How do we improve the playing standard of domestic rugby league in France?

[Gerrumonside ref]

There has been a post on the doomed French World Cup thread that says improving the playing standard of the French domestic club rugby league (i.e. developing the competition to a greater professional standard) is the key to bring to unlocking the potential of France as a rugby league playing nation.

How can this be done and what can the English do to help develop things on the path to a fully professional rugby league in France accepting that funds are limited in England itself?

Would partnering SL clubs with an Elite equivalent help (as seen say in a nursery type system in other leagues/sports)?  Are there other ideas and how would they work.

Personally I think money is tight in England so any help is going to have to be a number of small improvements and even getting the ‘buy-in’ of the notion that northern hemisphere development is England’s responsibility and ultimately to England’s long term benefit.

I know there’s a good deal of healthy cynicism over this being England’s ‘job’ and deep concerns over wasting precious funds, but you look at the French World Cup bid reports and subsequent thread - it’s obvious that French rugby league needs help from somewhere.

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Gerrumonside ref

[Jughead]

They invest in youth, youth coaching, facilities and a strategy to develop players and to have a pathway from junior levels to the adult game, whether that’s at Elite 1/2 level or Super League/Championship level. 

[steve oates]

45 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

There has been a post on the doomed French World Cup thread that says improving the playing standard of the French domestic club rugby league (i.e. developing the competition to a greater professional standard) is the key to bring to unlocking the potential of France as a rugby league playing nation.

How can this be done and what can the English do to help develop things on the path to a fully professional rugby league in France accepting that funds are limited in England itself? Would partnering SL clubs with an Elite equivalent help

it’s obvious that French rugby league needs help from somewhere.

 

Given Wakefield may be a "giant" failure this season, Leeds may not get back to the club they once were, Cas are no longer "classy" Huddersfield are sinking from past position and Bradford are now going backwards in the second tier they fell in to it's obvious to me that .........

West Yorkshire Rugby League needs help from somewhere, never mind the Franch

Somethings going wrong in the English game, and my guess is that player quality may be sinking due to the ever contracting numbers of youngsters playing the game. I have no numbers on this but it's clear even soccer isn't producing the English talent it used to, but they have the money to buy abroad.

[ATLANTISMAN]

Funny enough Steve youngsters down in French Catalonia is not the problem plenty of kids playing and to a good standard too.

London right now has loads of young kids playing problem is after there is nowhere to go

 

p 

[gingerjon]

43 minutes ago, steve oates said:

I have no numbers on this but it's clear even soccer isn't producing the English talent it used to, but they have the money to buy abroad.

The women won the Euros and the men were Euros finalists. I think they'll be fine.

[Sports Prophet]

I think it starts with the RFL realising themselves as the governors of the sport in Europe similar to the NRL.

Sure, there is the NZRL, similar to the FFRXIII, but there is no question, RL in the Pacific is owned by the NRL who are running various strategies in various Pacific nations, including NZ, to further their stranglehold as the number 1 sport in the region. Bankrolling or heavily subsidising the Hunters, Silktails, Warriors reserves, on the road Warriors fixtures, international fixtures. Why are they doing this? Because it is in their long term interest to do so.

What certainly did not help the French was allowing Toulouse to drop back down out of SL. A

French international against England in France would have been far more beneficial than the tiny profit derived from hosting the same game at a small ground like Warrington without selling it out.

Exorbitant measures like forcing French teams at lower grades to pay for English teams to travel, or forcing them to stump up mighty deposits to appear in the Challenge Cup are extremely shortsighted and prohibitive measures.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Sports Prophet

[JDR]

2 hours ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Funny enough Steve youngsters down in French Catalonia is not the problem plenty of kids playing and to a good standard too.

London right now has loads of young kids playing problem is after there is nowhere to go

 

p 

Is this the same in other areas of France? France is not short of sporting and athletic raw materials, so I assume the main challenge is putting an effective program together.

Edited May 12, 2023 by JDR
clarity

[Jughead]

3 hours ago, steve oates said:

Given Wakefield may be a "giant" failure this season, Leeds may not get back to the club they once were, Cas are no longer "classy" Huddersfield are sinking from past position and Bradford are now going backwards in the second tier they fell in to it's obvious to me that .........

