IMG Grading Unveiled

[Chrispmartha]

4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

I get it fine , as did all the other Championship club fans , unlike the SL fans who's clubs were that poor they ended up in them 

Unfortunately for you the clubs decided otherwise.

It detracted from the pinnacle of the sport

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Maybe. Maybe not. I think a 2nd team in Hull would always have some commercial attraction to the league if the bid was well organised. It's why Dolphins are now in the NRL. But who knows.

But that doesn't matter because the sport means more to me than my club. I had a Broncos season ticket when I lived in London. I was a Sea Eagles member when I lived in Sydney. I went to UTCs first game after they merged and applied to join Super League. It's the sport I love, and I want to see thrive. 

Sometimes you look at an issue with a wider lense than "what does it mean for my own club?", or "will it make my last 2 games of the season more exciting because I like relegation tension?". I think a closed, invitation league is best for rugby league development. It works well for challenger sports elsewhere.

Even if that didn't suit my own team's short-term interests. It seems plenty of others think that too. 

No maybe at all , not a cat in hell's chance 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

No maybe at all , not a cat in hell's chance 

As I've said, I can see beyond that, so some random, odd person on an internet forum's unqualified opinion about it is about as relevant to me as "what's Sam Burgess' favourite cheese?"

[Harry Stottle]

2 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Maybe. Maybe not. I think a 2nd team in Hull would always have some commercial attraction to the league if the bid was well organised. It's why Dolphins are now in the NRL. But who knows.

But that doesn't matter because the sport means more to me than my club. I had a Broncos season ticket when I lived in London. I was a Sea Eagles member when I lived in Sydney. I went to UTCs first game after they merged and applied to join Super League. It's the sport I love, and I want to see thrive. 

Sometimes you look at an issue with a wider lense than "what does it mean for my own club?", or "will it make my last 2 games of the season more exciting because I like relegation tension?". I think a closed, invitation league is best for rugby league development. It works well for challenger sports elsewhere.

Even if that didn't suit my own team's short-term interests. It seems plenty of others think that too. 

I don't wish to get into a discussion with you on this as we have done that to death, but I will never ever agree with your "closed invitation league" that in my opinion is alienating to many clubs in traditional places that produce lots of our players that come through the ranks, and no matter how small you believe that club to be it is the focal point of the game in that town, in my opinion your "closed shop" will turn fans away and the community clubs will suffer as a consequence.

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

As I've said, I can see beyond that, so some random, odd person on an internet forum's unqualified opinion about it is about as relevant to me as "what's Sam Burgess' favourite cheese?"

And your opinion is sacrosanct and totally qualified?

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

And your opinion is sacrosanct and totally qualified?

Nope. Only @GUBRATS is sad enough to think his opinion on my club has unique merit, or was even invited. That's not my problem, he's just on a wind-up.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

11 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I don't wish to get into a discussion with you on this as we have done that to death, but I will never ever agree with your "closed invitation league" that in my opinion is alienating to many clubs in traditional places that produce lots of our players that come through the ranks, and no matter how small you believe that club to be it is the focal point of the game in that town, in my opinion your "closed shop" will turn fans away and the community clubs will suffer as a consequence.

Cool. We're both entitled to hold those different views, no issue with it. I'll continue to argue the merits of mine within the relevant topic on a forum designed for that debate, but like you say no need to chase each other around in circles on it directly.

[GUBRATS]

14 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

And your opinion is sacrosanct and totally qualified?

Harry we know it is , he's travelled the world and works in marketing , he knows EVERYTHING

[GUBRATS]

8 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Nope. Only @GUBRATS is sad enough to think his opinion on my club has unique merit, or was even invited. That's not my problem, he's just on a wind-up.

Before getting into SL you were a tin pot club in a sheeeeite ground , with many obnoxious fans , much like Leigh , no way on Earth would you have got a ' Licence/Franchise ' , you can pretend all you like , there's a reason you left Hull 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

4 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Before getting into SL you were a tin pot club in a sheeeeite ground , with many obnoxious fans , much like Leigh , no way on Earth would you have got a ' Licence/Franchise ' , you can pretend all you like , there's a reason you left Hull 

Yawn.

