Toulouse out of pocket again

[Dave T]

8 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Super League is ultimately beneficial to them, and the way to get there is currently only through the Championship (and League 1).

That doesn't make that a sensible or best utilisation of resources by the sport as a whole.

The route is a slightly different point,  and I don't disagree with that,  we'll see what comes out of the strategic review.

But as things stand,  if there is a £500k cost each year for having Toulouse in the UK structure,  then it is either paid for by the UK clubs,  or Toulouse. The alternative may be that the UK game decides there is no benefit to that half a million quid cost and says no to entry. 

As I say,  there is a reason Toulouse have paid,  and will continue to pay. 

[Dave T]

18 hours ago, Derwent said:

£500k to fund the opposition travel costs ? For 12 home games against UK opposition ? Fantasy figure. No way does it cost over £40k per trip. 

Tbh,  I think its clear the number is not right,  and I expect it includes their 14 away games too. 

[Dave T]

6 hours ago, Davo5 said:

Why does a so called elite league insist on a newly promoted team forking out a large amount of money for so called elite teams travel costs ?

I’d say it’s reasonable to feel sorry for Toulouse just as it was for Leigh last year,another victim of the pathetic shortsightedness that blights the sport.

Let me try and explain my thinking a little better. 

Toulouse were not part of the UK pyramid,  when they applied,  there was a decision to make. If saying yes to them means there is a cost to the game of half a million,  then it needs to be clear who is going to pay.  The UK clubs may argue they get no benefit so why should they find this? 

The benefits clearly go to Toulouse,  who simply can't be as big as they are in the French pyramid. So they get the benefits and they pay the costs. That isn't as unreasonable as people make out.  We shouldn't be so uncomfortable about making people pay for things.

Once in SL,  I think things should be clearer,  this shouldn't be left to any kind of negotiation at all,  and whatever the terms of overseas teams entering SL are,  should be laid out clearly

But ultimately,  it is telling that despite a bit of grumbling,  the overseas teams who have been tasked with paying,  have been prepared to do so,  suggesting that the numbers stack up for them. 

[Davo5]

18 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Let me try and explain my thinking a little better. 

Toulouse were not part of the UK pyramid,  when they applied,  there was a decision to make. If saying yes to them means there is a cost to the game of half a million,  then it needs to be clear who is going to pay.  The UK clubs may argue they get no benefit so why should they find this? 

The benefits clearly go to Toulouse,  who simply can't be as big as they are in the French pyramid. So they get the benefits and they pay the costs. That isn't as unreasonable as people make out.  We shouldn't be so uncomfortable about making people pay for things.

Once in SL,  I think things should be clearer,  this shouldn't be left to any kind of negotiation at all,  and whatever the terms of overseas teams entering SL are,  should be laid out clearly

But ultimately,  it is telling that despite a bit of grumbling,  the overseas teams who have been tasked with paying,  have been prepared to do so,  suggesting that the numbers stack up for them. 

Prepared to pay or have no choice & why stop at foreign teams,should London,Cornwall & even the Cumbrian teams be forced to cover travel costs for the M62 mob ?

 

[kiggy]

12 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

13 games 25 plane tickets £3000 plus 13 rooms for 2 nights £2500 plus food  is less than £100k. Have you seen the hotels the champ teams are put up in btw

Depends. Charterering, if the teams want a fast turn around is about 30k return. Scheduled is a lot cheaper but the days where you get 100£ returns are long gone.

I would be asking for receipts if I was the TO accountant! I don't know how it works but I would have thought some sort of invoice must be presented by the travelling club.

[Dave T]

36 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Prepared to pay or have no choice & why stop at foreign teams,should London,Cornwall & even the Cumbrian teams be forced to cover travel costs for the M62 mob ?

 

Any new team joining may have conditions. 

It's not the m62 mob,  as nice a soundbite as that is,  Toulouse will pay for those others you name. 

[barnyia]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

The route is a slightly different point,  and I don't disagree with that,  we'll see what comes out of the strategic review.

But as things stand,  if there is a £500k cost each year for having Toulouse in the UK structure,  then it is either paid for by the UK clubs,  or Toulouse. The alternative may be that the UK game decides there is no benefit to that half a million quid cost and says no to entry. 

As I say,  there is a reason Toulouse have paid,  and will continue to pay. 

You have to price in a coach to take the team around, which is around minimum a thousand a day. 

[binosh]

IMO it should be upto the RFL/SLE to cover the cost of flying to France or atleast cover a percentage of the cost.

If the commercial dept had anything about them they would be trying to partner up with a low cost Airline, Hotel chains or atleast the Channel Tunnel and putting together packages for teams aswell as fans. 
 

It needs to be organised much better.

[Dave T]

10 minutes ago, barnyia said:

You have to price in a coach to take the team around, which is around minimum a thousand a day. 

I think if a thousand quid is being spent per day on coaches then maybe there is some work to do on planning! 

[Dave T]

8 minutes ago, binosh said:

IMO it should be upto the RFL/SLE to cover the cost of flying to France or atleast cover a percentage of the cost.

