Fri 9th June : SL : St Helens v Wigan Warriors KO 20:00 (SKY)

[Damien]

Saints much too good tonight. Their attacking shape was fantastic and they will take some beating on that form. Welsby is just immense and Roby rolled back the years, again.

Wigan way off again and the powder puff pack was on display again, they just couldn't cope with the big Saints forwards. We desperately need a 6 too. There's so much that needs to be worked on.

[JohnM]

11 minutes ago, EagleEyePie said:

What can you really say about a game that goes exactly how you'd expect it to. I've been saying it since the start of the season that our pack isn't good enough and we haven't recruited aggressively enough to be able to compete with the best teams in the competition.

Ellis has been playing some decent rugby this year so no complaints there, but aside from him our front row was Byrne, Singleton, Mago and Hill. Of course we couldn't compete with Saints. Of course we got beaten with ease down the middle. That is not a pack that is good enough to mix it with quality sides. This was known at the start of the season and while it's a shame that we're missing Havard (definitely our best prop) and Cooper (wasn't in great form when he got injured but still decent) it's no excuse to keep sub-standard players around.

This is what's frustrating about our recruitment. The club was thinking of offloading Mago to Wakefield but decided not to when Bateman left. Why? What's does it matter. Get rid and get better. Singleton has been allowed to leave and was snapped up by Salford for next year. So why didn't we try to get rid of him at the end of last season and sign better? Clearly there were interested clubs. We just keep average players around to see out their contract and then use a lack of cap space as an excuse for not being able to sign more players.

We can't realistically expect much better until Havard returns. Isa and KPP might improve our right edge a little, but that still doesn't help the middles. We've got a handful of options at 6 but none of them are good enough. We've got plenty of options at 13 but not enough quality at prop. We've got 4 hookers and none have excelled (possibly because the pack is poor). Just nowhere near aggressive and ambitious enough in recruitment so we end up with the same old problems.

It's not only about the players, though. As a team, there's no leadership.  The shame, the ignomy of being lower in the table than Leigh has to set warning bells ringing at the club.

Edited June 9, 2023 by JohnM

[Harry Stottle]

54 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Another week of “give it to Jai and Bevan and hope something happens” working as well as ever, I see. 

How can you say that, Matty Peet is the best coach in SL - so I have been told.

[Jughead]

As I said before the game, both teams’ strengths are the weaknesses of their opponents and it showed. Saints’ pack far too good but there was the odd burst of pace from the Wigan backline that threatened to cause problems. 

Ultimately, a good win for Saints. Five wins from the past six games has been the turnaround required. 

[StandOffHalf]

As a neutral, it's a joy watching the cohesiveness of Saints. Welsby, Lomax, Makinson and Roby all sizzling. Their defence shut Wigan down, but it was still a lot of fun as a game, for its energy and passion.

The anti-verbals group mightn't have been too keen on Welsby dishing a gobful up on a grounded Miski though...

[Harry Stottle]

17 minutes ago, EagleEyePie said:

What can you really say about a game that goes exactly how you'd expect it to. I've been saying it since the start of the season that our pack isn't good enough and we haven't recruited aggressively enough to be able to compete with the best teams in the competition.

Ellis has been playing some decent rugby this year so no complaints there, but aside from him our front row was Byrne, Singleton, Mago and Hill. Of course we couldn't compete with Saints. Of course we got beaten with ease down the middle. That is not a pack that is good enough to mix it with quality sides. This was known at the start of the season and while it's a shame that we're missing Havard (definitely our best prop) and Cooper (wasn't in great form when he got injured but still decent) it's no excuse to keep sub-standard players around.

This is what's frustrating about our recruitment. The club was thinking of offloading Mago to Wakefield but decided not to when Bateman left. Why? What's does it matter. Get rid and get better. Singleton has been allowed to leave and was snapped up by Salford for next year. So why didn't we try to get rid of him at the end of last season and sign better? Clearly there were interested clubs. We just keep average players around to see out their contract and then use a lack of cap space as an excuse for not being able to sign more players.

