5 in a row and counting: will Saints’ dominance ever end?

[Exiled Wiganer]

I was reading a few of the season previews, and checking the odds, and in pretty much every case the only way that anyone can see Saints winning 5 in a row is some combination of calamitous injuries and the effects of the WCC (though, give that’s in February, I think that’s clutching at straws). Indeed, most pundits think they are stronger than last year. I even read some previews arguing that this is the start of a new era of dominance. If last year was a foregone conclusion, this year looks very much the same.

Of course, we should all get as much as we can from hoping for the best - and I am loving Peet’s attitude and style of play - but I was wondering at what point this will ever stop. I love watching Field and French as much as the next man, but our turnover of players leaves about as we were (maybe weaker if Faz gets injured). I can’t see Wigan - or anyone else tbh - challenging for the next couple of years with what we have, and so 5 in a row could easily be 6 in a row by the time we are serious contenders. 

I remember writing something similar last year and the year before, and am tempted to save this, and simply change the 5 to a 6 this time next year…

Beyond the annoyance of local rivalries, I, like I am sure many others, are probably resigned to it by now. But is it a good thing? I seem to recall almost unanimous agreement, outside the Ancient and Loyal Borough, that Wigan’s dominance 3 decades ago was bad for the game. Does it matter, or have the clubs just accepted their place in the scheme of things? 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Exiled Wiganer

[CiderWire]

It will end on Saturday - due to the high body count after their battle with Penrith.

[FearTheVee]

7 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I was reading a few of the season previews, and checking the odds, and in pretty much every case the only way that anyone can see Saints winning 5 in a row is some combination of calamitous injuries and the effects of the WCC (though, give that’s in February, I think that’s clutching at straws). Indeed, most pundits think they are stronger than last year. I even read some previews arguing that this is the start of a new era of dominance. If last year was a foregone conclusion, this year looks very much the same.

Of course, we should all get as much as we can from hoping for the best - and I am loving Peet’s attitude and style of play - but I was wondering at what point this will ever stop. I love watching Field and French as much as the next man, but our turnover of players leaves about as we were (maybe weaker if Faz gets injured). I can’t see Wigan - or anyone else tbh - challenging for the next couple of years with what we have, and so 5 in a row could easily be 6 in a row by the time we are serious contenders. 

I remember writing something similar last year and the year before, and am tempted to save this, and simply change the 5 to a 6 this time next year…

Beyond the annoyance of local rivalries, I, like I am sure many others, are probably resigned to it by now. But is it a good thing? I seem to recall almost unanimous agreement, outside the Ancient and Loyal Borough, that Wigan’s dominance 3 decades ago was bad for the game. Does it matter, or have the clubs just accepted their place in the scheme of things? 

I think you are overstating the gap between Saints and the rest.  There are a few teams more than capable of beating Saints in the Cup or Play-offs, Wigan being one of them as they proved last year.

Last year I was convinced Salford would beat us in the play-offs and they very nearly did.

[Jughead]

I think we’ll be there or thereabouts again but that’s hardly a shocking statement. I do think we have one of the better squads in the competition that’s also blessed with depth and an active and flourishing academy to pluck from, too. 

I think we are beatable, though. Wigan’s backline is improved on 2022, though their pack is probably where it was last year, Huddersfield have a squad that, on paper at least, should be competing, though I am curious to see how Ian Watson juggles so many players and I don’t think Leeds under Smith are a flash in the pan by any means.

That’s without mentioning Hull, who I think will see a change in attitude and application under Tony Smith, KR who have recruited well under Peters, Warrington who aren’t going to finish 11th again, Salford who have a decent squad and Catalans who are tough to beat in Perpignan. 

 

[Exiled Wiganer]

32 minutes ago, FearTheVee said:

I think you are overstating the gap between Saints and the rest.  There are a few teams more than capable of beating Saints in the Cup or Play-offs, Wigan being one of them as they proved last year.

Last year I was convinced Salford would beat us in the play-offs and they very nearly did.

That’s fine. I would hardly expect you to say it was a foregone conclusion. I was wondering more whether it was (or would be) a good thing for the game. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Exiled Wiganer

[graveyard johnny]

1 hour ago, FearTheVee said:

 

Last year I was convinced Salford would beat us in the play-offs and they very nearly did.

had BC been playing they would have done

[graveyard johnny]

THIS! is Warrington's year

Edited February 16, 2023 by graveyard johnny

[Oxford]

will Saints’ dominance ever end?

