Rework of IRL/RLWC

[yipyee]

1 minute ago, theswanmcr said:

It was a rubbish convoluted system which is why it was scrapped - why should one of the better stronger teams have a harder route to the quarters than a lesser teams? It’s ludicrous… and also not simples!

As it stands we have a fairer system that is easy to understand. The seeding of 1 to 4 leads to potential final crunch group games like Samoa v France and Ireland v Lebanon if it goes to the form book. Everyone has a much more equal chance of making the next phase too.

Not really, if you are in a harder group you only need to win 1 game, if your in an easy group you need to win all 3.

 

[Pulga]

3 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

It's the best system when you have 16 teams that are of roughly equal quality, which clearly we don't have.

And there's a difference between having a "fair few" one-sided games and the majority of games being very one sided.

Mate, England hasn't beaten Australia in 30 years. There is NOTHING equal about the WC. 

You've missed the entire point of the WC.

 

[Pulga]

2 hours ago, Jughead said:

The Jamaican’s reactions to scoring a try at a point of a game that was gone in terms of a sporting contest is everything that is good about the international game and sport in general. Like every team that takes to the field, success is relative. For Greece, even qualifying was success after the oppression faced by the Greek government and for Jamaica, being the first to do what they’ve done and being the first to score tries on the field was success. They aren’t going to win the World Cup but success comes in many forms. Denying nations or clubs success by their own definition is not something that sits right with me and embodies everything that is anti-rugby league. 

Someone has already used the Olympics as an example. 

Should only the top 4 times in qualifying make the final of the 100m sprint?

[SydneyRoosters]

24 minutes ago, Pulga said:

Mate, England hasn't beaten Australia in 30 years. There is NOTHING equal about the WC. 

You've missed the entire point of the WC.

 

They beat them 16 years ago ?

[Madrileño]

26 minutes ago, SydneyRoosters said:

They beat them 16 years ago ?

That was Great Britain, whom we keep hearing from English people on here are not the same team as England (allegedly). 

I would agree with you however. And by the same token I would say it is the English who went down under a few years ago and got thumped 4 times in a row by Tonga, the Kiwis, and a part time Papua New Guinea. 

[Pulga]

9 hours ago, SydneyRoosters said:

They beat them 16 years ago ?

God the 99% must be in a borderline vegetative state.

[langpark]

 

I am not sure how many World Cups Ireland and Scotland have played in. But this may trump them after just two matches. 

 

 

[corkonian77]

26 minutes ago, langpark said:

 

I am not sure how many World Cups Ireland and Scotland have played in. But this may trump them after just two matches. 

 

 

Must be at least  4 or 5. 

Most of the players are of Junior  Rugby Union standard in Ireland.  That's what they play during the league  off season. A few would  be Senior  level.

The problem  is that the players they are playing  against  would  be several levels above their ability. 

Will Chambers played Heineken  cup for Munster. 

Former Professional Rugby  Union players are banned  from playing  Junior  Rugby on Health and Safety  grounds.  Sean O Brien couldn't  play  for his home club on these grounds. 

 

[bird]

There has been no World Cup until now where the draw hasn't been rigged. Up until the last Australia v England/GB was the opener to guarantee them meeting for TV. The times of the Four Team Supergroups was a farce where the weakest team was sacrificed without compensation, made the sport looked stupid. This time, there was a transparent draw with a genuine seeding system. If you don't like that, don't go.

[N2022]

30 minutes ago, bird said:

There has been no World Cup until now where the draw hasn't been rigged. Up until the last Australia v England/GB was the opener to guarantee them meeting for TV. The times of the Four Team Supergroups was a farce where the weakest team was sacrificed without compensation, made the sport looked stupid. This time, there was a transparent draw with a genuine seeding system. If you don't like that, don't go.

I get that transparency is good, seeding makes sense, but the situation is that whilst those things make a tournament comprehensible and help guard its integrity, its credibility can still be undermined by too many matches not really being in doubt after the first 15 to 20 minutes, so maybe the structure and / or number of teams does need a serious look.