We can't realistically expect much better until Havard returns. Isa and KPP might improve our right edge a little, but that still doesn't help the middles. We've got a handful of options at 6 but none of them are good enough. We've got plenty of options at 13 but not enough quality at prop. We've got 4 hookers and none have excelled (possibly because the pack is poor). Just nowhere near aggressive and ambitious enough in recruitment so we end up with the same old problems.

I have always liked your resume of games Eagle,  you do have capable players at your club, they showed it to when they went to Leigh and next to Warrington and won both of those, but if you do not mind me saying you never seem to criticise your coaching, last season of the back of two players you did very well and the coach got loads of accolades, you have improved your squad for this year but those two same players are not having the same input, it seems that Wigan's reliance on the back of those two is effecting them badly.

[Harry Stottle]

16 minutes ago, JohnM said:

It's not only about the players, though. As a team, there's no leadership.  The shame, the ignomy of being lower in the table than Leigh has to set warning bells ringing at the club.

Bloody Smashing.

[EagleEyePie]

24 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I have always liked your resume of games Eagle,  you do have capable players at your club, they showed it to when they went to Leigh and next to Warrington and won both of those, but if you do not mind me saying you never seem to criticise your coaching, last season of the back of two players you did very well and the coach got loads of accolades, you have improved your squad for this year but those two same players are not having the same input, it seems that Wigan's reliance on the back of those two is effecting them badly.

I don't criticise the coach because our problem isn't really anything to do with the coach. Lam is doing fine at Leigh but couldn't get Wigan to play consistently well because our pack was poor. Matt Peet has the same issues so he'll get pretty much the same results. We're reliant on Field and French because they are the only players who can really give us an outlet even when the pack is second best. There isn't realistically much more you can get out of players like Singleton and Mago to allow us to do anything different.

We also haven't improved our squad this year. That's the main issue. We've recruited two recognised centres which does nothing to address our biggest issue for the last few years, and allowed our marquee signing to leave without being replaced. King has had his moments (mostly through strong carries) and Wardle is a classy player when he can get the ball, but we won the Challenge Cup last year with makeshift centres. Improving our centres and doing nothing to our front row is like putting a spoiler on the back of a car with a one litre engine.

Against Leigh we performed so well because of the outstanding performances of Havard and Ellis and a right edge of King (on the wing), Pearce-Paul and Isa that was defensively sound. Two good props playing well means if our other middles like Byrne, Cooper, Smithies and Shorrocks have above average games we can compete pretty well, but the depth isn't there.

Take away the defensive reliability of Cooper, the all round play of Havard, remove Isa from the right edge and you start to see how lacking in depth Wigan are. With all our top players fit and playing well we can compete well enough, but the moment things go wrong we're exposed for the fairly average team that we are.

Edited June 9, 2023 by EagleEyePie

[Chris22]

When you looked at the benches of the two sides, Saints had a big advantage. The Wigan bench would have needed a mighty effort to contend with Mata'utai, Bell and Paasi and so it proved. Wigan didn't help themselves by not playing French at full back. For me, he should be the first name on the teamsheet, at full back, and everyone else fits around him.

Our defence has been good all year and in the last few weeks our attack has started to click again. It makes some of ours fans early season hysteria look as ridiculous as it was.  Pleased to see Welsby coming into form too after struggling a little at the start of the season.

With it being so tight at the top, it's a really open competition this year!

[yipyee]

1 hour ago, Jughead said:

Radlinski is made of Teflon. How he’s still in a job is mind boggling. Their recruitment and retention has been rubbish for years. 

The won the CC last year...

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

2 hours ago, Leonard said:

At least i rediscovered Popchips from the Hundred. 

And Discos

[Ragingbull]

28 minutes ago, yipyee said:

The won the CC last year...

And finished second in the league.  Theres no pleaseing some people is there. 

[JohnM]

No, not when it comes to losing to St Helens and having Leigh higher than you in the league.

 

[Harry Stottle]

5 hours ago, JohnM said:

No, not when it comes to losing to St Helens and having Leigh higher than you in the league.

 

I am sure I heard reference that on the Dead Sea Scrolls it mentions that It is a god given right that Wigan are/should be successful every season.🫢

[JohnM]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

I am sure I heard reference that on the Dead Sea Scrolls it mentions that It is a god given right that Wigan are/should be successful every season.🫢

True!

