Featherstone - Boom or Bust by the looks of it

[steve oates]

19 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

If Catalans had been forced to run on the Toulouse model, they'd have "failed" too.  we gave UTC 3 years security from relegation, and didn't force them to pay for their opponents travel costs, and look what we've got now as a result! A cup finalist, a regular play off contender, far more French players both in the elite comp and in their pathways, probably the largest revenue generating club in the whole league (the biggest corporate revenues for sure), and a regular average attendance greater than most English Super League sides. It's a glorious achievement.  We have a case study of success. But instead of running the same playbook again we instead set hurdles up in front of Toulouse, and then you and others get to call them a failure. Only the fans of this sport could be like this.  

 

I have said before and I agree with you Les Catalans are a tremendous club and an asset to Superleague. I do not however see how their success guarantees the same success to Toulouse. There is no similarity between Catalans and Toulouse. In Toulouse 120 miles from Perpignan  the Union club is king, and there is an often quoted idea, that a lot of Toulouse residents don't even know there is an RL team in the city. Toulouse also have a big soccer club in the City.  It's not really Rugby League country. Catalans are a big club, are well supported (doubts exist about TO's declared attendances) and funded. Toulouse are in stark contrast to Les Cats who develop quality French players and more than hold their own against soccer and RU. 

 

The addition of Toulouse in the game here did nowt to encourage a French TV deal. Which English club who does have SKY subscribers  do you want to drop from Superleague for TO? We have two Hull clubs, so I assume FC could perhaps make way and drop down a league??  In the first instance you over do it as regards how good a club TO are, you then  leave out they won't attract SKY TV viewers,  and you forget with our own receding TV deals there is hardly room for Les Cats let alone TO. 

[Griff]

7 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

I’m forgetting your penchant for pedantry. 

You'll be telling us next that there were two £51k repayments, one in the 2020 accounts and another in 2021.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

I think most proponents of that suggestion in France would support it being implemented for new teams in England, and only don't repeat that to appease the "p/r or we riot" brigade?

I did say that it not been suggested for any team in England since Catalan were granted the 3 year exemption from relegation 16 years ago, do you consider it should only be for new teams and considering it is for exemption from relegation from SL should "new teams" be fast tracked into SL?

But in reality we are talking about Toulouse being locked into aren't we? but as a club Toulouse or not a new club originated in 1937 making them 86 years old, and they played in the RFL's Championship in '09, '10 and '11 before resigning and returning to the FFR then coming back in 2016 for another go, so are they deserving of preferential treatment.

I am not in anyway whatsoever against Toulouse Olympic but I am against any team being awarded anymore than other.

[steve oates]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

But in reality we are talking about Toulouse being locked into aren't we? but as a club Toulouse...........

I am not in anyway whatsoever against Toulouse Olympic but I am against any team being awarded anymore than other.

No it's a Featherstone Rovers thread, But do list what TO will give us as opposed to Featherstone Rovers, and then what Villeneuve offer us playing in SL rather that Leigh

[Tommygilf]

25 minutes ago, Niels said:

I think most rl fans are in favour or promotion and relegation.

 

 

That's a different question

[Guest]

3 hours ago, steve oates said:

 

I have said before and I agree with you Les Catalans are a tremendous club and an asset to Superleague. I do not however see how their success guarantees the same success to Toulouse. There is no similarity between Catalans and Toulouse. In Toulouse 120 miles from Perpignan  the Union club is king, and there is an often quoted idea, that a lot of Toulouse residents don't even know there is an RL team in the city. Toulouse also have a big soccer club in the City.  It's not really Rugby League country. Catalans are a big club, are well supported (doubts exist about TO's declared attendances) and funded. Toulouse are in stark contrast to Les Cats who develop quality French players and more than hold their own against soccer and RU. 

 

The addition of Toulouse in the game here did nowt to encourage a French TV deal. Which English club who does have SKY subscribers  do you want to drop from Superleague for TO? We have two Hull clubs, so I assume FC could perhaps make way and drop down a league??  In the first instance you over do it as regards how good a club TO are, you then  leave out they won't attract SKY TV viewers,  and you forget with our own receding TV deals there is hardly room for Les Cats let alone TO. 

Toulouse were founded in 1937 and survived despite everything which has happened to rugby league in France.  Funny how you never doubt the attendances of English clubs. I detect a bit of bias here with a bit of chip on shoulder mixed in. Toulouse have said they want to focus on developing their own youth. It doesn't happen overnight and English clubs are in a much stronger position. People like you would see rugby league return to being amatuer sport in Europe.