Unlikely anytime soon and the probablity of continuing reasonably high.

Of course there's always the NRL signing their top players to weaken them.

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Oxford

[Exiled Wiganer]

31 minutes ago, Oxford said:

will Saints’ dominance ever end?

Unlikely anytime soon and the probablity of continuing reasonably high.

Of course there's always the NRL signing their top players to weaken them.

 

That is a possibility, but that makes all of our lives (aside from the 2 dozen UK NRL super fans) the poorer. Looking at this another way, in the 90s it was said that Wigan’s dominance, while good for us, was damaging the game. That period may well still form the views/prejudices of a generation of fans today. I don’t have a sense of whether there is the same level of annoyance/frustration in the game now - is everyone simply resigned to not winning, or like me in finding consolation in watching an entertaining team that won’t win, or is there any feeling that it’s not good for the game?

Does it affect the game’s attractiveness to neutrals, or broadcasters that we know how this story ends, or do they like the idea that someday, one day an underdog will triumph? 

I wrote a similar post last year, and there seemed to be no particular concerns. Maybe next year or the year after that will be different? 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Exiled Wiganer

[sweaty craiq]

Saints is all about wanting it more than the opposition. Get on top at the ruck and they are very beatable. Third at best this season

[Magic Superbeetle]

1 hour ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I was reading a few of the season previews, and checking the odds, and in pretty much every case the only way that anyone can see Saints winning 5 in a row is some combination of calamitous injuries and the effects of the WCC (though, give that’s in February, I think that’s clutching at straws). Indeed, most pundits think they are stronger than last year. I even read some previews arguing that this is the start of a new era of dominance. If last year was a foregone conclusion, this year looks very much the same.

Of course, we should all get as much as we can from hoping for the best - and I am loving Peet’s attitude and style of play - but I was wondering at what point this will ever stop. I love watching Field and French as much as the next man, but our turnover of players leaves about as we were (maybe weaker if Faz gets injured). I can’t see Wigan - or anyone else tbh - challenging for the next couple of years with what we have, and so 5 in a row could easily be 6 in a row by the time we are serious contenders. 

I remember writing something similar last year and the year before, and am tempted to save this, and simply change the 5 to a 6 this time next year…

Beyond the annoyance of local rivalries, I, like I am sure many others, are probably resigned to it by now. But is it a good thing? I seem to recall almost unanimous agreement, outside the Ancient and Loyal Borough, that Wigan’s dominance 3 decades ago was bad for the game. Does it matter, or have the clubs just accepted their place in the scheme of things? 

The reason Wigans dominance was bad was far more around how it was achieved, sucking in talent that probably wasn't needed for the sake of making sure opposition teams couldn't, which ultimately led to Wigan losing their spiritual home of Central Park, rather than the dominance itself. 

Saints dominance has come in an area of the salary cap challenges, and effectively been the team to better avoid players draining to the NRL than anyone else. If Saints were signing Murphy, Pryce and KPP (the latter two would definitely be luxury signings with Welsby, Dodd and Lomax in front of Pryce, and Mata'utia, Sironen and Batchelor in front of KPP) then it would be equally bad as the 80s Wigan dominance. 

[Eddie]

2/1 is crazy odds, I’ve lumped on. That said in answer to the OP no I don’t think it’s good for the game, and I say that as a Saints fan. 

[GeordieSaint]

I don’t think we’ll win it this year. I think we are lacking a bit of pace in the backs and I think the pack is a bit old… we’ll see. 

[Wigan Riversider]

2 hours ago, Magic Superbeetle said:

The reason Wigans dominance was bad was far more around how it was achieved, sucking in talent that probably wasn't needed for the sake of making sure opposition teams couldn't, which ultimately led to Wigan losing their spiritual home of Central Park, rather than the dominance itself. 

Saints dominance has come in an area of the salary cap challenges, and effectively been the team to better avoid players draining to the NRL than anyone else. If Saints were signing Murphy, Pryce and KPP (the latter two would definitely be luxury signings with Welsby, Dodd and Lomax in front of Pryce, and Mata'utia, Sironen and Batchelor in front of KPP) then it would be equally bad as the 80s Wigan dominance. 

There was nothing bad about Wigan's era of dominance and in particular how it was achieved. It was a marvelous era which is now ancient history.

Saints' current era of dominance should be savoured as they're a fine team.

[bobbruce]

41 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

I don’t think we’ll win it this year. I think we are lacking a bit of pace in the backs and I think the pack is a bit old… we’ll see. 