[Exiled Wiganer]

I am hopeful that writing this will not lead to a torrent of personal abuse again from Saints fans, but it was interesting hearing Scunthorpe’s take on the match. He was clear that Saints are the best team in the comp and WIgan are nowhere near them, in large part because our pack is so rubbish. Saints remain favourites for the GF, and, with the other teams having shown their flaws while they got their act together, the quadruple remains on. 

After so many years of Saints being a better run club with better recruitment and retention, it is a damning indictment of Wigan that we are again so far behind them. And have been for pretty the entire Super League, save for a brief period where 2 exceptional (in their way) coaches made a difference: MaGuire and Cunningham. EEP above covers the specifics around WIgan’s pack, but these are manifestations of systemic failure. 

We were taught a salutary lesson, and Saints have again shown the year in year out gap between them and us (and, I suspect the rest). Welsby is justified at laughing at our players and our fans, he can’t believe how bad we are and how easy he finds it. 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Exiled Wiganer

[Davo5]

Worst Wigan pack I can remember,Radlinski has wasted quota spots on Ellis,Mago & Isa & has left us trying to fit 2 fullbacks into the spine due to Cust being injured & out of form.

 

[Jughead]

10 hours ago, yipyee said:

The won the CC last year...

And read what the Wigan fans are saying. Players like Mago, Ellis, Isa, Thornley, Singleton and Miski have no right being near a Wigan side or taking up quota spots in some cases, too. It’s been plainly obvious that Wigan’s pack has been light for years but little has been done to combat that. 

[dkw]

34 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Worst Wigan pack I can remember,Radlinski has wasted quota spots on Ellis,Mago & Isa & has left us trying to fit 2 fullbacks into the spine due to Cust being injured & out of form.

 

Wigan last night looked a pretty average, workmanlike side with 2 outstanding players that if you stop them you beat them. 

[Davo5]

3 minutes ago, dkw said:

Wigan last night looked a pretty average, workmanlike side with 2 outstanding players that if you stop them you beat them. 

But neither of them are halfbacks which added to a pack that regularly gets beaten up is a recipe for mid table mediocrity.

[bobbruce]

19 minutes ago, dkw said:

Wigan last night looked a pretty average, workmanlike side with 2 outstanding players that if you stop them you beat them. 

Makes you wonder how much cap is being spent on those two and whether it could be better used elsewhere. I think the answer is fairly obvious but probably unpopular one of them needs to leave and his money used to bolster the squad where needed. If it was me I’d keep French and let Field go. 

Edited June 10, 2023 by bobbruce

[Davo5]

14 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Makes you wonder how much cap is being spent on those two and whether it could be better used elsewhere. I think the answer is fairly obvious but probably unpopular one of them needs to leave and his money used to bolster the squad where needed. If it was me I’d keep French and let Field go. 

Field was a NSW Cup player,I doubt he’s on big money.

[bobbruce]

1 minute ago, Davo5 said:

Field was a NSW Cup player,I doubt he’s on big money.

When he came but you don’t think he’s had an upgrade after being the best player in the comp. Fair play if Wigan are getting him on the cheap but I doubt it. 

[Davo5]

18 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

When he came but you don’t think he’s had an upgrade after being the best player in the comp. Fair play if Wigan are getting him on the cheap but I doubt it. 

An upgrade yes but he wouldn’t have been on a lot to start with,we’ve been shopping in the bargain basement for years.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Davo5

[Damien]

I think French and Field are fantastic players and are both great to watch. They are however very similar and I don't think either are particularly effective away from the full back role. Yes they will always score great tries wherever they are on the field but a top winger can offer more on the wing and a top 6 can certainly offer more as a playmaker. Having them both in the team is not particularly good from a team structure point of view and is one of the reasons our attack often looks all over the place. The trouble is you can't leave either out because of the quality they bring but sometimes less is more.

French would be on a fair wedge now, not sure about Field as he wouldn't have come for much but I imagine he'd have been upgraded on the back of last season. It's a lot of money on 2 very similar players that play best in the same position when there are more pressing areas that need fixing.