[Niels]

36 minutes ago, NW10LDN said:

Toulouse were founded in 1937 and survived despite everything which has happened to rugby league in France.  Funny how you never doubt the attendances of English clubs. I detect a bit of bias here with a bit of chip on shoulder mixed in. Toulouse have said they want to focus on developing their own youth. It doesn't happen overnight and English clubs are in a much stronger position. People like you would see rugby league return to being amatuer sport in Europe.

In fairness he did say he really likes Catalans.

 

[Griff]

51 minutes ago, NW10LDN said:

 Funny how you never doubt the attendances of English clubs.

To be fair, casting doubt on attendances happens quite a lot.

[LeeF]

59 minutes ago, Griff said:

To be fair, casting doubt on attendances happens quite a lot.

Especially for clubs that posters don’t like or perceive as preventing theirs from taking their rightful place

Edited March 1, 2023 by LeeF

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

9 hours ago, steve oates said:

 

I have said before and I agree with you Les Catalans are a tremendous club and an asset to Superleague. I do not however see how their success guarantees the same success to Toulouse. There is no similarity between Catalans and Toulouse. In Toulouse 120 miles from Perpignan  the Union club is king, and there is an often quoted idea, that a lot of Toulouse residents don't even know there is an RL team in the city. Toulouse also have a big soccer club in the City.  It's not really Rugby League country. Catalans are a big club, are well supported (doubts exist about TO's declared attendances) and funded. Toulouse are in stark contrast to Les Cats who develop quality French players and more than hold their own against soccer and RU. 

 

The addition of Toulouse in the game here did nowt to encourage a French TV deal. Which English club who does have SKY subscribers  do you want to drop from Superleague for TO? We have two Hull clubs, so I assume FC could perhaps make way and drop down a league??  In the first instance you over do it as regards how good a club TO are, you then  leave out they won't attract SKY TV viewers,  and you forget with our own receding TV deals there is hardly room for Les Cats let alone TO. 

When Catalans entered Super League, USAP were just as strong in French RU as Stade Toulousaine. It’s the same. 

I’ll say it again, Toulouse Olympique are far, far stronger today than Catalans were when they joined. Indeed TOXIII were probably stronger than UTC were back then too, and many of us were surprised Perpignan got the nod ahead of them. Their market potential is also much more attractive than Perpignan, which is a relatively poor, small city.

The fact is we gave Les Cats a 3 year period in which to establish themselves, and didn’t take £750k per year off them to subsidise their opponents travel. 15 years later we have a successful club, by every metric. And yet you still choose to ignore the lessons from that example, because it doesn’t fit your pre-conceived worldview.

Plenty of people like you on this forum and others objected to Catalans back then too. And did so for many years. The “local sport for local people” gang were demonstrably wrong then, and are still wrong now. 

 

[Niels]

27 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

When Catalans entered Super League, USAP were just as strong in French RU as Stade Toulousaine. It’s the same. 

I’ll say it again, Toulouse Olympique are far, far stronger today than Catalans were when they joined. Indeed TOXIII were probably stronger than UTC were back then too, and many of us were surprised Perpignan got the nod ahead of them. Their market potential is also much more attractive than Perpignan, which is a relatively poor, small city.

The fact is we gave Les Cats a 3 year period in which to establish themselves, and didn’t take £750k per year off them to subsidise their opponents travel. 15 years later we have a successful club, by every metric. And yet you still choose to ignore the lessons from that example, because it doesn’t fit your pre-conceived worldview.

Plenty of people like you on this forum and others objected to Catalans back then too. And did so for many years. The “local sport for local people” gang were demonstrably wrong then, and are still wrong now. 

 

Interestingly Toulouse and Perpignan met in the 2003 Heineken cup Final in Dublin.

Toulouse won, one of 5 successes, whereas it was Perpignan's only final. 

 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

3 minutes ago, Niels said:

Interestingly Toulouse and Perpignan met in the 2003 Heineken cup Final in Dublin.

Toulouse won, one of 5 successes, whereas it was Perpignan's only final. 

 

You're splitting hairs, USAP were in a Heineken Cup Final for goodness sake. I went to a USAP game in Perpignan in 2005. Their crowd was 10 times that of UTC, the stadium itself miles better. They had a club shop in the centre of town, kit made my Nike, and more corporate sponsors than you could shake a stick at. It was night and day to compare Union with League in Perpignan back then. The idea that Catalans didn't have to fight against established competition like Toulouse do is a nonsense, your own anecdote proves it. 