West Yorkshire Rugby League needs help from somewhere, never mind the Franch

Somethings going wrong in the English game, and my guess is that player quality may be sinking due to the ever contracting numbers of youngsters playing the game. I have no numbers on this but it's clear even soccer isn't producing the English talent it used to, but they have the money to buy abroad.

Leeds - Grand Finalists 2022, Challenge Cup winners 2020. 
Huddersfield - Top three finish in 2022, Challenge Cup Finalist 2022. 
Cas - Challenge Cup Finalists 2021. 

It’s a terrible, terrible period to be a West Yorkshire club. 

[corkonian77]

6 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I think it starts with the RFL realising themselves as the governors of the sport in Europe similar to the NRL.

Sure, there is the NZRL, similar to the FFRXIII, but there is no question, RL in the Pacific is owned by the NRL who are running various strategies in various Pacific nations, including NZ, to further their stranglehold as the number 1 sport in the region. Bankrolling or heavily subsidising the Hunters, Silktails, Warriors reserves, on the road Warriors fixtures, international fixtures. Why are they doing this? Because it is in their long term interest to do so.

What certainly did not help the French was allowing Toulouse to drop back down out of SL. A

French international against England in France would have been far more beneficial than the tiny profit derived from hosting the same game at a small ground like Warrington without selling it out.

Exorbitant measures like forcing French teams at lower grades to pay for English teams to travel, or forcing them to stump up mighty deposits to appear in the Challenge Cup are extremely shortsighted and prohibitive measures.

I think they know it but dont have the resources to achieve it. 

I remember in 2013 The RFL cut the funding of Rugby League Ireland.  The federaton is so poorly financed that it cant update its website. They are still looking for sponsership for the 2021 World cup held in 2022. 

[JM2010]

Is there any chance the top Elite teams could enter the challenge cup again?

[Sports Prophet]

I think the reality to this is a very simple solution. We give the next WC hosting rights to France, where they open up to expressions of interest from cities to host fixtures to demonstrate to the national government how valuable…

…wait, I have some news coming in…

Ahhhh forget it!

[fcl]

The French treizistes we live in the myth of Murdoch and a savior who would come with a wave of a magic wand to allow us to find the glorious past and to compare ourselves again with the other rugby.

Very regularly we have unrealistic or wacky projects (Dayan Project, National Technical Center, Sharks, Toulon etc.) which are supposed to allow us to develop.

But in fact, we don't have any serious studies on our sport, we don't even know what our strengths and weaknesses are !  we don't have a serious and professional approach to the development of our sport, we are content either to copy the ideas of other nations, or to launch projects in a totally empirical way.

I thought that was going to change with Lacoste, which was going to bring us methods from the professional world and big finance: market studies, catchment areas, statistics, etc.

In the end, in addition to being sorcerer's apprentices, they have a total ignorance of the functioning of our sport and its basis.

[RP London]

On 12/05/2023 at 14:30, Sports Prophet said:

I think it starts with the RFL realising themselves as the governors of the sport in Europe similar to the NRL.

Sure, there is the NZRL, similar to the FFRXIII, but there is no question, RL in the Pacific is owned by the NRL who are running various strategies in various Pacific nations, including NZ, to further their stranglehold as the number 1 sport in the region. Bankrolling or heavily subsidising the Hunters, Silktails, Warriors reserves, on the road Warriors fixtures, international fixtures. Why are they doing this? Because it is in their long term interest to do so.

What certainly did not help the French was allowing Toulouse to drop back down out of SL. A

French international against England in France would have been far more beneficial than the tiny profit derived from hosting the same game at a small ground like Warrington without selling it out.

Exorbitant measures like forcing French teams at lower grades to pay for English teams to travel, or forcing them to stump up mighty deposits to appear in the Challenge Cup are extremely shortsighted and prohibitive measures.

If i could stand up and applaud a post I would, but I'm lazy and I'm at work so would give away the fact I'm on the forum... 

