Toulouse out of pocket again

[Dallas Mead]

2 hours ago, steve oates said:

Well explain it then?

Fundamentally the game is an M62 game.  Fundamentally it is a rich Northern English owners club that makes it work, backing the historic clubs accordingly.  Leigh fit that bill and have done for years.

I'd like you to sit in front of the SL bosses and make the case for Toulouse over Leigh??

Don't you think that most SL bosses will want Leigh in, and not Toulouse, what on earth would you say to change their minds??

Oh my gosh.  Peak Rugby League ladies and gentlemen.

[Fevrover]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

Sorry guy's you are going to have to live with it.

They were the rules when Toulouse got promoted so its hardly shock.

[The Future is League]

1 hour ago, David Shepherd said:

Even if the number is 0, it's equal to the number that Catalan or TOXIII bring.

A quick perusal of Leigh's attendances would suggest it's about 3,000

At least as many as Catalan or TOXIII

Between 4,000 and 6,000, of whom about 1/3 will travel to away games.

 

I personally think Super League is a better competition for having Catalan and more recently TOXIII.  But the harsh commercial reality is that 15 years on from Catalan entering the competition, we are not generating any financial return on their participation. Nor is the French national team any closer to providing England with a competitive international game.

At some point we do need to question if having French teams in the competition is the right thing to do.

 

So Leigh brought 3,000 new subscribers the last time they was in Super League or 3,000 new fans.?

Obviously there home crowd average grew because of away support

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, David Shepherd said:

Catalan manage it. 

At their great disadvantage. Take £500k off Wakey and see how they get on. 

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, sweaty craiq said:

and Leigh’s catering for away teams and officials costs £8m pa, who pays for that?

Can the Anglian Vipers come up for a friendly please? 

[Davo5]

1 hour ago, NW10LDN said:

Maybe a few clubs in Cumbria as well.

Will they have to pay for the awayteams bus though ? 2/3 hours is an awfully long way.

[sweaty craiq]

24 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Can the Anglian Vipers come up for a friendly please? 

You will need to draw us in the CC.

[sweaty craiq]

1 hour ago, David Shepherd said:

What’s Degsy serving? Wagyu filet mignon with truffles, caviar and edible gold flakes. Washed down with Dom Perignan. All served by waiters on the hourly rate that premiership footballers get?

You missed off the blue fin Tuna and mayo barms

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, David Shepherd said:

What’s Degsy serving? Wagyu filet mignon with truffles, caviar and edible gold flakes. Washed down with Dom Perignan. All served by waiters on the hourly rate that premiership footballers get?

You get a complimentary faberge egg. 

[Tubby]

6 hours ago, The Future is League said:

Certainly Toulouse has brought new fans to the game, which is something  that Leigh or Fev will not do whoever gets promoted out of the 2 of them

‘Certainly’ the people watching Toulouse are new to the game? Your insight and information gathering is very impressive. 
 

Toulouse have brought new supporters to SL, as would any new team. 

This is no more than the usual conjecture and supposition. 

[David Shepherd]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

At their great disadvantage. Take £500k off Wakey and see how they get on. 

True enough. 
 

The bottom line is that we need to start generating revenue for the competition from the French market. 
 

Our main financial backer and title sponsor are only interested in UK viewers. That being true, it’s reasonable for French teams to cover costs until we have French partners funding the competition.

[Eddie]

14 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

True enough. 
 

The bottom line is that we need to start generating revenue for the competition from the French market. 
 

Our main financial backer and title sponsor are only interested in UK viewers. That being true, it’s reasonable for French teams to cover costs until we have French partners funding the competition.

I do understand what you’re saying, but it seems from attendances at least that UK fans would just as happily watch the French teams as some heartlands teams, maybe more so. And if SL keep penalising French teams they won’t do so well and getting a tv deal will be harder.  As a Sky viewer I was looking forward to both Catalans v TO games more than most games (except probably Saints v Wigan and the Hull derby) this season, though I appreciate I may be in a minority. 

[Liverpool Rover]

4 hours ago, David Shepherd said:

Even if the number is 0, it's equal to the number that Catalan or TOXIII bring.