You really need to get out more. 

[Sports Prophet]

On 09/03/2023 at 22:18, DI Keith Fowler said:

Unless I've missed it nothing here says player development, academies etc?

I would love to see this removed from the clubs altogether. Owned and managed by the RFL is the best model in my opinion. Leave the clubs to focus on the top end of the sport. Allow the RFL to manage pathway opportunities for young players and coaches.

[gingerjon]

6 hours ago, Chrispmartha said:

Unfortunately for you the clubs decided otherwise.

It detracted from the pinnacle of the sport

It was the only positive of a whole game solution that livened up one section of one division of one part of the game for a few weeks.

As the rest of that particular whole game solution was woeful it had to go.

Oddly, some of our more committed whole-game-solution-finders didn't notice the bits that didn't work and never mention them because they didn't directly affect their club.

[glossop saint]

19 hours ago, Archie Gordon said:

I think this is a good point.

If Leigh (2022) score very differently to Leigh (2023) on these criteria, then the criteria aren't much use.

I've read through 20 of 27 pages but more pages are being added before I can finish it so I'll just quote this before I get to the end and forget about it.

This is a fantastic point. Yes there should be changes (hopefully improvement) year on year but how much difference is there between Leigh of last year and this year that isn't due to them being in SL? The grading should reflect that otherwise it is almost impossible for clubs to move unless catastrophe strikes with a SL club. Similarly what is difference in score for Toulouse? And in comparison, what about Featherstone given they haven't had a league change?

Also to add I am generally hugely in favour of this and generally like the information within the document. There should be some form of weighting between clubs in different leagues.

[Harry Stottle]

29 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It was the only positive of a whole game solution that livened up one section of one division of one part of the game for a few weeks.

As the rest of that particular whole game solution was woeful it had to go.

Oddly, some of our more committed whole-game-solution-finders didn't notice the bits that didn't work and never mention them because they didn't directly affect their club.

If I am one of the 'commited' you refer to then I stand guilty as charged. Can you envisage the reason why I have been involved in this sport for 60 years I played, coached, was in club administration all in the community game, but always there as been my passion for my home town professional club, the town I was born in and still live there.

That being the case the solution you refer to that livened up the game for a few weeks I found was most welcome and exciting to be a part off, I loved it to be playing against and test yourself with other teams we would not useually play against I found it to be exhilarating.

Now I don't know with you living in relative isolation away from the sport that you can feel that passion for any club, I actually feel sorry for you if that is the case because you exhibit and portray a great depth of feeling for the sport, but please do not knock us that centre our affection and dedication to one club.

You are correct I was so caught up in the involvement and participation of the M8's that what was happening elsewhere at the same time i.e. the battle for Old Trafford and the GF was totally secondary to me, I have followed this team through a lot of very very lean times and a few good ones, and they will always be at the centre of my attention in the professional game, and there are thousands like me scattered around the sport.

But do not ever accuse me of not having a deep feeling for the game as a whole, I find those who wish for a closed shop top division scenario absolutely abhorrent, they know full well, the consequences that will bring with reduced funding and probably none at all to follow for the lower leagues which will result in closures, and what ever happened to the "Big Rugby League Family" in every family there are those who do good who look after the ones not so fortunate, and I frown when I hear fans of SL clubs saying the TV money should be ours we have earned it "bhugger" the rest, I would share the funding out much more evenly than it is today.

And the whole of the game includes the lower divisions and the community side of the game of which I am not active any more except for just spectating but I will always take in at least one game each weekend and assist were I can, this part of the sport is as essential as the top of the pyramid, there are many who write on these pages who will have access to a local community club but in all probability never venture anywhere near, but tell everyone they are a great fan of the game.

I could go on but I won't and I can't offer a whole-game-solution as you put it, can anyone? And in that I include IMG I, I can forsee that whatever they bring to the table there will be casualties and we will lose clubs not immediately but it will come, if that is a "whole game solution" then so be it. 