When things go bad we too quickly look to retreat.. we want to charge extra etc.. Where as sometimes its a case of invest your way out of it.. good businesses have done it for years.. there is a risk to it of course. 

lack of good enough players to challenge the aussies or to fill 14 teams, so what do we do.. invest more in the heartlands, the very small area that we think we can mine harder.. why? because its easy and it panders to those that always call for it.. what do we really need to do? spread the net wider so that you catch more fish that you wouldn't have caught before. nope lets pull all the DO officers that were doing a really good job early 2000s and now look where we are.. i know funding got cut but that wasn't the only place to get funding, where there is a will etc.. 

people not turning up to watch international games? lets put them in awkward places at awkward times.. 

want to develop another nation? continually ask them for money, don't do the easy thing and give them a game at home to market and sell to sponsors etc that could potentially bring in more money to their game and the game in Europe as a whole.. 

If you look at the NRL teams, for how many years have they actively scouted new Zealand? brought over youth players to finish off their "schooling" and making that Kiwi side (and now by the nature of the New Zealand demographics the Pacific Island teams) stronger as they go?? over simplification yes but why not make each Super League team have 2 scholarship (or whatever they are called now) players from France in their system. 

If clubs wont do it themselves then encourage them (I would also look at things for non heartland players too but it would need more time to set the system up).. salary cap exemptions for French players etc, none of which cost the RFL anything but would potentially benefit the French team and the French game. 

So many things could be done with incentives built around the salary cap rather than cold hard cash but, as with so many things, its effort and thought that needs to be put in, and one thing we know of the RFL is why do the hard yards when you can do the easy ones.. no one wants the bad thing to happen on their watch so they sticky plaster over it, yet all their names will be associated with the demise.. we just need one that wants the great thing to happen on their watch.. where are they?

[RP London]

On 12/05/2023 at 13:39, gingerjon said:

The women won the Euros and the men were Euros finalists. I think they'll be fine.

 

On 12/05/2023 at 16:46, Jughead said:

Leeds - Grand Finalists 2022, Challenge Cup winners 2020. 
Huddersfield - Top three finish in 2022, Challenge Cup Finalist 2022. 
Cas - Challenge Cup Finalists 2021. 

It’s a terrible, terrible period to be a West Yorkshire club. 

I'll say this quietly as I've only seen it because you quoted it... but the key was in "I have no numbers" so no proof but i'm going to say something unsubstantiated anyway, its why he's on ignore.. its just so much easier.

Edited May 16, 2023 by RP London

[steve oates]

15 minutes ago, RP London said:

I'll say this quietly as I've only seen it because you quoted it... but the key was in "I have no numbers" so no proof but i'm going to say something unsubstantiated anyway, its why he's on ignore.. its just so much easier.

Corrections welcome but it appears in terms of "Numbers" (from Wiki) 248,000 people play Rugby League in total in England, and in France the number is 40,000.

That's just the numbers, whether quality French RL players (and I was kindly assured there were a good number) get picked off by the much bigger and wealthy French Rugby Union, I would hope our French friends can confirm what the reality is.  There were of course the times when great English RL players were picked off by Union.

The topic is "How do we improve the French", the logical answer is probably get more youngsters playing RL in France instead of Rugby Union and pay the best players more than Rugby Union??

I think this is the answer, do I get a prize?

[Harry Stottle]

On 12/05/2023 at 11:59, Jughead said:

They invest

Where will they suddenly get the funding from that has deprived the French doing as you say for a number of years, it is not the responsibility of the British game to provide it as no doubt some will suggest.

[Jughead]

9 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Where will they suddenly get the funding from that has deprived the French doing as you say for a number of years, it is not the responsibility of the British game to provide it as no doubt some will suggest.

It’s up to them to find it. Rather than standing around doing the usual Rugby League of “where does the money come from?”, go and find some. 

[Harry Stottle]

On 12/05/2023 at 14:30, Sports Prophet said:

I think it starts with the RFL realising themselves as the governors of the sport in Europe similar to the NRL.

Sure, there is the NZRL, similar to the FFRXIII, but there is no question, RL in the Pacific is owned by the NRL who are running various strategies in various Pacific nations, including NZ, to further their stranglehold as the number 1 sport in the region. Bankrolling or heavily subsidising the Hunters, Silktails, Warriors reserves, on the road Warriors fixtures, international fixtures. Why are they doing this? Because it is in their long term interest to do so.

What certainly did not help the French was allowing Toulouse to drop back down out of SL. A

French international against England in France would have been far more beneficial than the tiny profit derived from hosting the same game at a small ground like Warrington without selling it out.