A quick perusal of Leigh's attendances would suggest it's about 3,000

At least as many as Catalan or TOXIII

Between 4,000 and 6,000, of whom about 1/3 will travel to away games.

 

I personally think Super League is a better competition for having Catalan and more recently TOXIII.  But the harsh commercial reality is that 15 years on from Catalan entering the competition, we are not generating any financial return on their participation. Nor is the French national team any closer to providing England with a competitive international game.

At some point we do need to question if having French teams in the competition is the right thing to do.

 

Has the game actually tried to generate any financial return? Aren’t all the broadcasts of Catalans games paid for by the club.

[Adelaide Tiger]

7 hours ago, David Shepherd said:

Not bad for a Cas lad Ian.

We've even got the perfect airline to approach, headquartered in Leeds and takes literally millions of northerners away on holiday every year. They fly to Girona, just like the majority of SL fans visiting Perpignan and they used to have a route from Manchester to Toulouse.

 

 

Ayup Dave, it’s not Yorkshire Airlines is it with Captain Boycott at the controls

With your knowledge of the travel industry why don’t you sort all this out and claim a percentage of the deal.  Sorted.

[Harry Stottle]

17 hours ago, glossop saint said:

Would you be saying the same if it wasn't Leigh? Will you be equally happy if Leigh lose against Fev in the grand final and against someone else next year? Encouraging clubs to risk their future? What was your opinion on Newcastle going full time this year and their recent decision to revert to part time? Maybe on Argyles decision to spend big on NRL players?

Sorry re the delay, back to your questions.

Will I be happy if Leigh lose out on promotion, not at all but there is nothing a given, this is sport and stranger things have happened Leigh are clear favourites but the sporting world is full of the underdog triumphing, it will be a very nervous time in the final - yes I am sticking my neck out - but Mr B has set out a plan and stuck to it, hopefully it pays off.

Encouraging club's to risk their future, who is doing that? I have said how Leigh are going about it this year buy securing player's before promotion is secured which is so different to the norm of waiting to see if they are promoted then going shopping when the shelves are almost bare, it may work or it may not, if it does and Leigh consolidate in SL will other club's try it? They only should if they can afford to do so, will Toulouse next season? don't know but one thing is certain going up with a championship team didn't work.

Newcastle going full time?  as the intention of the owner was to achieve SL status in a short number of years they had no option, not being in the heartlands they would have needed part-timers to travel as well as doing another job to supplement their income, but they didn't speculate on the right roster of players to improve in the Championship they went into half hearted, subsequently they failed to get the public interested losing most of their games, financially the inevitable would happen, a couple of weeks ago before Newcastle announced they were going part time I had a discussion on these pages with @ShropshireBulland I suggested that by the end of next season they will be taking stock of their future as a pro club, fwiw I can't see them lasting in the pro game unless the can find a way to finance a much better squad or do a Toronto and be a satellite club with a different base for training etc only going to Newcastle to play home games.

Toronto NRL player's? spend big sorry but they wasted a lot of money in my opinion for what was required on the field, Money Bill good publicity but his days of being  effective had gone when he was required to be the team leader, he went to the Rooster's and did OK but he was surrounded by very good player's there, who else was good apart from Ricky Leutele, well not Josh McCrone, Chase Stanley, Bodene Thompson, Blake Wallace now there is a club who could afford to have done things differently but chose not to, they went up to SL with the same Championship team when it was quite evident they should have been radically changing their playing roster in preparation for playing in SL.

All in my opinion of course.

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, yipyee said:

Toulouse: A major city in France, can help to increase viewers in France and pair with Catalan to get a TV deal. Increases the player pool, adds depth to the French squad, brings new sponsors to the game, owner accepts money needs to be spent and happy (well not extatic) to subsidise all the other clubs travel. Are a large club striving for a fair crack of the whip

Weren't you saying early last season that Toulouse would be averaging 10,000 crowds with the half a million strong population they have, and there would be a queue of rich sponsers clamouring to get on board, and the club would go from strength to strength and along with Catalan would be spreading the RL gospel all over France and all the kids would be drawn to the game, and it was just a formality they would be bringing a TV deal to the pot.

Basically what you spout is what you wish for, it has no substance to it whatsoever.

