than RL.  Season ticket sales are fare more prominent than when I started watching, where the cash turnstiles were the busy ones. 

I also don't recognise a time when RL was representative of a different demographic. When I was growing up RL was Northern Booze and fags. I think it still would be if tobacco advertising was allowed. In fact we now have bookies and vaping. I agree that its a failure of us to not move that dial, but it's been that all my lifetime tbh. 

[Dave T]

52 minutes ago, Rugbyleaguesupporter said:

@Damientheoretically I see the attraction in membership and I'd like it myself, but in practice I don't think it works. 

I don't thin lots of people get their calculators out too much for ST. 

In short term: 

If 13 homes games, sell standing pass for £200, £250 for a seat. 

£20 on day to stand, £25 to sit. Allow simple pay on day. 

Keep grand final premium, but sell play offs and cup games cheap to boost crowds. 

I'm hoping to go to the Wire v Hull KR game next week, but it's likely I'll be nipping up on my own as people are busy and working. Tbh, it's a choice between going sitting in a 40% full stadium with a lacking atmosphere, or sitting at home with a few beers watching it on TV. Many will choose the latter. A sense of obligation is driving me to buy a ticket and go. 

I'd do whatever it takes to fill the grounds for playoffs in the short term. The crowds were half decent when we had a 5 team playoff, we have extended it and ruined it by wateribgbthem down, and now as we go back to 4, 5 or 6 team playoffs the damage has been done. 

[Davo5]

Nearly 13k at Wigan last night with not a lot at stake & what looked like a big crowd at Leeds,or is that being too positive for the forum.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Nearly 13k at Wigan last night with not a lot at stake & what looked like a big crowd at Leeds,or is that being too positive for the forum.

I think Wigan did a lot of good stuff in promoting this game with some bring-a-friend type stuff. 

 

[Davo5]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think Wigan did a lot of good stuff in promoting this game with some bring-a-friend type stuff. 

 

Which begs the question,why don’t they & others do it regularly.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Davo5 said:

Which begs the question,why don’t they & others do it regularly.

Beats me. Considering the actual marketing activities that take place are relatively modest, I do think there should be more effort for each game. 

 

[Harry Stottle]

On 18/09/2021 at 09:32, Damien said:

When a fan has bought a season ticket for £65 it then becomes awfully difficult to sell a one off game for £25.

Please elaborate how many clubs have season tickets at those prices, I am a concession over 65, but mine was just over £200.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

21 hours ago, Davo5 said:

Nearly 13k at Wigan last night with not a lot at stake & what looked like a big crowd at Leeds,or is that being too positive for the forum.

14k plus at Headingly....great to see

[The storm]

11 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

14k plus at Headingly....great to see

Im gonna buy a season ticket for my own team widnes vikings next season without a doubt. 

 

This season ive been to more games that in recent years and its that routine that is needed. 

[Scubby]

On 18/09/2021 at 12:34, Dave T said:

Beats me. Considering the actual marketing activities that take place are relatively modest, I do think there should be more effort for each game. 

 

Genuinely think they have been spooked into this. I think there was some element of complacency that crowds would just roll back without clubs having to do much.

Huge off season for the SL clubs. It is not a lost cause but it is a noticable decline that needs action.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Scubby said:

Genuinely think they have been spooked into this. I think there was some element of complacency that crowds would just roll back without clubs having to do much.

Huge off season for the SL clubs. It is not a lost cause but it is a noticable decline that needs action.

On the positive, the nervousness around attending games does appear to have settled down, so hopefully that doesn't become an issue moving into 2022. I think Magic showed that crowds can at least return (and Magic probably had less effort than ever) - but agree that he off-season needs to be an all-out approach - no stone should be left unturned. 

I hope that the new TV deal and the new elements of that (coverage at every game - maybe VR's at every game?) - BBC coverage? etc. may lead to a bit of a relaunch of the comp - not unlike what Elstone was leading just before the world fell apart. 

Big and bold should be the approach for the next 2 years. 

[whatmichaelsays]

21 minutes ago, Dave T said:

On the positive, the nervousness around attending games does appear to have settled down, so hopefully that doesn't become an issue moving into 2022. I think Magic showed that crowds can at least return (and Magic probably had less effort than ever) - but agree that he off-season needs to be an all-out approach - no stone should be left unturned. 

I hope that the new TV deal and the new elements of that (coverage at every game - maybe VR's at every game?) - BBC coverage? etc. may lead to a bit of a relaunch of the comp - not unlike what Elstone was leading just before the world fell apart. 

Big and bold should be the approach for the next 2 years. 

Comparing the forthcoming play-off attendances with previous years will be a useful benchmark IMO. These are, for the most part, our best-supported clubs, the argument that people haven't bought season tickets is less relevant, and the games all have meaning. If the attendances are notably below previous years, I think that will concern some. 

But I still think that Christmas, when the clubs look at their season ticket and merchandising sales, will be the main bellwether of where we're at.

[Dave T]

20 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Comparing the forthcoming play-off attendances with previous years will be a useful benchmark IMO. These are, for the most part, our best-supported clubs, the argument that people haven't bought season tickets is less relevant, and the games all have meaning. If the attendances are notably below previous years, I think that will concern some. 

But I still think that Christmas, when the clubs look at their season ticket and merchandising sales, will be the main bellwether of where we're at.

Yep, unfortunately I think they'll be as bad as ever! 

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Comparing the forthcoming play-off attendances with previous years will be a useful benchmark IMO. These are, for the most part, our best-supported clubs, the argument that people haven't bought season tickets is less relevant, and the games all have meaning. If the attendances are notably below previous years, I think that will concern some. 

But I still think that Christmas, when the clubs look at their season ticket and merchandising sales, will be the main bellwether of where we're at.

The popular opinion is having purchased a season ticket punters are against paying the full admission price, obviously play off games can not be included in the ST purchase as it is an unknown how many or if any there would be, surely the club's could charge the same price per game as they arrive to ST holders for the same price they pay per game when they purchase their season tickets, surely those who have not purchased ST's would begrudge them paying a lower admission price?