Somebody pointed to RU WC also having very one-sided games, but though there were quite a few examples of this a decade or more ago - mainly NZ on the winning side and Namibia on the losing side - it's got a lot more evenly matched, and given the different scoring tariffs you aren't looking at the same numbers of tries being run in in RU now as in Aus v Sco, Sam v Gre, Irl (not even likely semi-final contenders) v Jam.  

[Tommygilf]

6 again is a huge factor in these big scores, in the NRL and Super League as well as the World Cup.

[langpark]

1 hour ago, bird said:

There has been no World Cup until now where the draw hasn't been rigged. Up until the last Australia v England/GB was the opener to guarantee them meeting for TV. The times of the Four Team Supergroups was a farce where the weakest team was sacrificed without compensation, made the sport looked stupid. This time, there was a transparent draw with a genuine seeding system. If you don't like that, don't go.

That was THE worst format. 

I think it was 2008 or 2013 where PNG was the sacrificial lamb, grouped with Aus, NZ and England. 3 would progress to the QF. Their campaign effectively over before it began. 

All this, just to appease the "we don't like blowout scores" mob. Most of which tend not to care one iota about international RL in the first place. So why people feel the need to pander to them is beyond me. 

[gingerjon]

11 hours ago, N2022 said:

I get that transparency is good, seeding makes sense, but the situation is that whilst those things make a tournament comprehensible and help guard its integrity, its credibility can still be undermined by too many matches not really being in doubt after the first 15 to 20 minutes, so maybe the structure and / or number of teams does need a serious look.

Somebody pointed to RU WC also having very one-sided games, but though there were quite a few examples of this a decade or more ago - mainly NZ on the winning side and Namibia on the losing side - it's got a lot more evenly matched, and given the different scoring tariffs you aren't looking at the same numbers of tries being run in in RU now as in Aus v Sco, Sam v Gre, Irl (not even likely semi-final contenders) v Jam.  

A key difference is that every RU World Cup qualifier gets a payment to ensure the squad can be full time in advance of the tournament - I think it's for a full year.

[rlno1]

13 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

6 again is a huge factor in these big scores, in the NRL and Super League as well as the World Cup.

Get rid of it or reduce it to 1-3 extra tackles. Why does the game have to constantly be sped up.

[fighting irish]

16 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

6 again is a huge factor in these big scores, in the NRL and Super League as well as the World Cup.

It accounted for a few scores for Tonga v Wales last night.

Having said that and putting my two penn'orth in regarding the involvement of the smaller nations, I want to say how proud I was of the performance of the Welsh team.

The passion they showed, their unwillingness to be intimidated, the fitness they exhibited, their creative use of the ball and sheer will to compete till the end, was really endearing. I'll bet the vast majority of Welsh viewers were as proud as me.

Off the back of that performance, I hope the Welsh RL issue a rallying call to all Welsh men to come and join the cause.

To get involved in the game and compete for a place in this great Welsh team.

I think every one of them, Players and Management alike, deserve a medal for the way they have conducted themselves throughout the tournament. I hope John Kear lives another 50 years and becomes Wales' Wayne Bennett. 

I'd like to take this opportunity also, to doff my cap to the terrific Jamaican and Greek teams for their achievements so far.

What great entertainment!

Let's hope there's lots more to come and some signs of real growth across the world, by the time we meet again in France. 

[Guest]

RLWC should be kept at 16 teams and no tiered structure. I would look at adding in a plate for the third placed teams. You just need to make sure the qualifying has a preference for countries which are actively developing the sport at home. The current requirements of a domestic comp with at least 4 clubs and junior sides are fine. Just enforce those rules. Africa look set to get an extra spot so either SA or Nigeria. Looking at Europe. Italy and Scotland may not be eligible but that is fine. Ireland, Wales, Serbia along with Eng and Fra are the likely contenders. Then possibly Greece or Norway. I'd rather have them in there over Italy or Scotland based on the current level of development.