[Harry Stottle]

9 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

The grading should reflect that otherwise it is almost impossible for clubs to move unless catastrophe strikes with a SL club.

Can you be more explicit with this sentance please Glossop.

[gingerjon]

48 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

If I am one of the 'commited' you refer to then I stand guilty as charged. Can you envisage the reason why I have been involved in this sport for 60 years I played, coached, was in club administration all in the community game, but always there as been my passion for my home town professional club, the town I was born in and still live there.

That being the case the solution you refer to that livened up the game for a few weeks I found was most welcome and exciting to be a part off, I loved it to be playing against and test yourself with other teams we would not useually play against I found it to be exhilarating.

Now I don't know with you living in relative isolation away from the sport that you can feel that passion for any club, I actually feel sorry for you if that is the case because you exhibit and portray a great depth of feeling for the sport, but please do not knock us that centre our affection and dedication to one club.

You are correct I was so caught up in the involvement and participation of the M8's that what was happening elsewhere at the same time i.e. the battle for Old Trafford and the GF was totally secondary to me, I have followed this team through a lot of very very lean times and a few good ones, and they will always be at the centre of my attention in the professional game, and there are thousands like me scattered around the sport.

But do not ever accuse me of not having a deep feeling for the game as a whole, I find those who wish for a closed shop top division scenario absolutely abhorrent, they know full well, the consequences that will bring with reduced funding and probably none at all to follow for the lower leagues which will result in closures, and what ever happened to the "Big Rugby League Family" in every family there are those who do good who look after the ones not so fortunate, and I frown when I hear fans of SL clubs saying the TV money should be ours we have earned it "bhugger" the rest, I would share the funding out much more evenly than it is today.

And the whole of the game includes the lower divisions and the community side of the game of which I am not active any more except for just spectating but I will always take in at least one game each weekend and assist were I can, this part of the sport is as essential as the top of the pyramid, there are many who write on these pages who will have access to a local community club but in all probability never venture anywhere near, but tell everyone they are a great fan of the game.

I could go on but I won't and I can't offer a whole-game-solution as you put it, can anyone? And in that I include IMG I, I can forsee that whatever they bring to the table there will be casualties and we will lose clubs not immediately but it will come, if that is a "whole game solution" then so be it. 

Obviously it was a slight dig at you and a few others - only a slight one - so thanks for responding so fairly.

What I will say is what I have said all along: I don't believe the league structure, any league structure, will, inofitself, fix any issues the game faces. The only caveat to that is that I do think a proper pyramid system starting with the professional game at the top and ending with community games on park pitches would be incredibly helpful.

What I mostly like about what is being proposed here is that it is based on working with what is actually real. Nobody is getting upgraded for having a nice idea, an artist's impression of a new stand, or the potential to have everyone in London come to games. You get marked for what you've done and are doing.

And, based on what is in the public domain, nothing about it is a closed shop except, as per previous statement, foreign clubs whose numbers are now capped.

[RP London]

10 hours ago, dboy said:

But I'll offer a counter to my original point - Saints, Wigan, Leeds, Wire, have got to stop stunting the game so that they remain the Big Cheese. They are terrified of not being the biggest fish.

They say they want to grow the game (but not if it means someone becomes bigger than them).

They do NOT have the game as their priority, they have themselves.

When SL suggested central ticketing, marketing, corporate, merch etc, they closed ranks and shot it down =, because it meant smaller clubs would benefit from their strength.

They didn't see that every club being strong made every club stronger.

And they probably still don't.

Good post..  totally agree again..  

[Derwent Parker]

10 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

No worse than a club finishing 5 th winning SL 

Dont understand that answer at all??

I said

IMG system might mean a team finishing 9th in SL might be relegated.

Under the IMG proposals - unlikely but possible you could have 11 'A's and a 'B' and the 'B' finishes 9th or higher.

Then Fev or Fax or Batley etc becomes an 'A' in Champ whether they win Champ or not - at end of season they will automatically go into SL at the expense of the 'B' when the gradings are adjusted.