If the commercial dept had anything about them they would be trying to partner up with a low cost Airline, Hotel chains or atleast the Channel Tunnel and putting together packages for teams aswell as fans. 
 

It needs to be organised much better.

If the RFL had to cover half a million quid travel to have Toulouse in the UK structure,  there is only one way this goes. 

[idrewthehaggis]

12 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Can you explain our ' insular thinking ' ? 

The issue here is the unfairness of it all. Not helped by certain ingrained beliefs.

To be far it is club officials, not supporters nor the club itself.

Tell me this is not insular? 

Quote

 

However, outspoken Leigh Centurions owner Derek Beaumont has revealed that it wasn’t only Huddersfield that took exception to the value of having French teams in the top flight during the meeting.

Beaumont tweeted: “Wasn’t only Huddersfield. I was vocal as always and all bar 1 in the room I was in saw no COMMERCIAL value from all those years! ”

 

seriousaboutrl.com/derek-beaumont-believes-there-is-overwhelming-support-against-catalans-dragons-and-toulouse-olympique-not-being-in-super-league-56525/

https://aumag.net/no-commercial-value-derek-beaumont-has-his-opinion-on-the-huddersfield-catalans-dispute-over-the-value-of-french-clubs/

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/steve-mcnamara-criticises-disrespectful-huddersfield-following-alleged-comments/

[Damien]

Again this falls down to what is the long term vision for SL and the game. To me there are 3 real options.

• Is it what was originally proposed for Super League, i.e to be a European Super League with 2 French clubs. This should be with the French treated equally and on much more equal terms than we see now with even simple things like websites and announcements having a French translation.
• Continue with the half baked approach where French clubs but are treated differently with obstacles put in their way
• Or just don't have any French clubs

I think the game should make a strategic decision to embrace the first option. I know others disagree. The benefits have been discussed many times.

The second option does not do anything different than what we currently see. Sticking Toulouse in the Championship at a part time level just holds back their development at best and at worst drives them back to the French league or kills them off. If Catalans had been treated like Toulouse its very likely we wouldn't have the club we have today and there may well be no French clubs at the level of Catalans and Toulouse. Super League would be poorer for that and would have even less well financed and attended clubs paying big wages. If this option happens to me IMG have failed as it is an option without strategy or direction and shows clubs still rule the roost.

The alternative, and it is one that I would hate to see, is for the French to go their own way. As things stand I think that would be disastrous for both clubs and French RL. I certainly wouldn't like it but as opposed to option 2 at least it sets a clear direction.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Damien

[Dave T]

20 minutes ago, Damien said:

Again this falls down to what is the long term vision for SL and the game. To me there are 3 real options.

• Is it what was originally proposed for Super League, i.e to be a European Super League with 2 French clubs. This should be with the French treated equally and on much more equal terms than we see now with even simple things like websites and announcements having a French translation.
• Continue with the half baked approach where French clubs but are treated differently with obstacles put in their way
• Or just don't have any French clubs

I think the game should make a strategic decision to embrace the first option. I know others disagree. The benefits have been discussed many times.

The second option does not do anything different than what we currently see. Sticking Toulouse in the Championship at a part time level just holds back their development at best and at worst drives them back to the French league or kills them off. If Catalans had been treated like Toulouse its very likely we wouldn't have the club we have today and there may well be no French clubs at the level of Catalans and Toulouse. Super League would be poorer for that and would have even less well financed and attended clubs paying big wages. If this option happens to me IMG have failed as it is an option without strategy or direction and shows clubs still rule the roost.

The alternative, and it is one that I would hate to see, is for the French to go their own way. As things stand I think that would be disastrous for both clubs and French RL. I certainly wouldn't like it but as opposed to option 2 at least it sets a clear direction.

I agree.  I'd like to see a genuine JV,  with the French federation a partner in SL.  I've long said that whilst not a direct comparison,  the Pro14 (or whatever its called now)  is a better model.  

[Harry Stottle]

12 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

European Super League 

Sits above:

British Championship and French Elite 1

Don't make part time operations work in international leagues they clearly aren't built for.

When was the last time a part time team took part in SL?

[Harry Stottle]

11 hours ago, Davo5 said:

The fact you quote soccer shows how clueless you are when it comes to sport in this country & I think you’ll find the average “Brit” does identify Wigan mainly by its famous RL club but also the football team after spending 8 seasons in the highest profile leagues in world sport & winning the FA Cup 9 yrs ago.

I won’t derail this thread anymore by trying to educate a Canadia who has no grasp of sport in this country and an obvious dislike of RL.

I would wager more people who know that Wigan has a rugby team, will not be confident off or could tell you for certain if it was League or Union.

[SydneyRoosters]

4 hours ago, barnyia said:

In elite 1 last season we played games in front of 100 people up to 5000 at the final, 

The biggest in the  regular rounds was probably at limoux with around 1500 spectators.

I watched the highlights of one of the carcasonne vs lezignan games and it looked like there was well over 1000 people there, Do you know the attendance for those games.