[UTK]

1 hour ago, NW10LDN said:

RLWC should be kept at 16 teams and no tiered structure. I would look at adding in a plate for the third placed teams. You just need to make sure the qualifying has a preference for countries which are actively developing the sport at home. The current requirements of a domestic comp with at least 4 clubs and junior sides are fine. Just enforce those rules. Africa look set to get an extra spot so either SA or Nigeria. Looking at Europe. Italy and Scotland may not be eligible but that is fine. Ireland, Wales, Serbia along with Eng and Fra are the likely contenders. Then possibly Greece or Norway. I'd rather have them in there over Italy or Scotland based on the current level of development.

https://www.intrl.sport/news/road-to-france-rlwc2025-qualifying-process-announced/

I must admit I'm not entirely across the qualification structure but I don't think Africa  are all that likely to get another spot for 2025, as I see it they're guaranteed one spot (now Lebanon) with the next highest finisher of the MEA Cup in 2023 now heading into repechage for the final spot in the tournament.

As for Europe, they have a guarantee of 6 places with their highest possible number being 8. England and France are now the only auto-qualifiers with the rest to be made up from either the Euro Championships or repechage over the next two years as required. Comparing the 2021 Euro qualifiers process we have some differences, the top two teams in Euro A in 2018 qualified for 2021 with the rest heading into the 2019 qualifiers. The difference here with our 8 team Euro A in 2023 is the likely two highest finishers (England and France) are already auto-qualified, so perhaps the next 2 highest place will receive qualification from the 2023 Euro A with the remaining teams heading to a qualification tournament with the winner of Euro B. If this is the structure the qualification from Euro A could very well be dependent on pool draws but the safe bet would be Wales and Ireland to qualify here and take us to 4 Euro nations.

A 2024 tournament then would likely give us Italy, Scotland, Serbia, Spain + a winner or winners from Euro B (Germany, Greece, Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Ukraine). This really does put some pressure on the IRL to enforce those minimum standards as we're presented with a showdown between the likes of Scotland/Italy and those really making domestic strides in Europe. Whoever doesn't make this 6 will likely head into some form of repechage with the Cook Islands and the highest placed outside Lebanon in MEA Cup, I don't really like the odds of anyone other than the Cook Islands in repechage again so these Euro Championship decisions are really integral for the likes of Greece.

 

[hw88]

On 25/10/2022 at 12:44, fighting irish said:

It accounted for a few scores for Tonga v Wales last night.

Having said that and putting my two penn'orth in regarding the involvement of the smaller nations, I want to say how proud I was of the performance of the Welsh team.

The passion they showed, their unwillingness to be intimidated, the fitness they exhibited, their creative use of the ball and sheer will to compete till the end, was really endearing. I'll bet the vast majority of Welsh viewers were as proud as me.

Off the back of that performance, I hope the Welsh RL issue a rallying call to all Welsh men to come and join the cause.

To get involved in the game and compete for a place in this great Welsh team.

I think every one of them, Players and Management alike, deserve a medal for the way they have conducted themselves throughout the tournament. I hope John Kear lives another 50 years and becomes Wales' Wayne Bennett. 

I'd like to take this opportunity also, to doff my cap to the terrific Jamaican and Greek teams for their achievements so far.

What great entertainment!

Let's hope there's lots more to come and some signs of real growth across the world, by the time we meet again in France. 

Wales are a bit of an enigma. Sometimes they do very well - semi-finalists twice - while sometimes they do poorly. This year they have made a reasonable go of it bearing in mind the current level of talent at their disposal at the present time.

For me it should be a 12 team competition. 3 groups of 4 with the top 2 going through to the quarter-finals plus the best 2 3rd placed teams. This would keep it open to more nations than just the 'big' ones and reduce the amount of blow-out games which do nobody any good. It would also make qualification that bit more difficult and push up standards. At the end of the day there are two aims (as I see it) i) to find the world champion, ii) to encourage the growth of the game worldwide.