The criteria says SL will be 12, and all 'A's guaranteed their place and will only be expanded when there are more than 12 'A's.

Similar could apply if there were less than 11 'A's but 3 of the 'A's were bottom 3 then the new Champ 'A' team whoever that may be would take the place of the lowest 'B' which could be 9th

So I dont know how you compare that to "a club finishing 5 th winning SL "

[Derwent Parker]

10 hours ago, Chrispmartha said:

The play offs were boring because of the format - 8 teams is way too many.

Im not blaming the championship clubs Im blaming the format.

its gone, finished, in the bin, it was rubbish.

and SL is more boring without it

[Derwent Parker]

10 hours ago, Chrispmartha said:

Unfortunately for you the clubs decided otherwise.

It detracted from the pinnacle of the sport

No all it did by stopping it was protect the bottom of SL more

[Derwent Parker]

5 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I would love to see this removed from the clubs altogether. Owned and managed by the RFL is the best model in my opinion. Leave the clubs to focus on the top end of the sport. Allow the RFL to manage pathway opportunities for young players and coaches.

You cant give points etc for having academies or A teams etc - when the RFL decides who can or cannot have them.

I might be wrong but I believe a team [might be Keighley ] had one and was told to get rid of it??

No doubt someone will put me right about this.

[Derwent Parker]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

If I am one of the 'commited' you refer to then I stand guilty as charged. Can you envisage the reason why I have been involved in this sport for 60 years I played, coached, was in club administration all in the community game, but always there as been my passion for my home town professional club, the town I was born in and still live there.

That being the case the solution you refer to that livened up the game for a few weeks I found was most welcome and exciting to be a part off, I loved it to be playing against and test yourself with other teams we would not useually play against I found it to be exhilarating.

Now I don't know with you living in relative isolation away from the sport that you can feel that passion for any club, I actually feel sorry for you if that is the case because you exhibit and portray a great depth of feeling for the sport, but please do not knock us that centre our affection and dedication to one club.

You are correct I was so caught up in the involvement and participation of the M8's that what was happening elsewhere at the same time i.e. the battle for Old Trafford and the GF was totally secondary to me, I have followed this team through a lot of very very lean times and a few good ones, and they will always be at the centre of my attention in the professional game, and there are thousands like me scattered around the sport.

But do not ever accuse me of not having a deep feeling for the game as a whole, I find those who wish for a closed shop top division scenario absolutely abhorrent, they know full well, the consequences that will bring with reduced funding and probably none at all to follow for the lower leagues which will result in closures, and what ever happened to the "Big Rugby League Family" in every family there are those who do good who look after the ones not so fortunate, and I frown when I hear fans of SL clubs saying the TV money should be ours we have earned it "bhugger" the rest, I would share the funding out much more evenly than it is today.

And the whole of the game includes the lower divisions and the community side of the game of which I am not active any more except for just spectating but I will always take in at least one game each weekend and assist were I can, this part of the sport is as essential as the top of the pyramid, there are many who write on these pages who will have access to a local community club but in all probability never venture anywhere near, but tell everyone they are a great fan of the game.

I could go on but I won't and I can't offer a whole-game-solution as you put it, can anyone? And in that I include IMG I, I can forsee that whatever they bring to the table there will be casualties and we will lose clubs not immediately but it will come, if that is a "whole game solution" then so be it. 

Nice one Harry

[The Blues Ox]

11 hours ago, dboy said:

Stepping back a little, isn't the whole point of the grading exercise to show where we need to be better?

If we all got given the grades we think we deserve, how would we ever move forward?

Won't being told exactly where we are lacking make us do something about it?

You are right but just going back to the Keighley they are already behind the 8 ball because of something they literally have no control over. That to me seems ridiculous. Im pretty meh over expansion teams but I do believe if they are to gain a place then it should be on merit rather than where they are based and this system allows for a team to score more than an expansion club across the board but the expansion club sneak in because of where they are based so maybe we don't end up with the best 12 clubs in SL.