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

Once in SL,  I think things should be clearer,  this shouldn't be left to any kind of negotiation at all,  and whatever the terms of overseas teams entering SL are,  should be laid out clearly

Totally agree with this, and to save Toulouse any further expense or embarrassment should they be relegated this year, tell them before they set foot in the Championship in '23 and fork out for the opposition's travel what will be the arrangement should they return to SL in '24, in that will they still be expected to pay for the visiting teams travel or will they be excempt from it, BUT that is not any sort of question for IMG it is up to the SL clubs to democratically decide what their intention will be.

Then if SL decide that they still wish to have the costs covered, it is purely Toulouse's decision what their next step will be, if they decide it is best to carry on and pay then what you say by intimating such is that the numbers must stack up for them.

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, Davo5 said:

Prepared to pay or have no choice & why stop at foreign teams,should London,Cornwall & even the Cumbrian teams be forced to cover travel costs for the M62 mob ?

 

They most definitely have a choice Dav, do you by any chance know whose decision it was to make Toulouse pay this year in SL?

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, kiggy said:

Depends. Charterering, if the teams want a fast turn around is about 30k return. Scheduled is a lot cheaper but the days where you get 100£ returns are long gone.

I would be asking for receipts if I was the TO accountant! I don't know how it works but I would have thought some sort of invoice must be presented by the travelling club.

There should be a ceiling on the costs, go over it and it is down to the visiting team, I wonder how Wigan proportioned it this year when they went for a week taking in both Toulouse and Catalan?

[Adelaide Tiger]

I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the ideas put to IMG by clubs along the M62 is related to travel subsidies.

i.e. Any ‘foreign’ club more than 3 miles north or south of the M62 have to buy each player of the travelling club one corned beef sandwich and one bottle of pop.

Any ‘foreign’ club over 5 miles north or south of the M62 have to provide the aforementioned and pay for a ‘whip round’ for the bus driver. Plus forfeit all the SKY money except that to cover the sandwiches and pop.

Any ‘foreign’ club over 7 miles north or south of the M62 must forfeit all of their SKY money; play in fluffy slippers; buy every travelling player two corned beef sandwiches and two bottles of pop AND the travelling team can claim the 10p on the returned bottles; provide every visiting Chairman with a castella and a bovril; and each ‘home’ player must ride their bicycle to the home of their opponent and give them ‘a saddle’ to the ground and then take them back home.  If any visiting player is not back in time to play darts and dominoes in their local then the ‘foreign’ team is docked 10 league points per minute overdue.

Any ‘foreign’ club more than 10 miles away WILL NOT be allowed to enter any league as it would mean that visiting club players and officials would definitely not make it back in time to play darts and dominoes in their local!

[Davo5]

32 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the ideas put to IMG by clubs along the M62 is related to travel subsidies.

i.e. Any ‘foreign’ club more than 3 miles north or south of the M62 have to buy each player of the travelling club one corned beef sandwich and one bottle of pop.

Any ‘foreign’ club over 5 miles north or south of the M62 have to provide the aforementioned and pay for a ‘whip round’ for the bus driver. Plus forfeit all the SKY money except that to cover the sandwiches and pop.

Any ‘foreign’ club over 7 miles north or south of the M62 must forfeit all of their SKY money; play in fluffy slippers; buy every travelling player two corned beef sandwiches and two bottles of pop AND the travelling team can claim the 10p on the returned bottles; provide every visiting Chairman with a castella and a bovril; and each ‘home’ player must ride their bicycle to the home of their opponent and give them ‘a saddle’ to the ground and then take them back home.  If any visiting player is not back in time to play darts and dominoes in their local then the ‘foreign’ team is docked 10 league points per minute overdue.

Any ‘foreign’ club more than 10 miles away WILL NOT be allowed to enter any league as it would mean that visiting club players and officials would definitely not make it back in time to play darts and dominoes in their local!

Now don’t go giving them ideas AT

[phiggins]

2 hours ago, idrewthehaggis said:

The issue here is the unfairness of it all. Not helped by certain ingrained beliefs.

To be far it is club officials, not supporters nor the club itself.

Tell me this is not insular? 

seriousaboutrl.com/derek-beaumont-believes-there-is-overwhelming-support-against-catalans-dragons-and-toulouse-olympique-not-being-in-super-league-56525/

https://aumag.net/no-commercial-value-derek-beaumont-has-his-opinion-on-the-huddersfield-catalans-dispute-over-the-value-of-french-clubs/

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/steve-mcnamara-criticises-disrespectful-huddersfield-following-alleged-comments/

But in a way, he's right, because at the moment, we're not actually selling the sport in general to the French market. So, the sport gets extra cost, but no extra revenue. But it should be down to RFL / SL to sort that out rather than asking individual clubs go out and sell TV rights on their behalf.

Sadly, to do it properly would involve some sort of plan, with some objectives to aim for. All sadly lacking.

[idrewthehaggis]

1 hour ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Provide every visiting Chairman with a castella and a bovril.

Forum line of the day. 

[Mumby Magic]

Am I being naive. Shouldn't the RFL fund traveling?

[barnyia]

2 hours ago, SydneyRoosters said:

I watched the highlights of one of the carcasonne vs lezignan games and it looked like there was well over 1000 people there, Do you know the attendance for those games.

Not the exact figure but it would have been 1500 maximum.