Toulouse out of pocket again

[glossop saint]

21 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Then they should play all their games in France Eddie, but you know what that means I presume?

How was it a disadvantage, apart from Fev they were streets ahead of any opposition they were visiting a little like Leigh this season, if Leigh played all 28 league games away with the settled squad they have now I wouldn't expect them to lose........... any, nor should Toulouse have with a better squad than all the other Championship teams and all full time player's as well.

I would wager there are those who would have been in raptures with Toulouse running up big scores hosting part timers who would be getting time of work, travelling out to France and back the same day, before back to work the next.

A massive disadvantage my backside.

Bad wording by Eddie but I'm pretty certain you understand that his point is that the only games they play are away games in a foeign country. I don't think anyone is disputing Toulouse had advantages (very similar to those which Leigh have this year so you do run the risk of being hypocritical here). They also have disadvantages. Just because teams have advantages doesn't mean that they don't have disadvantages, such as playing only their away games. I'm not sure why some people are either struggling to grasp that, or being so belligerent to deny it.

[Harry Stottle]

38 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

Any excuse for an away fan argument eh Harry? 

You know full well that my point was that having no away fans there to support you puts you at a significant disadvantage. Part of the reason for a home and away season which is all good and proper. But when you don't have that reverse fixture then you don't get the advantage. 

Word twisting at its best there I'm afraid. Which to me suggests that you agree with my point that it was not an advantage to Toulouse.

Not at all I answered it quite honestly, and as for the highlighted bit, The French clubs understandably so do not have much following in any League games, so they will always be disadvantaged on that score.

I have followed up answering another post on whether I think Toulouse were disadvantaged, no I do not.

And you have brought up the fan argument Glossop, tell me I am wrong with who clubs would prefer to host given the figures I quoted, actually in '17 nearly 3,000 followed Leigh to Wigan putting approx 100,000K in the till, as I say a no brainer.

[Harry Stottle]

13 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

(very similar to those which Leigh have this year so you do run the risk of being hypocritical here

How so, I have said that with the squad and being full time, Leigh would probably not lose a game, as Toulouse should not have done and didn't last year.

[binosh]

After last nights game at Wigan no one can tell me that away fans are not important to the game, financially, aesthetically and for atmosphere. Saints fans should be applauded.

[The Future is League]

9 minutes ago, binosh said:

After last nights game at Wigan no one can tell me that away fans are not important to the game, financially, aesthetically and for atmosphere. Saints fans should be applauded.

A clubs business plan shouldn't involve away fans. Clubs should be doing match awareness.

[Barley Mow]

2 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

A clubs business plan shouldn't involve away fans. Clubs should be doing match awareness.

Why shouldn't away fans form part of clubs' business plan?

Of course they are never going to be the largest source of income, but they will always be a source of income that needs to be factored in. 

Different clubs will bring different levels of away support and those differing numbers need to be included in all clubs' business plans.

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Why shouldn't away fans form part of clubs' business plan?

Of course they are never going to be the largest source of income, but they will always be a source of income that needs to be factored in. 

Different clubs will bring different levels of away support and those differing numbers need to be included in all clubs' business plans.

People are talking absolute bobbins with claims like away fans shouldn't be part of a budget.  Of course they should. Nobody ever says we shouldn't include merchandise income in budget. 

Away fans is a modest but important line as they are generally all paying. 

If you can average 1k per game,  that's 13k paying fans. At fifteen quid a pop that's £200k per annum.  More than many sponsorship deals.  Plus you have ancillary income on top. If you can drive that higher then of course you have more income. 

It's actually really stupid to claim it shouldn't be in budgets. 

[Damien]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

People are talking absolute bobbins with claims like away fans shouldn't be part of a budget.  Of course they should. Nobody ever says we shouldn't include merchandise income in budget. 

Away fans is a modest but important line as they are generally all paying. 

If you can average 1k per game,  that's 13k paying fans. At fifteen quid a pop that's £200k per annum.  More than many sponsorship deals.  Plus you have ancillary income on top. If you can drive that higher then of course you have more income. 

It's actually really stupid to claim it shouldn't be in budgets. 

But it's not much of an argument to exclude a single club on that basis. I don't think anyone has argued that we should have 13 French teams and no away fans all season. Clubs still have away fans at the vast majority of home fixtures. Using your figures Toulouse being in SL is a club losing 15k in lost fans. It's small change for a fully professional sport.

[Barley Mow]

58 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Why shouldn't away fans form part of clubs' business plan?

Of course they are never going to be the largest source of income, but they will always be a source of income that needs to be factored in. 

Different clubs will bring different levels of away support and those differing numbers need to be included in all clubs' business plans.

Instead of reacting with a confused face @The Future is League why not give the reasons for your view and answer the question I put - Why shouldn't away fans form part of clubs' business plan?