Exorbitant measures like forcing French teams at lower grades to pay for English teams to travel, or forcing them to stump up mighty deposits to appear in the Challenge Cup are extremely shortsighted and prohibitive measures.

Money dear heart, making a comparrison with the NRL and the RFL is financially incomprehensible it is like comparing someone with a holiday home in the Maldives and a caravan owner in Filey.

And Toulouse was not allowed to drop back into the Championship, they managed it all by themselves by not gaining enough competition points, what would you have done decryed the winners of the Championship promotion or relegated a team finishing higher than Toulouse?

Again it comes down to money there is not enough to have more than 12 teams in SL, IMG know this and the criteria is formulated in such a way that there will never be more than 12 A Grades, in fact if we get to 8/9 I will be surprised.

I can't wait for the 'Mock' gradings to come out this year.

[Harry Stottle]

10 minutes ago, Jughead said:

It’s up to them to find it. Rather than standing around doing the usual Rugby League of “where does the money come from?”, go and find some. 

Big Call Juggy, so you agree they have sat on their 'Brown Ones' and waited for it to come to them?

[RP London]

23 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Money dear heart, making a comparrison with the NRL and the RFL is financially incomprehensible it is like comparing someone with a holiday home in the Maldives and a caravan owner in Filey.

And Toulouse was not allowed to drop back into the Championship, they managed it all by themselves by not gaining enough competition points, what would you have done decryed the winners of the Championship promotion or relegated a team finishing higher than Toulouse?

Again it comes down to money there is not enough to have more than 12 teams in SL, IMG know this and the criteria is formulated in such a way that there will never be more than 12 A Grades, in fact if we get to 8/9 I will be surprised.

I can't wait for the 'Mock' gradings to come out this year.

while an awful lot does come down to money there is stuff that can be done that doesnt actually cost anyone anything.. its about encouraging teams to build the french teams up more... seeing that the more ponds you have to fish in the greater the catch may be etc.. 

its not all about paying money over its about using incentives, as a sport we have a salary cap (agree with it or not) that can be used that doesnt cost the RFL a penny. and thats just one off the top of my head, I am sure there are more given time.. 

Its the same with England as well (and wales) where there are an awful lot of untapped areas that could produce good players.. we worry about a shrinking pool yet we do little about it.. or if someone does its all "what about the heartlands"..  Thats where my frustration comes.. 

[redjonn]

First SL has to decide if its a European SL, Anglo French League or UK League competition.   Deciding that decides where your focus should be.

I think in France the focus should be strengthening the Elite structure with a goal that when strong enough Catalan and Toulouse are part of that.  Then we can have a Anglo French play off structure -  Long way off yes.  I am not sure divorcing Catalan,Toulouse or whatever other French team that may emerge at a similar level off into effectively another countries league helps french RL in the longer run.

In another similar thread it has been discussed around using Cap to incentive French players into SL clubs and in reverse those Clubs helping in development programmes in France..

Edited May 16, 2023 by redjonn

[GUBRATS]

A WC in Quatar followed by a WC in France , the first funding the second 

[RP London]

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

A WC in Quatar followed by a WC in France , the first funding the second 

thats the way it should be... but in reality the first will fund a right good knees up for the IRL in a big hotel.. then we'll be skint again and need Saudi money. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by RP London
sp

[Henson Park Old Firm]

How is the French XIII perceived in Australia? And the English XIII?

To be honest, most Aussies think the Super League is now ######. It wasn't always the case, but the people who run the Super League let it decline and the English get very angry when the Australians ridicule it. The good news is that it can be fixed and as an international commentator I would love to play a part in its long-awaited revival in the 2020s. As for the game in France, well I never have seen with my own eyes, except on television, of course. The Elite 1 and others will continue to play an important role, but this footprint needs to be developed, just like in the UK, and it requires serious investment and resources.

What would you do if you were president of the FFR XIII to develop your sport?