[Niels]

2 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

You're splitting hairs, USAP were in a Heineken Cup Final for goodness sake. I went to a USAP game in Perpignan in 2005. Their crowd was 10 times that of UTC, the stadium itself miles better. They had a club shop in the centre of town, kit made my Nike, and more corporate sponsors than you could shake a stick at. It was night and day to compare Union with League in Perpignan back then. The idea that Catalans didn't have to fight against established competition like Toulouse do is a nonsense, your own anecdote proves it. 

I hadn't made any point.

Yes I agree both are competing against clubs with more tradition and success in the same city, just like your own club

 

[Madrileño]

3 hours ago, Niels said:

Interestingly Toulouse and Perpignan met in the 2003 Heineken cup Final in Dublin.

 

It's not that interesting. 

[Snowys Backside]

Hang in their Fev. With the squad they have got, they should be fine.

 

They need to be prepared to make a loss this year for sure, but if the gamble pays off, Im sure it will be worth it (unless they cannot consolidate and grow their team with further investment).

I'd promote 2 next year anyway.

[Griff]

2 hours ago, Snowys Backside said:

Hang in their Fev. With the squad they have got, they should be fine.

 

They need to be prepared to make a loss this year for sure, but if the gamble pays off, Im sure it will be worth it (unless they cannot consolidate and grow their team with further investment).

I'd promote 2 next year anyway.

What about the year after?

[GUBRATS]

29 minutes ago, Griff said:

What about the year after?

Somebody's else's turn 

[nec]

Half a million people, a hugely successful hub for aerospace, a second major French city in super league, increased opportunities for young French players.

Or

2 small towns nobody outside of the m62 corridor could place on a map.

Only in rugby league could this debate happen. Toulouse are FAR more valuable to the sport, we need them to succeed along with London, Newcastle, Midlands, North Wales and Cornwall. Mortgaging Featherstone or Leigh's futures on promotion is more of the same drivel that has held us back for 120 years

[Snowys Backside]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

What about the year after?

If they would have any sense, a 14 team SL with no relegation. 

[Griff]

9 minutes ago, Snowys Backside said:

If they would have any sense, a 14 team SL with no relegation. 

Interesting.

[Harry Stottle]

51 minutes ago, Snowys Backside said:

If they would have any sense, a 14 team SL with no relegation. 

I take it then you were quite happy going to the LSV in the years when in the SL closed shop era Leigh were playing in front of very mediocre attendances because the Championship was a dead end street, or were you one of those who stayed away?

Anyone with any sense can see how the Championship is much improved since P&R was reinstated in '15, scrapping it would have dire consequences for the game.

[Monkeymagic22]

So long as relegated clubs get a decent parachute payment, I can’t see the issue with promotion/relegation. I’d probably also consider a one year exemption for promoted clubs perhaps, just to iron out the inherent disadvantage they face in the first season.

No promotion/ relegation leads to many games in SL without any consequence, plus kills a lot of interest in the Championship.

we tried franchising before, and it just didn’t work, and I’m failing to see what’s different now.

 

[Monkeymagic22]

2 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Also Tv broadcasters want p and r because it means that the games have value. BT have been furious with Union and its only the takeover of BT sport  that is stopping them slashing the deal. 

The problem with that is for league the only serious growth will come from internationals that have nothing to do with begging Australia. So we need French full time players to create those internationals vs England. 

The solution is lock the French teams in and let the rest of us get on with p and r. Why can’t it stay the same? Because our tv deal got slashed the demo of the fanbase is not friendly to advertisers and internationals consistently bring in much larger casual viewers with higher b,s and a viewers. 

 

 

I think that the French Clubs should get fair money including parachute payments. Also Toulouse shouldn’t pay transport costs for SL clubs. 

[Barley Mow]

1 hour ago, ShropshireBull said:

But then they have zero incentive to play French players to create meaningful international games for England where any growth is.  I think we just have to bite the bullet and treat them different because they are different. 

Fev will be fine. They have some weeks off home fixtures and a strong chance of being in final 4 to get a challenge cup draw. If they need to cut their cloth that is no bad thing for the league 

In general I'm in the P&R camp, but I'd prefer no P&R to treating clubs in the same competition differently.

If it has different rules or arrangements for different teams it stops being fair, competitive sport. Everyone has to play to the same rules.

How Toronto, Leigh and Toulouse were treated by SL, disadvantaging them with funding and paying for transport over the last few years was shameful. I see it the same with giving teams an advantage based on location as well.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, ShropshireBull said:

The solution is lock the French teams in and let the rest of us get on with p and r.

Codswallop.