And when has Mr Beaumont moaned about spending money? obviously in your piece you wanted to get in a bit about the travel expenses, so mentioning spending was the way to do it.

I have nothing whatsoever against Toulouse in our system, I was looking forward to going next year - maybe I still will in the Championship - but I wish some people would be a little more realistic in their aspirations and well meaning for the club and stop putting them on a pinnicle they have yet to acheive. 

[Harry Stottle]

18 hours ago, glossop saint said:

Would you be happy if your team only played away matches next year? And with next to no away fans? Having flown to get there?

The fact is that they played less games, not that it is an advantage.

Careful Gloossop, you have not to mention away fans on these pages, but seeing you have done if Leigh go up and say you were the owner/accountant at Saints, Wigan or Wire, would you prefer your "next to no fans" of Toulouse or Leigh taking along 1,500 at an average of £30 each inc a drink or a bite to eat totalling approx £45,000 in the coffers, the answer is a no brainer considering that these very same people considers Toulouse paying for their travel cost is the right and proper way to go.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Harry Stottle

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, David Shepherd said:

Even if the number is 0, it's equal to the number that Catalan or TOXIII bring.

A quick perusal of Leigh's attendances would suggest it's about 3,000

At least as many as Catalan or TOXIII

Between 4,000 and 6,000, of whom about 1/3 will travel to away games.

 

I personally think Super League is a better competition for having Catalan and more recently TOXIII.  But the harsh commercial reality is that 15 years on from Catalan entering the competition, we are not generating any financial return on their participation. Nor is the French national team any closer to providing England with a competitive international game.

At some point we do need to question if having French teams in the competition is the right thing to do.

 

I wish there was an emoji that said "I will have to think about that one"

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, NW10LDN said:

Kick the French teams out and let the sport become a semi-professional and played only in the North. IMG should give the fans what they want good and hard.

So the French clubs are the glue that is holding the Professional Game together, you do come out with some exceptional posts, well done.

If we lost them it would not make one jot of difference to the pro game, unless you can explain to me how, I know it would upset some travel companies, hotels bars and restaurants in northern Spain and the same for buisnesses in Perpignan on match days, but apart from that zilch.

[glossop saint]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Sorry re the delay, back to your questions.

Will I be happy if Leigh lose out on promotion, not at all but there is nothing a given, this is sport and stranger things have happened Leigh are clear favourites but the sporting world is full of the underdog triumphing, it will be a very nervous time in the final - yes I am sticking my neck out - but Mr B has set out a plan and stuck to it, hopefully it pays off.

Encouraging club's to risk their future, who is doing that? I have said how Leigh are going about it this year buy securing player's before promotion is secured which is so different to the norm of waiting to see if they are promoted then going shopping when the shelves are almost bare, it may work or it may not, if it does and Leigh consolidate in SL will other club's try it? They only should if they can afford to do so, will Toulouse next season? don't know but one thing is certain going up with a championship team didn't work.

Newcastle going full time?  as the intention of the owner was to achieve SL status in a short number of years they had no option, not being in the heartlands they would have needed part-timers to travel as well as doing another job to supplement their income, but they didn't speculate on the right roster of players to improve in the Championship they went into half hearted, subsequently they failed to get the public interested losing most of their games, financially the inevitable would happen, a couple of weeks ago before Newcastle announced they were going part time I had a discussion on these pages with @ShropshireBulland I suggested that by the end of next season they will be taking stock of their future as a pro club, fwiw I can't see them lasting in the pro game unless the can find a way to finance a much better squad or do a Toronto and be a satellite club with a different base for training etc only going to Newcastle to play home games.

Toronto NRL player's? spend big sorry but they wasted a lot of money in my opinion for what was required on the field, Money Bill good publicity but his days of being  effective had gone when he was required to be the team leader, he went to the Rooster's and did OK but he was surrounded by very good player's there, who else was good apart from Ricky Leutele, well not Josh McCrone, Chase Stanley, Bodene Thompson, Blake Wallace now there is a club who could afford to have done things differently but chose not to, they went up to SL with the same Championship team when it was quite evident they should have been radically changing their playing roster in preparation for playing in SL.

All in my opinion of course.