We will be there or there abouts I just don’t think in a salary capped sport it’s possible to keep doing it. I actually think when we look back it’s pretty amazing they’ve won 4 with all the things that can and have gone wrong. On top of that the big target on your heads just gets bigger and bigger each year. 

[Eddie]

24 minutes ago, Wigan Riversider said:

There was nothing bad about Wigan's era of dominance and in particular how it was achieved. It was a marvelous era which is now ancient history.

Saints' current era of dominance should be savoured as they're a fine team.

It might have been great for you, and fair enough, but for everyone else watching them win 7 cup finals in a row was anything but. 

[FearTheVee]

4 hours ago, graveyard johnny said:

had BC been playing they would have done

True, particularly given saints weren’t missing any players.

[Wigan Riversider]

23 minutes ago, Eddie said:

It might have been great for you, and fair enough, but for everyone else watching them win 7 cup finals in a row was anything but. 

I see Saints winning a similar number of Grand Finals on the bounce as Wigan did in their heyday and that's the sign of a champion team. Wigan had a great era and now it's the time for Saints to savour similar.

The era post M Lindsay at Wigan was beyond turbulent, but that's another story.

 

[Exiled Wiganer]

42 minutes ago, Eddie said:

It might have been great for you, and fair enough, but for everyone else watching them win 7 cup finals in a row was anything but. 

So, at what point does Saints winning every year become anything but great for non Saints people?

This year looks a near certainty, so that’s 5. Would 6 be not great for everyone? 7, 8?

With the best will in the world there is no way Wigan’s pack is good enough for us to win this year, and I see no one else that has even remotely the same level of all round strength. There was an article in League Express before Saints won their 3rd pointing out that they had the best board, the best recruitment, and the best retention, plus the know how that came from winning. It was true then and it’s even more true now. Saints fans may think it, but certainly on here are unlikely to say it.

 

[Eddie]

33 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

So, at what point does Saints winning every year become anything but great for non Saints people?

This year looks a near certainty, so that’s 5. Would 6 be not great for everyone? 7, 8?

With the best will in the world there is no way Wigan’s pack is good enough for us to win this year, and I see no one else that has even remotely the same level of all round strength. There was an article in League Express before Saints won their 3rd pointing out that they had the best board, the best recruitment, and the best retention, plus the know how that came from winning. It was true then and it’s even more true now. Saints fans may think it, but certainly on here are unlikely to say it.

 

It’s already anything but great for everyone else, it’s boring, like Celtic winning the SPL every year. There are too few teams in SL and realistically only 5 who’ll have any chance of winning it any time soon; the game itself is marvellous but the title races are quite dull. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Eddie

[FearTheVee]

33 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

So, at what point does Saints winning every year become anything but great for non Saints people?

This year looks a near certainty, so that’s 5. Would 6 be not great for everyone? 7, 8?

With the best will in the world there is no way Wigan’s pack is good enough for us to win this year, and I see no one else that has even remotely the same level of all round strength. There was an article in League Express before Saints won their 3rd pointing out that they had the best board, the best recruitment, and the best retention, plus the know how that came from winning. It was true then and it’s even more true now. Saints fans may think it, but certainly on here are unlikely to say it.

 

You’re investing a lot into this certain champions narrative.  What is it you’re looking for people to say?

Whichever way you dress it up, it’s not the same as Wigan’s era of dominance to anybody with eyes or a semblance of a grasp on context.

[EagleEyePie]

33 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

So, at what point does Saints winning every year become anything but great for non Saints people?

This year looks a near certainty, so that’s 5. Would 6 be not great for everyone? 7, 8?

With the best will in the world there is no way Wigan’s pack is good enough for us to win this year, and I see no one else that has even remotely the same level of all round strength. There was an article in League Express before Saints won their 3rd pointing out that they had the best board, the best recruitment, and the best retention, plus the know how that came from winning. It was true then and it’s even more true now. Saints fans may think it, but certainly on here are unlikely to say it.

 

It's certainly hard to see anyone really threatening Saints unless they have an absolutely horrendous year with injuries. It's difficult to maintain success in a sport with a salary cap given most players value will rise with good form and being part of a successful team. Saints have managed to retain most of their best players, move players on and sign the right players whilst also having the strongest side. It's been difficult for teams to close the gap because few teams have been able to match Saints in those aspects. There will always be a nearest challenger but that team tends to be different each year because the teams below haven't been able to achieve that same consistency with recruitment and retention.