[N2022]

24 minutes ago, hw88 said:

Wales are a bit of an enigma. Sometimes they do very well - semi-finalists twice - while sometimes they do poorly. This year they have made a reasonable go of it bearing in mind the current level of talent at their disposal at the present time.

For me it should be a 12 team competition. 3 groups of 4 with the top 2 going through to the quarter-finals plus the best 2 3rd placed teams. This would keep it open to more nations than just the 'big' ones and reduce the amount of blow-out games which do nobody any good. It would also make qualification that bit more difficult and push up standards. At the end of the day there are two aims (as I see it) i) to find the world champion, ii) to encourage the growth of the game worldwide.

I see your point about preference for 12 over 16 - fair opinion. Growth of the game worldwide may be served better by some involvement (plate competition or similar) for teams 13-16 although I agree 80-point thrashings aren't the best way to develop these nations, so impact of full incorporation of them in main draw is perhaps mixed.

Interesting that you identify finding the champion as aim number 1. Given how rarely (and long ago if I understand correctly) it's been anyone but Australia, there's virtually no case on those grounds for more than 6 sides being there, and 4 would probably comfortably cover that aspect of it.

And that's the problem - the difference in ability levels is striking and there's more chance of a genuine shock result in football or cricket than in RL and you are left with a handful of teams with any real chance of winning the comp playing teams of a vastly inferior standard - hence unappealing mismatches.

To be honest, top 4 or 6 could have some kind of seeding comp to qualify for SF / QF while the others play something closer matched to see who joins them in those rounds.

[Welshleaguelover]

I think we'd benefit from a rugby league equivalent of the ICC Champions Trophy in cricket.

2 groups of 4, maybe 5.

Then Semi finals and final.

Not to replace the world cup, to be played between each world cup.

Obviously won't happen though. 

[Pulga]

On 25/10/2022 at 04:22, N2022 said:

Somebody pointed to RU WC also having very one-sided games, but though there were quite a few examples of this a decade or more ago - mainly NZ on the winning side and Namibia on the losing side - it's got a lot more evenly matched, and given the different scoring tariffs you aren't looking at the same numbers of tries being run in in RU now as in Aus v Sco, Sam v Gre, Irl (not even likely semi-final contenders) v Jam.  

That's not true. The All Blacks scored 16 tries against Japan (!!!) In 1995. Scotland conceded 15 against The Kangaroos.

Surely we can't be that short-sighted. Japan has the worst loss ever at a RUWC and then had 20m viewers watch them beat South Africa a few short decades later. 

Tonga has had worse defeats at RLWCs than Greece has. Would you go back in time and kill off Tonga?

Good grief. What is wrong with some fans?

[Tommygilf]

8 hours ago, Welshleaguelover said:

I think we'd benefit from a rugby league equivalent of the ICC Champions Trophy in cricket.

2 groups of 4, maybe 5.

Then Semi finals and final.

Not to replace the world cup, to be played between each world cup.

Obviously won't happen though. 

That is what the former RLIF and incidentally ICB chair tried to bring in to replace the 4 nations. Too many factors worked against him though, including Australian unwillingness to play, and inexplicably the RFL leadership's desire to have a return of GB ashes tours instead.

[Archie Gordon]

Somehow missed this thread until now.

I am a 2013/2017 format advocate.

This edition has been too processional for me.

This weekend looks especially low heart rate, except for SAM-FRA. 

[RP London]

27 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

Somehow missed this thread until now.

I am a 2013/2017 format advocate.

This edition has been too processional for me.

This weekend looks especially low heart rate, except for SAM-FRA. 

PNG v Wales could be a cracker too

[SydneyRoosters]

22 minutes ago, RP London said:

PNG v Wales could be a cracker too

Yeah really excited for that game, PNG should rest a lot of players so going to be a tight one.