Thanks for the reply Harry, hope you had a good evening.

I wouldn't expect you to be happy if Leigh fail to gain promotion (even more so than I am sad to see Toulouse get relegated). I hope for your sake, and Beaumonts sake (as well as I think it would be better for the sport to have Leigh in SL than Fev) that you win the final. I do feel that whoever an individual supports or would like to see in SL the current system does not help a club build sustainably. Leigh are lucky in that they have a very keen and rich fan in Beaumont but even there then there was issues a few years ago after relegation.

Binosh was saying that Toulouse should have rolled the dice earlier. That is encouraging risking their future. Given the history of boom or bust in the sport maybe not taking the decision is one of the reasons that Toulouse aren't being welcomed! It will be interesting to see how they react next season and if they do gamble in the way that Leigh have done this year. Perhaps that will be determined by who gets promoted?

Interesting thoughts on Newcastle, which I agree with a lot of. Again maybe showing how the sport forces club's to spend beyond their means to grow amd succeed (admittedly this is across the vast majority of sports).

Toronto took the same approach as Leigh have done this year. And got a bit of stick for doing so. They were forced into doing it and it didn't pay off. I don't think they had the experience and expertise that Leigh have which is a contributing factor as to why it didn't work, as well as the obvious difficulties of covid!

[glossop saint]

22 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Careful Gloossop, you have not to mention away fans on these pages, but seeing you have done if Leigh go up and say you were the owner/accountant at Saints, Wigan or Wire, would you prefer your "next to know fans" of Toulouse or Leigh taking along 1,500 at an average of £30 each inc a drink or a bite to eat totalling approx £45,000 in the coffers, the answer is a no brainer considering that these very same people considers Toulouse paying for their travel cost is the right and proper way to go.

Any excuse for an away fan argument eh Harry? 

You know full well that my point was that having no away fans there to support you puts you at a significant disadvantage. Part of the reason for a home and away season which is all good and proper. But when you don't have that reverse fixture then you don't get the advantage. 

Word twisting at its best there I'm afraid. Which to me suggests that you agree with my point that it was not an advantage to Toulouse.

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, Eddie said:

Playing all your games away in a foreign country is a massive disadvantage. 

Then they should play all their games in France Eddie, but you know what that means I presume?

How was it a disadvantage, apart from Fev they were streets ahead of any opposition they were visiting a little like Leigh this season, if Leigh played all 28 league games away with the settled squad they have now I wouldn't expect them to lose........... any, nor should Toulouse have with a better squad than all the other Championship teams and all full time player's as well.

I would wager there are those who would have been in raptures with Toulouse running up big scores hosting part timers who would be getting time of work, travelling out to France and back the same day, before back to work the next.

A massive disadvantage my backside.

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, David Shepherd said:

What’s Degsy serving? Wagyu filet mignon with truffles, caviar and edible gold flakes. Washed down with Dom Perignan. All served by waiters on the hourly rate that premiership footballers get?

You been David?

[Eddie]

9 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Then they should play all their games in France Eddie, but you know what that means I presume?

How was it a disadvantage, apart from Fev they were streets ahead of any opposition they were visiting a little like Leigh this season, if Leigh played all 28 league games away with the settled squad they have now I wouldn't expect them to lose........... any, nor should Toulouse have with a better squad than all the other Championship teams and all full time player's as well.

I would wager there are those who would have been in raptures with Toulouse running up big scores hosting part timers who would be getting time of work, travelling out to France and back the same day, before back to work the next.

A massive disadvantage my backside.

Iirc they couldn’t play in France due to Covid restrictions so had to play most of their games away in England? Unless my memory is failing me which is possible. Anyway if that is the case surely it’s a big disadvantage? 

[Harry Stottle]

15 hours ago, The Future is League said:

So Leigh brought 3,000 new subscribers the last time they was in Super League or 3,000 new fans.?

Obviously there home crowd average grew because of away support

Leigh averaged 6521 per game in '17, of which 5,500 were home fans,  Leigh bettered the attendances of Huddersfield 5826, Widnes 5767, Wakefield 5289 and Salford 4703.

Only Saints brought any Fan's worth noting about 2,500, Wigan and Warrington were miserable considering their locallity.