I imagine you aren't confused by what I wrote, but just disagree and I'm genuinely interested why you think any organisation should discount any source of income from their business plan.

I'm not saying that clubs should be included/rejected from super league based on the number of away fans they take to matches and it should only be included in a business plan to a proportionate degree - I just don't understand why a club's business plan shouldn't involve away fans at all.

[Dave T]

42 minutes ago, Damien said:

But it's not much of an argument to exclude a single club on that basis. I don't think anyone has argued that we should have 13 French teams and no away fans all season. Clubs still have away fans at the vast majority of home fixtures. Using your figures Toulouse being in SL is a club losing 15k in lost fans. It's small change for a fully professional sport.

Yup, 100% agree,  but that's a whole different point though than people saying away fan income shouldn't form any part of your budgets 

Where there is a sensible discussion required on away fans is when you are thinking about what you want the gameday experience to be.  For a long time the game has been built around teams based close to each other,  and still largely is.  A lot of fans have grown up attending games that have good away fans presence (even if relatively modest on number)  and there is no question that moving to an international league,  or one that features 2 French teams,  a Canadian team,  London etc does impact this,  so I have some sympathy for people who don't like this. It is something that some don't like about the RU Pro 14 thing. 

But,  times change,  and games against these teams need to be built in a different way,  and many clubs do.  And there is the point that at times,  some clubs only bring 2 or 300 anyway so it can be a lacklustre experience.  

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yup, 100% agree,  but that's a whole different point though than people saying away fan income shouldn't form any part of your budgets 

Where there is a sensible discussion required on away fans is when you are thinking about what you want the gameday experience to be.  For a long time the game has been built around teams based close to each other,  and still largely is.  A lot of fans have grown up attending games that have good away fans presence (even if relatively modest on number)  and there is no question that moving to an international league,  or one that features 2 French teams,  a Canadian team,  London etc does impact this,  so I have some sympathy for people who don't like this. It is something that some don't like about the RU Pro 14 thing. 

But,  times change,  and games against these teams need to be built in a different way,  and many clubs do.  And there is the point that at times,  some clubs only bring 2 or 300 anyway so it can be a lacklustre experience.  

Coincidentally this popped up on my social media from Wigan. Essentially all key workers are eligible for 2 free tickets each. The club also did a big promotion for the Toulouse game. Clubs can either make the most of these games and see them as opportunities or moan. I know which I prefer and which is better for the game:

 

[glossop saint]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Not at all I answered it quite honestly, and as for the highlighted bit, The French clubs understandably so do not have much following in any League games, so they will always be disadvantaged on that score.

I have followed up answering another post on whether I think Toulouse were disadvantaged, no I do not.

And you have brought up the fan argument Glossop, tell me I am wrong with who clubs would prefer to host given the figures I quoted, actually in '17 nearly 3,000 followed Leigh to Wigan putting approx 100,000K in the till, as I say a no brainer.

I did not bring 'the fan argument' up. I asked how it could be seen as an advantage to play only away games with no away following. And somehow people don't seem to think it is (yet aren't willing to say they would be content in that scenario).

This really is like playing chess with pigeons at times.

[Barley Mow]

6 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

I did not bring 'the fan argument' up. I asked how it could be seen as an advantage to play only away games with no away following. And somehow people don't seem to think it is (yet aren't willing to say they would be content in that scenario).

This really is like playing chess with pigeons at times.

Chess with pigeons

We should see if any French broadcasters would show that!

[Harry Stottle]

5 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Chess with pigeons

We should see if any French broadcasters would show that!

There would probably be more interest in it.

[Harry Stottle]

20 hours ago, glossop saint said:

Would you be happy if your team only played away matches next year? And with next to no away fans? Having flown to get there?

The fact is that they played less games, not that it is an advantage.

 

17 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

I did not bring 'the fan argument' up. I asked how it could be seen as an advantage to play only away games with no away following. And somehow people don't seem to think it is (yet aren't willing to say they would be content in that scenario).

This really is like playing chess with pigeons at times.

Yep I can see you didn't bring up away fans from that first post

Now go to confession and say 10 Our Fathers and 10 Hail Mary's, or you will never go heaven.

[glossop saint]

4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

Yep I can see you didn't bring up away fans from that first post

Now go to confession and say 10 Our Fathers and 10 Hail Mary's, or you will never go heaven.

That is not 'the fan argument', not the one that goes in ever decreasing circles on this forum. I really had you down as much more intelligent as that Harry. Perhaps not. Or perhaps just more mischievous?

To be clear the context of the initial comment was whether having an absence of your own fans in the stadium would be an advantage or disadvantage. Again, something that no one seems to want to admit. 

[The Future is League]

1 hour ago, Barley Mow said:

Instead of reacting with a confused face @The Future is League why not give the reasons for your view and answer the question I put - Why shouldn't away fans form part of clubs' business plan?