I also agree completely with the assessment of Wigan. Yes we've strengthened our centres massively this year but it wasn't our centres that stopped us reaching the Grand Final it was our pack. Cooper has been quality but that's a shrewd signing rather than a major signing. He's not as good as he used to be but is the right sort of prop. After that though it's the youngsters in Havard and Byrne who haven't yet shown ability to be a top 5 SL prop which is where we'd need them to be. Our recent signings of Ellis and Mago have ultimately been failures, whereas Paasi was probably better than Walmsley for Saints last year. There's the difference. Saints signed a quality prop, Wigan signed two duds for a pack that's already weaker than theirs. We're now weaker in the back row too. It ain't happening for us this year unless players like Havard, Byrne and KPP start to hit their peak.

Warrington look to have recruited well and will be far, far better than last year which was just an anomaly. I reckon Wire will finish top given they have a real point to prove but Saints will be stronger when it matters. Wire definitely the strongest challengers on paper. Huddersfield have recruited well and it might be their time to push on and there's often a less fancied team that performs well, but ultimately it just looks like picking who will be this years runner up because there's no real weakness shown from Saints yet to suggest their dominance will end any time soon.

[Exiled Wiganer]

1 hour ago, FearTheVee said:

You’re investing a lot into this certain champions narrative.  What is it you’re looking for people to say?

Whichever way you dress it up, it’s not the same as Wigan’s era of dominance to anybody with eyes or a semblance of a grasp on context.

I certainly have no idea what you mean by the word “investing”. I think you mangled the end of your second sentence, but I assume you are saying it’s obviously different. Is that because 4 in a row isn’t enough? In which case, what would be enough? Because 5 is very likely, and given the ages of the squads and the state of every other club, 6 looks more likely than not. So on that measure, it’s just a matter of time. Or was Wigan’s dominance more annoying simply because it was Wigan? 

My starting point this year, as it was last year, is that Saints are certain to win, absent calamitous injuries. It was true last year, and will be the case this year, and probably next year. If you think it’s too early to assume that, I am happy enough to revisit this next year, and simply change 5 to 6 (this is itself a rehash of a post from last year; I simply changed the numbers).

At its heart, I was musing on whether it matters/is boring/causes resentment. As far as Wigan are concerned, I cannot see how that squad can be champions (this year, or next, looking at the contract lengths of our team), but that’s not to say I hesitated before buying a season ticket. In particular, if he stays fit, I will enjoy watching Field week after week. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Exiled Wiganer

[bobbruce]

1 minute ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I certainly have no idea what you mean by the word “investing”. I think you mangled the end of your second sentence, but I assume you are saying it’s obviously different. Is that because 4 in a row isn’t enough? In which case, what would be enough? Because 5 is very likely, and given the ages and the state of every other club, 6 looks more likely than not. Or was Wigan’s dominance more annoying simply because it was Wigan? Tbh, I am more interested in “neutral” observers’ view. It would be odd of you didn’t enjoy an era of complete dominance. 

My starting point this year, as it was last year, is that Saints are certain to win, absent calamitous injuries. It was true last year, and will be the case this year. If it’s too early to assume that, I am happy enough to revisit this next year, and simply change 5 to 6 (this is itself a rehash of a post from last year, where I simply changed the numbers).

At its heart, I was musing on whether it matters/is boring/causes resentment. As far as Wigan are concerned, I cannot see how that squad can be champions (this year, or next, looking at the contract lengths of our team), but that’s not to say I hesitated before buying a season ticket. In particular, if he stays fit, I will enjoy watching Field week after week. 

The difference between this Saints team and that great Wigan team is Wigan clearly had the best squad and always had the two or three best players in the league. With this Saints team most opposition fans can’t wait to tell you how rubbish the players are they certainly haven’t got a star studded squad. Out of interest how many saints players would you swap the opposite number at Wigan for. Wigan are obviously weak in the pack but have the best backs in the league for me.
 

Saints 

1/ Welsby

2/ Makinson

3/ Hopoate

4/ Percival

5/ Benison

6/ Lomax

7/ Dodd

8/ Walmsley 

9/ Roby

10/ Lees

11/ Matautia 

12/ Batchelor

13/ Knowles

wigan 

1/ Field

2/French

3/King

4:Wardle

5/Marshal

6/Cust

7/Smith

8/Singleton 

9/Powell

10/Bryne

11/Isa

12/Farrell

13/Smithies

 

[jacksy]

Imo

Annoying as it was.Wigans dominance was much more entertaining. Great Rugby League.