If I were president or general manager, I would start by considerably improving my French! But in terms of what would have to be done, I would set up a real television contract for your Elite 1 and broadcast a highlight match of the day in both French and English. This last measure would make it possible to reach a whole new audience, something that I have already raised with the FFR XIII, but which has not yielded anything so far. I would make sure the Elite 1 has a main sponsor and the same for your Elite 2 and the other competitions, including the Women's XIII. I would make sure France has a strong international program that includes overseas tours to toughen up your players against quality opposition. I would launch Rugby League in French Polynesia and secure the necessary investment and resources to ensure Pacific Treize's inclusion in the Queensland Cup. I would bring Toulouse back to the Super League and make sure they stay there through licensing, and possibly add teams from Paris, like we had before, and probably Bordeaux.

I would expect to see the Super League broadcast on French TV every week, in French, showcasing the French teams. I would also get investment in player development pipelines in French-speaking countries and territories. Not just in the Pacific, but also in Africa, because I see Africa as a future source of great talent for the best players in the Super League and potential international players for France. Having already advised the Minister for Sport of Australia, who later became our High Commissioner to the UK, I would also work to improve relations with the government as it is obvious that this is a weak link for the FFR XIII given the political changes of recent months. If the relationship improved, we could see the French government or even regional authorities supporting on-the-ground development workers across the country, enabling more French children, boys and girls, to actually play rugby league. I could go on, but here are some elements to launch the renaissance of French rugby league.

 

 

https://treizemondial.fr/jason-costigan-la-credibilite-du-rugby-a-xiii-francais-est-partie-en-fumee-grace-a-ce-fiasco/

[Barley Mow]

8 minutes ago, Henson Park Old Firm said:

How is the French XIII perceived in Australia? And the English XIII?

To be honest, most Aussies think the Super League is now ######. It wasn't always the case, but the people who run the Super League let it decline and the English get very angry when the Australians ridicule it. The good news is that it can be fixed and as an international commentator I would love to play a part in its long-awaited revival in the 2020s. As for the game in France, well I never have seen with my own eyes, except on television, of course. The Elite 1 and others will continue to play an important role, but this footprint needs to be developed, just like in the UK, and it requires serious investment and resources.

What would you do if you were president of the FFR XIII to develop your sport?

If I were president or general manager, I would start by considerably improving my French! But in terms of what would have to be done, I would set up a real television contract for your Elite 1 and broadcast a highlight match of the day in both French and English. This last measure would make it possible to reach a whole new audience, something that I have already raised with the FFR XIII, but which has not yielded anything so far. I would make sure the Elite 1 has a main sponsor and the same for your Elite 2 and the other competitions, including the Women's XIII. I would make sure France has a strong international program that includes overseas tours to toughen up your players against quality opposition. I would launch Rugby League in French Polynesia and secure the necessary investment and resources to ensure Pacific Treize's inclusion in the Queensland Cup. I would bring Toulouse back to the Super League and make sure they stay there through licensing, and possibly add teams from Paris, like we had before, and probably Bordeaux.

I would expect to see the Super League broadcast on French TV every week, in French, showcasing the French teams. I would also get investment in player development pipelines in French-speaking countries and territories. Not just in the Pacific, but also in Africa, because I see Africa as a future source of great talent for the best players in the Super League and potential international players for France. Having already advised the Minister for Sport of Australia, who later became our High Commissioner to the UK, I would also work to improve relations with the government as it is obvious that this is a weak link for the FFR XIII given the political changes of recent months. If the relationship improved, we could see the French government or even regional authorities supporting on-the-ground development workers across the country, enabling more French children, boys and girls, to actually play rugby league. I could go on, but here are some elements to launch the renaissance of French rugby league.

 

 

https://treizemondial.fr/jason-costigan-la-credibilite-du-rugby-a-xiii-francais-est-partie-en-fumee-grace-a-ce-fiasco/

Isn't that just the same wish list that is already always given when this subject is discussed? The same things FFR XIII already aspire to and the same things that are listed by us chancers and nobodies on here?

Things like bringing Toulouse back to the Super League and making sure they stay there through licensing aren't within the gift of the president of the French federation and Mr Costigan doesn't seem to suggest any way to achieve any of his goals.

How would he convince someone to sponsor Elite 1, beyond what FFR XIII already try?

How would he secure a TV deal, beyond what FFR XIII already try?

Surely the existing administrators are aware that these things would help - there just isn't the required level of interest in the sport for it to be worthwhile for the third parties who would need to come on board.

I don't have any answers myself, but without increasing the numbers of players and fans that just seems like a wish list that couldn't be resourced.