I imagine you aren't confused by what I wrote, but just disagree and I'm genuinely interested why you think any organisation should discount any source of income from their business plan.

I'm not saying that clubs should be included/rejected from super league based on the number of away fans they take to matches and it should only be included in a business plan to a proportionate degree - I just don't understand why a club's business plan shouldn't involve away fans at all.

The first rule of business is that you can't have more money going out than coming in. How can you factor in away fans in your business plan when you don't know how many are coming in over the season?

[Barley Mow]

14 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

The first rule of business is that you can't have more money going out than coming in. How can you factor in away fans in your business plan when you don't know how many are coming in over the season?

That applies equally to home fans, to food and drink sales, to replica shirt sales and various other income streams.

Away fans are a subset of attendance figures - clubs must include expected attendance figures (or related income) in their business plans to be able to budget. Of course it will never be 100% precise, but clubs should know how well matches against different opposition sell in general terms and as part of a breakdown of that, how many fans the opposition are likely to contribute. All businesses predict future income and its breakdown to some degree.

Excluding away fans is no different to excluding merchandise sales from a business plan.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Barley Mow

[GUBRATS]

5 hours ago, Damien said:

Coincidentally this popped up on my social media from Wigan. Essentially all key workers are eligible for 2 free tickets each. The club also did a big promotion for the Toulouse game. Clubs can either make the most of these games and see them as opportunities or moan. I know which I prefer and which is better for the game:

 

 

4 hours ago, The Future is League said:

The first rule of business is that you can't have more money going out than coming in. How can you factor in away fans in your business plan when you don't know how many are coming in over the season?

Seriously ?  

If you'd have set up and/or run a business where you are selling a product , be that chicken pies , Aston Martin cars or entertainment in shape of a RL game then yes ideally you want more money coming in than going out , but most likely no company can accurately predict exactly how many of those items they will sell over a twelve month period , they will estimate and hope it will be more 

That's how business works 

Edited August 27, 2022 by GUBRATS

[The Future is League]

15 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

That applies equally to home fans, to food and drink sales, to replica shirt sales and various other income streams.

Away fans are a subset of attendance figures - clubs must include expected attendance figures (or related income) in their business plans to be able to budget. Of course it will never be 100% precise, but clubs should know how well matches against different opposition sell in general terms and as part of a breakdown of that, how many fans the opposition are likely to contribute. All businesses predict future income and its breakdown to some degree.

Excluding away fans is no different to excluding merchandise sales from a business plan.

You know ish with home games what you will get from home fans. You can't say that with away fans

[Barley Mow]

1 minute ago, The Future is League said:

You know ish with home games what you will get from home fans. You can't say that with away fans

Clubs will have data going back years and years on how many away fans different clubs have brought in the past. Hull FC knowing that KR have brought between X and Y thousand in the past and Salford have brought between A and B hundred* means that they can factor that into their business plan in the same way they know they get more home fans against Saints than they do against Wakefield*.

It isn't just random - there is a pattern to it which clubs use to predict income in the same way as any other income stream.

If clubs just said 'right, we discount the fact that away fans exist' they may end up budgeting less for their wage bill and end up with a poorer team as a result.

*Apologies to Wakefield and Salford fans, I'm not trying to pick on you!

[Davo5]

14 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Clubs will have data going back years and years on how many away fans different clubs have brought in the past. Hull FC knowing that KR have brought between X and Y thousand in the past and Salford have brought between A and B hundred* means that they can factor that into their business plan in the same way they know they get more home fans against Saints than they do against Wakefield*.

It isn't just random - there is a pattern to it which clubs use to predict income in the same way as any other income stream.

If clubs just said 'right, we discount the fact that away fans exist' they may end up budgeting less for their wage bill and end up with a poorer team as a result.

*Apologies to Wakefield and Salford fans, I'm not trying to pick on you!

Do they have data going back years for Thursday night games or games moved by Sky at short notice and do they have a magic logarithm that takes into account how the away teams are playing ?

 

[Barley Mow]

9 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Do they have data going back years for Thursday night games or games moved by Sky at short notice and do they have a magic logarithm that takes into account how the away teams are playing ?

 

I'm sure adjustments can be made to any prediction to take such factors into account (based on data that is held) - Again this applies to home fan numbers as much as away fans.

I just can't agree that any single income stream should be excluded from a business plan.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Barley Mow

[PECETTO]

23 hours ago, Fevrover said:

They were the rules when Toulouse got promoted so its hardly shock.

Fair then?

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, Davo5 said:

Do they have data going back years for Thursday night games or games moved by Sky at short notice and do they have a magic logarithm that takes into account how the away teams are playing ?

 

Do McDonalds know exactly how many Big Mac's , Chicken Sandwiches and Banana milkshakes they will sell next Thursday ?