11 hours ago, Chrispmartha said:

Yes it is, the playoffs decide the winner, the elite, its the right thing to create excitement at the top, that’s the pinaccle (i.e the dog)

Creating excitement in who gets relegated is the tail, the focus should be making the top the exciting bit.

At the end of the day that was probably the main reason this sytem went, because the top end of SL is stale as hell and it put focus on the bottom end of the table and created a bit of excitment around that.

11 hours ago, Chrispmartha said:

Unfortunately for you the clubs decided otherwise.

It detracted from the pinnacle of the sport

Did all the clubs vote against it or was it another case that the SL clubs had two votes? I genuinly do not know the answer to this.

5 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I would love to see this removed from the clubs altogether. Owned and managed by the RFL is the best model in my opinion. Leave the clubs to focus on the top end of the sport. Allow the RFL to manage pathway opportunities for young players and coaches.

I wouldn't trust the RFL to run me a hot bath nevermind to manage pathway opportunites for young players. I'm involved in the girls/ladies game and the RFL managed pathways are abysmal and their selection process really needs looking at. They have players for a number of weeks and at the end of it can't even provide feedback on every player. 

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

If I am one of the 'commited' you refer to then I stand guilty as charged. Can you envisage the reason why I have been involved in this sport for 60 years I played, coached, was in club administration all in the community game, but always there as been my passion for my home town professional club, the town I was born in and still live there.

That being the case the solution you refer to that livened up the game for a few weeks I found was most welcome and exciting to be a part off, I loved it to be playing against and test yourself with other teams we would not useually play against I found it to be exhilarating.

Now I don't know with you living in relative isolation away from the sport that you can feel that passion for any club, I actually feel sorry for you if that is the case because you exhibit and portray a great depth of feeling for the sport, but please do not knock us that centre our affection and dedication to one club.

You are correct I was so caught up in the involvement and participation of the M8's that what was happening elsewhere at the same time i.e. the battle for Old Trafford and the GF was totally secondary to me, I have followed this team through a lot of very very lean times and a few good ones, and they will always be at the centre of my attention in the professional game, and there are thousands like me scattered around the sport.

But do not ever accuse me of not having a deep feeling for the game as a whole, I find those who wish for a closed shop top division scenario absolutely abhorrent, they know full well, the consequences that will bring with reduced funding and probably none at all to follow for the lower leagues which will result in closures, and what ever happened to the "Big Rugby League Family" in every family there are those who do good who look after the ones not so fortunate, and I frown when I hear fans of SL clubs saying the TV money should be ours we have earned it "bhugger" the rest, I would share the funding out much more evenly than it is today.

And the whole of the game includes the lower divisions and the community side of the game of which I am not active any more except for just spectating but I will always take in at least one game each weekend and assist were I can, this part of the sport is as essential as the top of the pyramid, there are many who write on these pages who will have access to a local community club but in all probability never venture anywhere near, but tell everyone they are a great fan of the game.

I could go on but I won't and I can't offer a whole-game-solution as you put it, can anyone? And in that I include IMG I, I can forsee that whatever they bring to the table there will be casualties and we will lose clubs not immediately but it will come, if that is a "whole game solution" then so be it. 

Very nice post harry. 

[Roughyed Rats]

Can anyone explain why there isn’t the equivalent process of ‘places for grades’ between the Championship & League 1? As IMG are looking for a whole game solution to drive up standards, would it not at least show a consistency approach across all of the pro game?

[ATLANTISMAN]

2 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Obviously it was a slight dig at you and a few others - only a slight one - so thanks for responding so fairly.

What I will say is what I have said all along: I don't believe the league structure, any league structure, will, inofitself, fix any issues the game faces. The only caveat to that is that I do think a proper pyramid system starting with the professional game at the top and ending with community games on park pitches would be incredibly helpful.

What I mostly like about what is being proposed here is that it is based on working with what is actually real. Nobody is getting upgraded for having a nice idea, an artist's impression of a new stand, or the potential to have everyone in London come to games. You get marked for what you've done and are doing.

And, based on what is in the public domain, nothing about it is a closed shop except, as per previous statement, foreign clubs whose numbers are now capped.

Nothing will change 100% certain